JRM is just another charlatan.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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Even leave.eu getting in on the action. Ardent Brexiters still won't wake up though
Absolutely.
Again, I think a Brexiter, a proper Brexiter, should be put in charge after May has gone, because only when one of that lot is forced to face up to reality will people accept that reality. While they are allowed to carp on from the sidelines, criticising what other people do without having to come up with real workable solutions themselves, the narrative that Brexit was "stolen" from the people by "the establishment" gains more and more credence with people. It is storing up a lot of problems for the future.
It is a big risk, I acknowledge that. It could further poison relations between the UK and the EU. But once a Brexiter has completely failed and those ideas been thoroughly discredited, the UK can show some contrition and go back to the EU with a bit more humility.
Its from the No Omelette Without Broken Eggs school of international diplomacy.
May tried this by giving Brexiters top cabinet posts, didnt work.
If you make JRM PM then we crash out with no deal, chaos ensues and he goes and lives in a tax haven somewhere. He wouldnt carry the can, the British people would.
Love this from John Baron, Tory Brexiteer. Essentially; things aren't working out how I like, so lets change everything else and run the scenario again until I bloody-well get what I want! The people spoke once, it's on record and no matter what changes we have to honour the thing that happened once and gets me what I want. Now fetch my grapes servant … and they had better be peeled!
"A snap general election is becoming more likely. Whatever the outcome of the votes on Wednesday, the numbers inside the current remain-dominated House of Commons will not change. It may be that an election is necessary to redress the balance in favour of MPs willing to implement the referendum result, for history suggests it is unwise for any parliament to distance itself from the people. The events of the next few weeks will be critical."
"A snap general election is becoming more likely. Whatever the outcome of the votes on Wednesday, the numbers inside the current remain-dominated House of Commons will not change. It may be that an election is necessary to redress the balance in favour of MPs willing to implement the referendum result, for history suggests it is unwise for any parliament to distance itself from the people. The events of the next few weeks will be critical."
Sky said:
Sun said:
Lets ignore 5.5M signatures on a petition and over 1M people marching in London.
Instead, let's pander to 200 people and Nigel Farage.
True
Lets ignore 5.5M signatures on a petition and over 1M people marching in London.
Instead, let's pander to 200 people and Nigel Farage.
To be fair, that's a long way short of 17.4 million.
When you consider every single voter had a polling card put through their letter box but the with the petition:
1. You have to know about it.
2. You have to make an effort to look for it.
3. You have to make an effort to sign it.
Opinion polls ask a couple of thousand people, or less, what they think. Almost 1/10th of the population of the country has signed this, think about it. It's unprecedented.
But indicative that "the people" Baron claims Parliament is distancing itself from cannot refer to the population as a whole.
More than three times as many people got off their arses and went down to a polling station to vote.
Well of course not - we know that (at least) 16.1 million people are in favour of remain.
However, the fact that 5m of that 16.1m have also chosen to do a few clicks online to sign a petition, is not going to impress many leavers.
Legitimizing people like Mogg is a recipe for trouble. Yes he will mess it up and become more unpopular but we really need a steady hand at the tiller at this point in time. May etc. have already messed up the reputation of the party anyway.
You're right. The largest signed petition in UK history which acheived that total in 5 days isn't worthy of a consideration.
More than six times as aside, as the half of the population who didn't vote leave also got off their arses and down to a polling station.
There have been some strident claims that petitions and marches are 'democracy' which presumably means referendums and general elections are not. They're a good idea but if they come across as just bullying they're not going to change any minds.
Not sure what you are getting at here.
Are you suggesting that a petition signed by 5m people somehow invalidates (or even calls in to question) the votes of 17.4m people?
Again, we know that, at minimum, 16.1m want to remain. The fact that 5m of the 16.1m are also willing to sign a pro-remain petition, is hardly surprising.
That is clearly not what he is saying
To be fair May didn't try that, she gave them cabinet posts but then sidelined them and controlled everything herself. Brexiters have never been in control of this process at any point, which has only helped encourage the narrative that Brexit is being "stolen", as I said before.
I certainly see what you are saying, and agree to a point. I am very conflicted. The way I see it we are in trouble one way or the other, the decision to make here is which trouble is going to be worse. You have economic trouble from hard brexit, you have political trouble from avoiding it. I dont honestly know which of the two is worse. I think most people in here think the economic pain is worse and should be avoided at all costs and I understand that. It could be right, for sure. But Im not 100% convinced. I think economic pain could end up being cathartic and allow the country to come together and move on once it has been endured. My worry is the political pain in the stolen brexit scenario will linger and fester and cause more problems over the long term.
The penny finally drops for Mogg. Hopefully it's still too late.
Also
Rees Mogg is a pussy.
Would you say that a march of 40 to 200 people validates the votes of 17.4M people?
Perhaps there should be a 'leave means leave' petition started and lets see how many votes that get, to get a comparison. Considering a large % of leave voters can only just about draw a 'X' on a voting slip, that would probably be a bit unfair though.
all that was missing was Bercow cupping his ear (like Mourinho against Juventus)
Or a second referendum, which would have actual political and legal legitimacy.
Unless you've got 18m+ people on board, these marches/petitions all mean diddly-squat.
You are aware the petition is rising rapidly by the day? It's rate of growth is incredible and will beget more signing as attention is placed upon it from those who haven't sought it out of their own volition to date.
Agreed, which is why parliament should listen to marchers and petitions.
If over 1M people march and 5.7M people sign a petition, it gives legitimacy to a 2nd referendum.
I see that May is going to address the 1922 Commitee and it's speculated she may give a timetable for her resignation in return for backing her Brexit deal. But how does her resignation make her deal more palatable for Tories who don't like it?
This is something I simply do not understand.
What happens if you vote "remain" in the second referendum and then a few millions people march and sign a petition to have a third referendum?
I've always thought that there should be some kind of responsibility. You can't agree all the time, because different groups of people can march at different times and you start to look like a ball in tennis table.
What is the likelihood of that though? Farage tried to organise a Brexit march and barely anyone showed up. Will there even be any appetite for a 3rd ref if there is a 2nd where remain wins? I imagine only the most dedicated Brexiters will want one. Everyone else will be glad things are back to normal for the time being.
Great. I hope it reaches 20m+.
The main opponents to her deal care more about the chance to become PM than any type of brexit. That is the simple answer.
The rest are just sheep. Once the heavy hitters fall in line, the rest would fallow.
I suggested this might happen last week.
It seems to be the price some MPs are demanding to vote for the deal.
They'll need a lot more than 5-6m to persuade the 2nd referendum advocates in the commons to break cover in significant numbers.
I'm sure 'Russian interference' will be declared if we see 17m+ votes.
Better sell his Euro's now.
They want us out, don't they!
Agree to disagree on the first paragraph.
As for political vs economic pain, you are right that we are fecked either way. Although i am an ardent remainer, i am starting to think some sort of Brexit in name only (Norway+ or whatever) is the least worst outcome.
I dont believe hard Brexit will allow us to "come together" though. It will just validate the Xenophobes and lead to more blaming of the EU.
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Because by instilling someone they trust (and May lost that some time ago) they can shape the future relationship to be more palatable in the next stage. This is only the start remember....
It doesn't, but they are Tory's and they are wired to their primary survival instinct, which is to seek to gain power and to hold on to it.
If remaining in power means ditching their PM; selling the DUP down the river; and effectively remaining in the EU, even as a 'vassal state' , then they will eventually fall in line and vote for their survival and woe betide any MP who is perceived to let them down.
You cannot run the country from the opposition benches, you can make impassioned speeches and promise the earth, but unless you are in power, you cannot use it to your advantage, every young tory knows this mantra off by heart!