Well many of them are wrong and are simply too stubborn and bitter to admit or realise it.
Everyone is talking about it now and everyone talked about it when the referendum happened. You can get a good picture very easily.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Well many of them are wrong and are simply too stubborn and bitter to admit or realise it.
Everyone is talking about it now and everyone talked about it when the referendum happened. You can get a good picture very easily.
It's not a bad analogy when leavers use the UK as an example of proper democracy. By making that analogy, I'm just pointing to the fact that the system isn't that different, it's an indirect democracy where leaders with a popular mandate take decisions for us, now if I was totally honest I would say that the commissioner proposed by the french president has more legitimacy than the commissioner proposed by the UK PM since the french president is directly elected by the french electorate, in that sense we do have a problem.
But seriously I don't think that your system is bad or non democratic, it's just not that direct and you don't have as much say as some pretend even when we are talking about your head of government.
Do leavers use the UK as an example of a ‘proper’ democracy though? My point was that most people in the UK are not happy with leaders taking office without a GE.
The problem with EU is that it is a leviathan, it is remote and it is opaque to the average voter. The vast majority of people struggle with dryness and complexity of domestic politics so I can’t see how a more integrated EU could possibly result in more effective democracy. Having millions of pages of legislation and debate on a website doesn’t help either!
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I will be honest, I don't really understand you.
I think we are probably talking about different points because I’m lost too.
Uri Diculous.
Uri-ne everywhere or just a water pipe?
He looks great for 72. Maybe the ol spoon bending malarkey has some merit.
Does he predict these interventions before the events occur?
he made a facebook face a couple of weeks ago about how if Theresa May kept it up he'd have to do something about it
does he have to pay for the repairs then?
But wouldn’t holding up parliamentary business make no deal more likely?
It’s quite clearly a fecking set up on Corbyn and he’s too daft to realise it.
May is going to concede whatever she needs to concede to get her deal over the line, at the next general election, the Tories are going to blame the shit show Brexit turns out to be on Corbyn’s input.
May is going to concede whatever she needs to concede to get her deal over the line, at the next general election, the Tories are going to blame the shit show Brexit turns out to be on Corbyn’s input.
Meh, too vague.
The colour is key
You're right that it's not the only one and remainers might overestimate the extent to which concerns about immigration affected the result but consider the following: Immigration was the second or first most cited reason leavers themselves gave for wanting to leave despite the stigma that might be attached to such an admission. A June 2016 MORI poll suggested that immigration was far and away the top concern of UK voters in general and stated that this concern had increased 10 points since May. Immigration was of particular concern to Conservatives, UKIPers, the 65+ and those with a social grade of C2DE - all demographics which disproportionately voted leave. The second most cited primary concern of all these groups? - The EU. Of those that cited the EU as their primary concern Immigration was their most mentioned "other important" concern. Of those that cited Immigration as their primary concern the EU was their most mentioned "other important" concern. This is, again, true of the aforementioned leave leaning demographics.
That immigration formed the bulk of the Vote Leave campaign's messaging is heavily suggested in this Independent article. The same article also demonstrates the throughline connection between fear of immigration (the lead), the nhs, loss of sovereignty and the resulting appeal of Dominic Cummings' £350 million:
Vote leave advert said:
Immigration was quite clearly Vote Leave's totem of the sovereignty they were claiming we would regain.
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Eeeew...
Yes immigration was a central issue of the campaign, a central reason for leaving for many people, and was tied in coherently with the NHS and sovereignty more broadly. That wasn't what was being debated. Let's look at the data:
- The most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 45%––was, ‘to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries’. The second most frequently selected reason among Leave voters––ticked by 26%––was, ‘to help us deal better with the issue of immigration’
- ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters; and ‘A feeling that voting to leave the EU offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders’, which was ranked first by 33% of Leave voters.
- The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were ‘Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave)
In any case, your data illustrates my point quite well. Immigration was not the reason people voted Leave. It was an important reason for a lot of people, but not the primary reason for most, never mind the singular reason for all.
How is that bitter? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.So bitter
Bitterness is professing a lack of transparency about the EU - when it isn't the case - because you have a pre-existing dislike for it as an institution. Talking about that irrationality is a point of fact.
Just to add my two cents here mate, I’m from Trinidad and still live here, and there is absolutely no one in this country who sympathizes with the British or consider themselves even vaguely British as a result of being a commonwealth nation. I truly have no idea where you’ve plucked that from, but it’s complete nonsense. There is no romancism or entitlement here.
It’s quite the opposite in fact, a lot of people dislike a lot of what England stands for as a result of their past with us, which lends to a lot of people really hating National sports teams from England, for example, and enjoying when they’re beaten.
I won't lie I had a double take on that post too. I'm English with Jamaican heritage though so I wasn't going to assume I know what it's like for him/her. My experience is more like yours....
Yeah I mean far be it from me to say anything about his personal experience, but I know a lot of people, and not many people feel anything positive towards England, and absolutely no one towards their old empire or the commonwealth. It was such a strange post I just had to say something about it, as I really don’t want people who may not know better thinking the islands are full of people pining for the good old days where we were part of the empire
I’m one of the rare exceptions as I’m quite fond of England
But I'm not particularly disagreeing with you there or seeking to impugn the motives of all, or even the majority of leave voters. I'm adding the nuance, lacking from your original post, that immigration was indeed the central thread that tied together the leave message and that the extent of its overall importance in swaying voters is arguable. Bolded is the rub - hence why I described how the two were linked by the leave campaign and provided supporting data from the Mori poll. That poll at the very least points to immigration as being the principal concern of leave leaning demographics and shows a heavy correlation between immigration and the EU as issues. Another interesting tidbit from that poll was that concern for immigration jumped 10 points from its previous incarnation while the EU and NHS scored a more modest 4% jump. This suggests Leave's anti immigration message was very effective in swaying people and that its concern for the nhs, while important, remained secondary.
Are there generational differences and are they quite pronounced?
I can only speak on a few (relatively speaking) anecdotal interactions, and even then, all its shown me is that different people see things differently.
So I won't make any generalisations. I don't recall anyone having any affinity (in the way that earlier poster mentioned) to the commonwealth, Queen, Britain, empire, etc however...
Already posted ?
Reasons 1 and 2 above could be interpreted as concerns about immigration (essentially the right for the UK to set its own immigration quotas). It also sounds a bit better than confessing directly that you want to kick out foreigners. I very much doubt the average Brexit voter was thinking in Liam Fox terms of the right of the UK to strike its own trade deals, and 95% of them wouldn’t know what ECJ stands for.
The sensitivity around staying in the single market also emphasises just how central our politicians perceive the immigration issue to be for Leavers. It is unbelievably stupid to give up access to the giant market on our doorstep unless you believe the freedom of movement pillar to be politically toxic.
I can only speak for Jamaica. Generally we don't give a feck about the British. Maybe the really older folk that were born before independence, but even then We all identify proudly as Jamaicans and as a poster said previously enjoy beating the colonist at any chance we can. I particularly enjoy beating them in cricket
Really? I'm from Barbados and Nigeria. My family grew up there I'm first generation born here. I've spent extensive time in both places including spending alot of time with immigrants from both places here. Both have an infinity for British which is extremely high. For example any British person going to these places is essentially thought to be a higher level or someone to be celebrated. Now it has changed a bit for my generation but for the Windrush generation it's very much the case.
I think you're missing the nuance, unfortunately.
They could be, but it would be unreasonable to assume they are for most people. We know for a fact there are people that don't give a shit about the economy, immigration or any of the major political issues, but they just don't like the idea of the EU - this unseen, unknown "leviathan" - having control of their country. They don't really care what they have control over, or what decisions they make, it's just a point of principle. Some people will have voted on that reason alone. And that's most easily summarised as wanting to take back control.
No-one doubts that immigration has been a big political issue for a long time and was one of the driving forces of the Leave vote. The point is, it wasn't the driving force, never mind the sole explanation. That's what Ekkie's data illustrates. Anyone who believes that is the single reason that this vote happened is just over simplifying it to help rationalise it, and in doing so is not just misunderstanding a significant portion of the population but demonising them for reasons that have no merit. Which we know for a fact does strengthen divisions and make political problems more difficult.
That's all I was saying. I wasn't saying the majority of Leave voters took an active interest in trade negotiations or the ECJ.
One-year flexible extension (where Britain can leave any time Parliament ratifies a deal) is reportedly being mooted by the EU.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47821646
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47821646
It's a good idea, in my view. It takes the pressure off - things have become ridiculous over the last month or so.
Leave voters in saying it wasn't immigtation shocker. Never seen that before
As ever it's the EU that have to act the grown ups in the room. It's a perfect solution all round so you know May will reject it
The big-bad EU being nice to the UK in negotiations? But.. but.. it's all their fault the UK is having such a hard time leaving!
But yeah, it's a good idea, though I honestly feel a year probably still isn't enough and we'll be back in this exact position again this time next year.