Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Buster15]

What is this obsession with Germany? I mean it's not as if the UK and France combined spend more than the bigger Russia when it comes to military expenditure or have their own nuclear weapons. And being able to defend yourself isn't solely based on nuclear weapons.

I am certainly not obsessed with Germany although I have worked there and have a number of German friends.
Regarding your post. You do realise I hope that both UK and France DO have their own independent nuclear weapons, separate from those of NATO.

Yes of course you can defend yourself without such weapons and I am all in favour of more spending on conventional weapons but unfortunately while there is a nuclear threat we have to be able to counter that threat.

 

[Smores]

Funny as i heard Trump pull out the same we're full line this morning. The USA can't take anymore people apparently.

I wouldn't discount that area of discussion completely as it does relate to us and the entire planet but are we really close to being full in the UK? We're going to carry on living longer and you've got the baby boom generation ageing so it's fairly evident we need migration to rebalance.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

Funny as i heard Trump pull out the same we're full line this morning. The USA can't take anymore people apparently.

I wouldn't discount that area of discussion completely as it does relate to us and the entire planet but are we really close to being full in the UK? We're going to carry on living longer and you've got the baby boom generation ageing so it's fairly evident we need migration to rebalance.

Older people could work longer than they are doing. Especially in sedentary occupations. Younger people could work in manual trades.

Meanwhile, what happens to the donor countries if we steal lots of their young people for the sake of our own selfish needs? No effects?

Some serious questions (and answers) needed looking at the medium & long term future of our country I think.

Are we full? Well, my town is. Hence another 8k houses + warehouses on green belt.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Older people could work longer than they are doing. Especially in sedentary occupations. Younger people could work in manual trades.

Meanwhile, what happens to the donor countries if we steal lots of their young people for the sake of our own selfish needs? No effects?

Some serious questions (and answers) needed looking at the medium & long term future of our country I think.

Are we full? Well, my town is. Hence another 8k houses + warehouses on green belt.

So you want the retirement age increased and for people to work longer instead of enabling policies that allow them to retire at the same age their parents did? That's nice, I guess.

Those "donor countries" are largely developing countries that are suffering from overpopulation of youth and a lack of an elderly population to support them due to much poor conditions and lower average life expectancy, basically the opposite of developed countries like the UK. It's almost like the current situation is a good thing for both of those sets of countries, or something.

Anyway you can talk all about controlled immigration all you want but from the stats so far it looks like the UK will let every bit as many people into the country as they were prior to the referendum, they just won't be from the EU, so .. yay?

 

[diarm]

Quite. But it you read my comments you will see that I speak about a European Army.

Possibly. But you have brought up Germany twice. What does Germany wanting an aircraft carrier have to do with a theoretical European Army? You are consistently failing to understand that the individual countries within the EU are just that; individual countries with their own concerns, aims and agendas.

I also seem to remember that when I first raised this issue I was assured that there was no such policy, simply discussion between a few EU countries.
Now I am being told it is a fantastic idea.

You seen to be under the impression his proves some sort of point for you?

A few people on an internet forum thinking a theoretical idea could be a good one, doesn't mean it's suddenly a fact and several European governments are scheming behind our backs.

Likewise, the fact that there is no policy, and only vague discussions about such an army doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

So you want the retirement age increased and for people to work longer instead of enabling policies that allow them to retire at the same age their parents did? That's nice, I guess.

Those "donor countries" are largely developing countries that are suffering from overpopulation of youth and a lack of an elderly population to support them due to much poor conditions and lower average life expectancy, basically the opposite of developed countries like the UK. It's almost like the current situation is a good thing for both of those sets of countries, or something.

Anyway you can talk all about controlled immigration all you want but from the stats so far it looks like the UK will let every bit as many people into the country as they were prior to the referendum, they just won't be from the EU, so .. yay?

I guess we should try and engineer a solution through rates of immigration, rates of births and deaths in the UK that doesn’t involve anymore population growth. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[afrocentricity]

I guess we should try and engineer a solution through rates of immigration, rates of births and deaths in the UK that doesn’t involve anymore population growth. That’s all I’m saying.

Because you are against immigration?

 

[That'sHernandez]

I guess we should try and engineer a solution through rates of immigration, rates of births and deaths in the UK that doesn’t involve anymore population growth. That’s all I’m saying.

Sounds distinctly fascist.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

This is what I’m saying about this forum. It’s like a remainer arguing their case on the Mail’s comments section. Yeah I’m a fascist.

 

[That'sHernandez]

This is what I’m saying about this forum. It’s like a remainer arguing their case on the Mail’s comments section. Yeah I’m a fascist.

What part of the idea of maintaining a certain population size through mandatory euthanasia, controlled birth rates and limited immigration in order to encourage economic stability doesn't sound fascist to you?

Edit: N.B. I didn't call you a fascist, I said your suggestion sounds fascist.

 

[JPRouve]

I am certainly not obsessed with Germany although I have worked there and have a number of German friends.
Regarding your post. You do realise I hope that both UK and France DO have their own independent nuclear weapons, separate from those of NATO.

Yes of course you can defend yourself without such weapons and I am all in favour of more spending on conventional weapons but unfortunately while there is a nuclear threat we have to be able to counter that threat.

And that's where the CSDP comes into play. Currently the EU(members states combined) spend a lot more than other countries outside of the US but there is a lot of redundancy and lack of efficiency because every country does its thing on his own. NATO and your pov are the main reason behind it, it encourages a divide to conquer logic and allows a much less spendy Russia to actually match the output.

 

[NinjaFletch]

What part of the idea of maintaining a certain population size through mandatory euthanasia, controlled birth rates and limited immigration in order to encourage economic stability doesn't sound fascist to you?

Edit: N.B. I didn't call you a fascist, I said your suggestion sounds fascist.

You might not have, but you should have. Sounds very fash, even if it hurts his feelings for it to be pointed out.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

What part of the idea of maintaining a certain population size through mandatory euthanasia, controlled birth rates and limited immigration in order to encourage economic stability doesn't sound fascist to you?

Edit: N.B. I didn't call you a fascist, I said your suggestion sounds fascist.

Fascist Smashist. Not interested in labels. I want solutions that have minimal effects on sustainability & the environment. Increasing the population isn’t one of them.

 

[diarm]

It's a question of interpretation. Smug? Am I excessively proud about my own achievements? No. In this context, am I proud that I didn't vote in the referendum? No. Am I proud that I don't understand politics, economics or law at even a basic level? No. Am I proud that the basis of my decision not to vote was my lack of knowledge on the critical issue being discussed? No. I'm a deeply flawed human being and I'm neither proud nor ashamed of that. I do find it useful to be vaguely aware of my own ignorance, which is what I think you've mistaken as pride.

So that's how something seemingly incoherent - being smug about being ignorant - can be true. It's because of your own interpretation, which from my very limited perspective, is not the right interpretation. The sad thing is, if I was on "your side", you'd interpret my motivations and actions entirely differently. Hence why you haven't had an issue with the passive aggression, smugness and general condescension from so many people in this thread. It's worth considering how the posts might influence people that don't fall into that camp, and how it might generate the tone you find so difficult to read.

See that's just it. It's not worth it.

A year ago I was all about trying to see things from " the other sides" point of view and involving the less informed but it doesn't work. World events over the last few years has shown us that pussyfooting around idiots hasn't helped inform and educate - it has only served to drag the rest of us down to their level of discourse.

Idiots don't want to learn, they just want to argue and feel relevant. Engaging with their nonsense only distracts us from the actually bad feckers like Mogg who are profiting from pulling their strings.

We need to go back to calling idiots idiots and dismissing them back to the periphery when they belong.

Also, I believe that at least 50% of the posters in here who use Leaver arguments but say they voted Remain or didn't vote are lying and as such, I trust none of you.

 

[Ubik]

Nobody give this guy an infinity gauntlet.

 

[Abizzz]

This is what I’m saying about this forum. It’s like a remainer arguing their case on the Mail’s comments section. Yeah I’m a fascist.

I guess we should try and engineer a solution through rates of immigration, rates of births and deaths in the UK that doesn’t involve anymore population growth. That’s all I’m saying.

Yeah it's clearly the redcafe's fault that fascists get called out as fascists.

At this point I'm convinced most brexiteers simply don't understand the words they use. It's the only explanation.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah it's clearly the redcafe's fault that fascists get called out as fascists.

At this point I'm convinced most brexiteers simply don't understand the words they use. It's the only explanation.

To be fair death engineering is a great euphemism and a clever way to use words.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

So anybody got alternative solutions then to me the fascist?

Or we going to keep building housing & new workplaces on green belt in the medium term to accommodate the expanding population needed to pull ourselves out of the shit?

 

[Fortitude]

Well this thread has certainly taken a few turns over the last few pages.

 

[Rajma]

So what about this brexit thing, any good?

 

[horsechoker]

So anybody got alternative solutions then to me the fascist?

Or we going to keep building housing & new workplaces on green belt in the medium term to accommodate the expanding population needed to pull ourselves out of the shit?

Give low skilled jobs and care jobs to machines so fewer humans are required

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So anybody got alternative solutions then to me the fascist?

Or we going to keep building housing & new workplaces on green belt in the medium term to accommodate the expanding population needed to pull ourselves out of the shit?

The last time some bloke invaded Russia for "living room".

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So what about this brexit thing, any good?

Come back this time next week.

 

[Dante]

Nobody give this guy an infinity gauntlet.

 

[Carolina Red]

Older people could work longer than they are doing. Especially in sedentary occupations.

Your youth unemployment rate is in the double digits and that’s what you think is a good idea?

 

[Abizzz]

So anybody got alternative solutions then to me the fascist?

Or we going to keep building housing & new workplaces on green belt in the medium term to accommodate the expanding population needed to pull ourselves out of the shit?

I don't think it's a problem to start with. Higher density leads to higher average wealth, better services, more opportunities. The solution is better infrastructure to cope with the strains. People think the services are strained because of immigration when it's obvious the current strain was designed (by the same designers who manufactured brexit, btw).

 

[That'sHernandez]

So anybody got alternative solutions then to me the fascist?

Or we going to keep building housing & new workplaces on green belt in the medium term to accommodate the expanding population needed to pull ourselves out of the shit?

Increased investment in the NHS, universities, infrastructure (railways, roads etc) and renewable power supplies in order to generate both high and low skilled jobs.

 

[Tarrou]

I voted leave.

Very simple reason why.

Projected UK population growth & long term sustainability of resources.

The remain argument seems to involve the here & now and the constant need for economic growth. I’m saying no. So, anything that doesn’t encourage population growth I’m in favour of.

So, controlled immigration (EU and non-EU) it is then.

My hometown is planning another 20,000 homes over the next 20 years. 7-8,000 of which will be on the green belt. Also lots more of that green belt planned for huge warehouses & extra employment required as a result.

No thanks. I’d honestly rather take the hit on the GDP.

In addition to that main reason, some other observations:

I don’t like the fact the UK hasn’t held any referendums on EU treaties or anything passed since 1975. Other countries did.

Also, have to question the EU’s motives for expansion into the poorer countries in Eastern Europe, thus promoting movement en masse. Would point out Germany blocked access to their employment market for 7 years initially. We didn’t. And we the people didn’t get a say in that one either.

Was the expansion into Eastern Europe more about kerbing Russian influence?

Buttering up the old Eastern Bloc countries to keep them onside?

Do you think leaving will reduce immigration then?

The government has had every chance to curb non-EU immigration, but hasn't. What will change if we leave the EU?

 

[Strachans Cigar]

Increased infrastructure? On brownfield? It’s limited. My town is building 13k houses on brownfield, rest on green belt.

What about things like Water supply? Occasional hose pipe bans now, is that going to get any better with more & more people?

 

[Tarrou]

So anybody got alternative solutions then to me the fascist?

Or we going to keep building housing & new workplaces on green belt in the medium term to accommodate the expanding population needed to pull ourselves out of the shit?

I reckon we'll reach the peak global population within the next 100 years anyway. The solutions are already in place, family planning, better education etc... and the death rate will eventually surpass the birth rate.

Your proposed solution, as far as I can discern, is we leave the EU and suddenly immigration will drop? Or if that isn't it what are you proposing?

 

[That'sHernandez]

Increased infrastructure? On brownfield? It’s limited. My town is building 13k houses on brownfield, rest on green belt.

What about things like Water supply? Occasional hose pipe bans now, is that going to get any better with more & more people?

Water companies should be held to task better for their maintenance of water pipes.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

I reckon we'll reach the peak global population within the next 100 years anyway. The solutions are already in place, family planning, better education etc... and the death rate will eventually surpass the birth rate.

Your proposed solution, as far as I can discern, is we leave the EU and suddenly immigration will drop? Or if that isn't it what are you proposing?

Needs to drop to levels that maintain not increase the population. That’s what I’m proposing. More control over quotas we let in.

 

[Tarrou]

Needs to drop to levels that maintain not increase the population. That’s what I’m proposing. More control over quotas we let in.

okay fair enough, but what is it about our government that makes you think they'll do that if we leave the EU? They've had plenty of chances to curb immigration over the past decade, but haven't. What's gonna change?

 

[Massive Spanner]

I guess we should try and engineer a solution through rates of immigration, rates of births and deaths in the UK that doesn’t involve anymore population growth. That’s all I’m saying.

But see what you're saying doesn't really make sense. Essentially your main reason for leaving the EU, as stated above, is to reduce immigration and control it (which you already do) to stop the population growing, but trends are already showing that leaving the EU isn't going to stop it, or even in any way reduce it. So what's the point of leaving the EU if it's not going to give you what you want and just cause, as you said yourself, the economy to get hammered?

 

[Strachans Cigar]

But see what you're saying doesn't really make sense. Essentially your main reason for leaving the EU, as stated above, is to reduce immigration and control it (which you already do) to stop the population growing, but trends are already showing that leaving the EU isn't going to stop it, or even in any way reduce it. So what's the point of leaving the EU if it's not going to give you what you want and just cause, as you said yourself, the economy to get hammered?

We don’t have full control of (EU) immigration because of freedom of movement. A caveat (of sorts) was pointed out earlier, but even that hasn’t been exercised, so I have no faith in the UK government suddenly changing policy if remaining.

Got to go now, sorry. Not bailing out of the debate, honest!

 

[Brwned]

See that's just it. It's not worth it.

A year ago I was all about trying to see things from " the other sides" point of view and involving the less informed but it doesn't work. World events over the last few years has shown us that pussyfooting around idiots hasn't helped inform and educate - it has only served to drag the rest of us down to their level of discourse.

Idiots don't want to learn, they just want to argue and feel relevant. Engaging with their nonsense only distracts us from the actually bad feckers like Mogg who are profiting from pulling their strings.

We need to go back to calling idiots idiots and dismissing them back to the periphery when they belong.

Also, I believe that at least 50% of the posters in here who use Leaver arguments but say they voted Remain or didn't vote are lying and as such, I trust none of you.

The thing is, from my perspective I know that your last paragraph is factually incorrect, which is such a clear illustration of why your entire attitude to resolving this political situation leads to incorrect conclusions and thus is unlikely to lead to incorrect solutions.

When you're educating these lying idiots on their ignorance, there's no reason they'll believe you have a clearer understanding of things, when you're displaying your own ignorance by telling them that they voted (or didn't) for reasons other than they say.

You can't know why I didn't vote, or whether I voted for Leave. You can only trust your own judgment. On the other hand I do know that I didn't vote, and why. So I can see conclusively that your grasp of the nuance of these issues is not correct. Your approach to this discussion puts you at a disadvantage by default, as it's based on assumptions you can't verify without the other person's help, which you refuse on principle.

I don't think my grasp of the nuance of these issues is correct either, for what it's worth. This isn't me saying I'm right and you're wrong. It's just me saying that you're wrong, because it's a factual question I have direct knowledge of.

It's up to you what to do with that. I don't think you're an idiot for not believing me, and I don't think your viewpoint is illegitimate for making that error. If I was to call you an idiot for that misjudgement, it might be worth considering how that would influence you.

But it is the truth: on this one thing, you are entirely wrong. If you are similarly wrong about the other things that underpin your overall mindset, then I guarantee you it does not benefit you or your cause to shout about it to people you perceive to be idiots, liars, racists and all the rest. It's your choice on whether to listen to the truth, or to believe your own superior judgment of the world. I'd be very surprised if refusing to listen to people with a different opinion to yours, deligitimising their view and demonising them would be a successful strategy to achieve your stated goal.

Also, I think it's worth reviewing what led to you the conclusion I made a Leaver argument. It's certainly not how I would interpret things. The very fact I'm not pro Remain in a conclusive way makes you think I'm pro Leave. As soon as you detect I'm not on your side, I must be on the other side. I'm sorry but the world is not that simple.

 

[Walrus]

I am a staunch remainer and I agree with a lot of what @Strachans Cigar has said over the last couple of pages

 

[RedChip]

I am a staunch remainder and I agree with a lot of what @Strachans Cigar has said over the last couple of pages

You could be more specific. Which bits do you agree with?

 

[Walrus]

You could be more specific. Which bits do you agree with?

I think that overpopulation is a serious problem in the UK, and to an extent the rest of Europe. I think euthanasia or other forms of population control would be a sensible idea at this stage (within reason), similarly I don’t have any issue with bringing back the death penalty.

None of the above is mutually exclusive with being pro-EU as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Euthanasia for who exactly?