Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Presumably because it told them they’d won. That their generation had “solved civilisation!” ... and as the children of a generation who’d fought a very tangible victory against a very obvious evil - and who’d presumably grown up being told all the things younger generations get told by older ones about being lazy and spoiled, except with the backing of a huge global war behind it - it allowed them to finally feel really good about their achievements, or lack of them...
Or maybe not, I dunno. That’s just a quick pop psychology reading I’ve pulled out of my arse, but it sounds good, dunnit?
If the Lib Dems want to retain their credentials as a Remain party above all else then their focus needs to be entirely on that: their sudden pivot to Corbyn being just as bad as No Deal is an awful look for them. They've been calling on Corbyn to take charge for essentially the past two years...and yet now refuse to back him when for all intents and purposes he is willing to do that, even if tentatively and for his own self-gain. Whenever the Lib Dems are slated for their coalition with the Tories they regularly say that they had to put aside the interests of the party for the country...this is now a much more heightened version of that same argument, which holds higher consequences and would also be for a shorter period of time.
And they seem to be forgetting that they're just not all that relevant in parliament in the grand scheme of things. They have a remarkably small number of MP's compared to Labour and so their bargaining power only goes so far.
And they seem to be forgetting that they're just not all that relevant in parliament in the grand scheme of things. They have a remarkably small number of MP's compared to Labour and so their bargaining power only goes so far.
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It's baffling. Their recent polling seems to have gone to their head. Like...I sympathise with their problems with Corbyn, because for the most part he has been shite on the issue and his campaigning during the referendum in 2016 wasn't good, but if your argument since then he been that he needs to solidly back No Deal and join a Remain alliance or something of that ilk, then this should be a victory for you today. You've got what you wanted!
The calls for Corbyn to stand down and for some random backbencher to take the job are just extremely bizarre. Labour should be expected to cooperate to stop Brexit or to implement a neutered version, but they shouldn't be expected to entirely abandon their own philosophy as a party and they shouldn't have to change their leader when they're the kingmakers here. Again, the Lib Dems were ten times more conciliatory to the Tories than this in 2010 when they had four times the MP's.
It’s is one of the most frustrating things about the Remain movement in general. It’s constantly telling everybody very loudly that they’re all idiots unless they do exactly what they want, without having any real mandate or authority to do so, and then seem perpetually baffled and even outraged when people won’t simply just do it.
Leave won the Referendum, Corbyn has won two Leadership contests, and yet everyone needs to sit down and listen to the sensible adults in C̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶U̶K̶ the Lib Dems because they say so...
And they’re completely oblivious to the optics of this, because Gary Linekar and James O Brien are on their side, or something.
Leave won the Referendum, Corbyn has won two Leadership contests, and yet everyone needs to sit down and listen to the sensible adults in C̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶U̶K̶ the Lib Dems because they say so...
And they’re completely oblivious to the optics of this, because Gary Linekar and James O Brien are on their side, or something.
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All that’s really great guys, apart from the one small detail that Swinson pointed out that everyone seems to be overlooking, that moderate Tories are not about to overthrow their own government just to see it replaced by Jeremy Corbyn.
But Gary Linekar eats nothing but Walkers Crisps so how can you trust that his judgement is good for you?
But the Tories have a threadbare governing mandate - and some of the Remain Tories still with the party have tried to pass themselves off as impassioned Remainers. If they are wanting to stand up to that conviction then they should be backing Corbyn and Swinson should be absolutely hounding them for it.
And it's not to mention that when asked whether she would prefer No Deal to a Corbyn government she was seemingly hesitant. Again, her actual power here is minimal - working with Corbyn is surely the strongest chance she's got of going against a No Deal Brexit. Labour obviously aren't going to get rid of their own leader to placate a party with less than 15-20 MP's.
Optics.
"Please remember we exist"
"Please remember we exist"
Mike Gapes would be a good pornstar name
It is a stunt though. It's all about the GE. Highly tedious. They're all laying groundwork to blame each other for no deal. Cnuts the lot of them.
"Please remember we exist"
Who the hell is FNC?
"Please remember we exist"
How is Jeremy offering the surest way to prevent a No Deal Brexit ?
- is he
a) going to sign the Withdrawal Agreement
or
b) Revoke A50
No, I thought not.
For all their faults Labour have now committed to a no-deal Brexit. Corbyn's been shite on the issue for the most part but he's still leader of the opposition and so is the kingmaker here. The Lib Dems will have to work with him if they want to stop it.
Yes but words mean nothing, the LibDems obviously don't trust him and they're probably not alone.
But what action is going to be taken to stop it. A GE and even a referendum would not stop it, and a fantasy deal certainly won't. There are only two ways to stop it which I listed above.
They obviously don't trust him, and with good reason. He's been crap on the EU for the most part and has an incredibly Eurosceptic history. But all the same he's the leader of the largest Remain party (generally speaking) and thus they have to work with him.
They've been arguing for him to be more solidly Remain from the start...but now he's actually adopting a position they like, that's not enough? Do they expect him to just stand down? If so they're being remarkably naive/cynical/both. Again, the Lib Dems command about 2% of Westminster MP's. They don't have any substantive power here.
There are plenty of Remain Tory MP's who have set out their EU credentials thus far. Certainly enough to bring down a hard Brexit-leaning government. If they aren't willing to back Corbyn here then (like Swinson) a no-deal Brexit clearly doesn't bother them as much as they're claiming it does.
But which Tories are going to back Corbyn as PM? Need over ten I think.
I may not have the maths exactly here but isn't the current Tory working majority incredibly threadbare and basically only one or two MP's away from breaking down? And if that was the case, wouldn't that potentially be enough to at least bring down the government and force either a change of government or election?
But there are quite a number of MPs who are independent and with no intention of voting for Corbyn as PM. That's why there's a distinction between a no confidence motion in Boris (could well pass) and a confidence motion in Corbyn (won't). Corbyn's doing this for the politics, and to be fair it's pretty smart. As I said earlier though, I'm not sure why the Lib Dems don't back him, then when it fails ask why he's not stepping aside for others to try (answer being obvious).
Agree with most of what you say but looking from the outside, firstly Labour does not look like a Remain party and secondly his proposal looks like a cheap way of trying to get to no.10. If he wants to look like a remain party he should abandon his "we can negotiate a better deal" rubbish and actually go all out remain.
Fox News Corporation?
Grieve, Spelman, Letwin, Boles have confirmed they'll meet with Corbyn to discuss his proposal. Guto Bebb also said that he'd consider backing the proposal. The SNP, Green Party and Plaid Cymru have all displayed a willingness to discuss it. The idea that the government would have to be led by some backbench MP like Clarke or Harman is a Lib Dem fantasy derived from their overriding hostility to Corbyn.
Isn't it Ken Clarke who doesn't own a mobile phone and so Rory Stewart repeatedly had to send people looking for him to make sure he voted in the leadership ballots?
Think LibDems will back down, as they seem isolated in their stance. Even their new MP thinks it is the pragmatic thing to do.
Yeah, it has not been a good day for the Lib Dems at all. Well done to the Labour leadership for once. Whether Swinson will actually yield on her unwillingness to countenance Corbyn as the leader of a temporary alliance remains to be seen though. My instinct is no but perhaps internal pressure as No Deal edges ever closer may force her hand.
I didn't know this history
Spelman has said there are no circumstance under which she’d vote for Corbyn as PM. The others have just said they’ll meet with him to discuss possible options, nothing more. Bebb is the only one who has sounded remotely like he might be a potential.
Even when you look at the other parties supposedly open to it, they’re including caveats. Plus the Change group have said no to the idea as have a number of individual independents.
Corbyn doesn’t have the numbers. He’s certainly going to lose some of his own more hardcore leave supporting MPs, so he’ll need all the progressive parties plus independents PLUS probably 6-7 moderate Tories to back his leadership. A guy who is monumentally unpopular in the country, widely disliked by the other party leaders, and whose name is used to frighten children in the Tory party.
To be fair if he pulls this off, then he deserves all the plaudits in the world, because it’ll make him a political genius.
Think its harsh lumping all Lib Dems in with this policy. It's a Swinson policy largely born out of her trying to sound tough in her leadership race, now she's stuck with it or will at least needs to put up a good show before overturning it.
If there's one party who can't afford to do further u-turns on election promises it's them.
Isn't Corbyn saying that it is a temporary unity government with all the parties or people who doesn't want a no deal Brexit involved in the government? Anyway if Corbyn tries anything they do not like they can always bring down the government. It is also term limited and to extend the article 50 and then have a GE. What is wrong with that for the remainers? They get a chance at a second referendum, they get a GE to get rid of Corbyn and they get all they have been shouting about.
No they would rather have Brexit with no deal than Corbyn as PM even for a day. They are hypocrites.
No they would rather have Brexit with no deal than Corbyn as PM even for a day. They are hypocrites.
A lot. First off Corbyn isn’t really offering a referendum. He is offering a GE which could go either way. The referendum comes a long way later if he wins the GE and if he gets the renegotiation he wants. There’s little to no chance of that happening based on how labour are polling. However a Tory win would see a no deal Brexit without any recourse.
Therefore his proposal is not removing the risk of no deal, merely reducing it and postponing it. Far from ideal for Remainers as you can imagine. It’s not a Remain alliance like people keep saying, since the biggest party in that alliance is Labour and they are officially a Brexit party.
I don’t mind Swinson displaying some brinksmanship to get a better result for Remain and for herself. And a better result would be either a pro Remain caretaker PM (i.e. not Corbyn) or a concession for a referendum before the GE, with no-deal off the ballot. She’s trying to turn Labour to a more Remain stance, using Corbyn’s unpopularity as leverage.
But like others have pointed out, if the play happens, the govt loses the no-confidence vote but Corbyn remains unyielding... then Swinson will have to back down and back Corbyn or be seen as complicit in allowing BoJo to run down the clock. Which I doubt would serve her or the Lib Dems well in the upcoming GE. Not that it would be good for Labour either mind you.
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It's not about labour policy or Corbyn, can you not see that?
What do you see as the reason behind it?
An opportunity for mp's to put their nutsacks on the table and oppose no deal. And as for a ge, its a chance for remainers to vote in the lib dems and stop brexit, which we know they wont do but hey ho.
Well, I do not think they can afford not to u-turn, or at least Swinson can't. Their recent bounce in the polls will evaporate in no time if they are seen to be standing in the way of stopping no deal.
Dunno... If it's to let Corbyn in power whilst labours policy is still... Fight election and if they win pursue red brexit with unicorns then I think that hits the vote t least as hard
Remain or rejoin I think will be the libs mantra
And let's be honest Corbyn probably won't even carry all his own parties votes to be pm let alone all the libs SNP independents etc
Suspect Boris will steel the thunder and simply call a ge vote to shake up the remoaner parliament before a confidence motion is possible anyway as none of the brexiteers want a second referendum before. Ge (just like Corbyn)
Exactly. He wants to re-negotiate.
What happens when he can't?
Underlying all that is Corbyn wants the reunification of Ireland. It's the main sticking point in Brexit.
No matter what deal he gets he will then have a referendum and I can't see any circumstances they would campaign against a deal they had negotiated... They are a fundamentally vote against the conservative party but they have leave leadership trying to con a remain membership
Ooooh Jeremy Corbyn indeed.
If Boris success in achieving a hard brexit I do wonder what labours next move will be
Libs will clearly be rejoin ... Might even rebrand as European democrats
Greens will be rejoin... SNP will be Scotland leaves UK and rejoins EU
Ireland will remain polarised around independence
Conservative will clearly not want to rejoin... What about labour?... More unicorns or split I think?...
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It's the perception, I think, more than the reality that matters more. I don't like Corbyn and I quite agree with Swinson that he probably won't gather enough support anyhow. But we cannot get over the fact he is still leader of the official opposition and should be next in line to form a government should the current one lose a vonc. And, currently, an alliance of opposition parties and Tory rebels looks like the most viable path to stopping a no deal Brexit. For a minority remainer party, it is inconsistent to both refuse to sit down with Corbyn and vehemently oppose no deal.
Besides, it is a vicious circle: if Lib Dems are seen to be working closely with Corbyn, his chances of gaining other MPs' support increase. So Swinson saying that he won't get the required numbers without even trying to talk to him smells very much like party politics as usual.