Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[4bars]

I'm not a brexiteer. I wanted to stay in. But I'm getting a little cheesed off with the almost total attitude in this thread that the EU has nothing to answer for.

I am in the opposite. I wanted the UK to stay, but as the day passes, I can't wait for you to crash out, if it only would not be for the people that will suffer

Edit: not in the opposite of remain, but the reasons of the change

 

[Buster15]

But they are the only member who have voted to leave and cannot decide on what that means.

True.
But it is not as if there is a tried and tested process of leaving.
The reality is that both sides are learning by doing.

The primary problem is that of the border in Ireland which is proving far more complex than at first glance.

 

[Buster15]

Because they always have wanted special treatment, not only that, they still want special treatment after they have left.

You say special treatment.
Others would argue fair treatment.

It is perfectly natural that the leaders of any country in a Union should try to get the best possible conditions for its own people.

I trust that you are not trying to say that it is only the UK that wants this and the other 27 are perfectly compliant and don't attempt to improve its conditions.

 

[4bars]

You say special treatment.
Others would argue fair treatment.

It is perfectly natural that the leaders of any country in a Union should try to get the best possible conditions for its own people.

I trust that you are not trying to say that it is only the UK that wants this and the other 27 are perfectly compliant and don't attempt to improve its conditions.

AS well the EU want the best (or the least worse) of the outcome of Brexit and this doesn't stop brexiteers to say that the EU is bullying UK.

 

[JPRouve]

You say special treatment.
Others would argue fair treatment.

It is perfectly natural that the leaders of any country in a Union should try to get the best possible conditions for its own people.

I trust that you are not trying to say that it is only the UK that wants this and the other 27 are perfectly compliant and don't attempt to improve its conditions.

This makes no sense, first the UK haven't been unfairly treated and secondly if you want to change things that affects everyone you need to convince a majority or all members. That's the entire issue here, some seem to think that they can just demand and the other members have to oblige whether it suits them or not.

 

[Abizzz]

I'm not a brexiteer. I wanted to stay in. But I'm getting a little cheesed off with the almost total attitude in this thread that the EU has nothing to answer for.

Maybe make a thread about the deficiencies of the EU then? This thread is on Brexit, and up to this point in the process the EU have performed a lot better than anyone expected beforehand. There wasn't even a showdown on the European side concerning the WA, they just agreed, despite needing to satisfy 27 cabinets and parliaments.

The UK can thank their lucky stars that the EU isn't behaving vindictive or nearly as chaotic as many Brits allege (or as the Brits behave).

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I struggle to believe that the EU as a Union are not disappointed that the UK is about to leave and don't regret not doing more to make it more attractive. Not just for us but for all.
Now. I fully expect to get a response saying that nobody else cares whether we remain or leave and the EU has been more than generous in agreeing a to a fantastic WA.

With the red lines May has set the WA is the only one possible - it has been negotiated around what the UK said they wanted.

The EU have said themselves that they'd prefer the UK to stay but the UK decided to leave - the only country that hasn't accepted that the UK are leaving the EU are the UK themselves.

The primary problem is that of the border in Ireland which is proving far more complex than at first glance.

That was obvious from before the referendum but not enough people made an issue of it.
Nevertheless the problem has been clearly evident for more than two years but that doesn't seem to have swayed any opinion or desire by Brexiters to dismiss it.

You say special treatment.
Others would argue fair treatment.

It is perfectly natural that the leaders of any country in a Union should try to get the best possible conditions for its own people.

I trust that you are not trying to say that it is only the UK that wants this and the other 27 are perfectly compliant and don't attempt to improve its conditions.

Yes of course all countries want the best and negotiate within the EU, it's up to the members to decide between them.

My point is that both Tories and Labour are still seeking the benefits of the EU whilst being outside it.

 

[caid]

Deciding on what it means is immaterial. The UK will leave one way or another. Who, in the EU is seriously asking why?

Do you guys even know why your leaving?
You've got towns with no immigrants voting to stop immigrants coming to their town. You've got a government who actively avoid taking responsibility for anything bleating on about control and sovereignty over things that have control and sovereignty over.
I think your leaving because you have no understanding or interest in what the EU is and have a hostile political and media establishment which tricked you into screwing yourselves over. Thats it in a nutshell. Your insularity made you vulnerable imo, its a weakness that comes with your independence and self sufficiency which are normally good qualities but probably not that suited to how the world is changing.

 

[Stick]

True.
But it is not as if there is a tried and tested process of leaving.
The reality is that both sides are learning by doing.

The primary problem is that of the border in Ireland which is proving far more complex than at first glance.

Yes I agree the UK are the path finders but you have had 2 years and still a consensus on the Brexit issue has not been agreed by your parliament. Whose at fault there?

I'm a bit slow on things but wasnt the EC/EEC/EU set up as a way to stop wars in Europe over balance of power struggles. It gave representation to all members at a table where previously there was none. In Europe we have had peace since 1945 in part due to stability. I think the UK leaving definitely destabilises the EU and creates tension in competition with the UK for different markets.

If the UK really wanted to reform the EU they could do so within by suggesting reforms, pitching them to member states and making changes democratically. I don't doubt the EU have made mistakes but the anti EU and Johnny foreigner attitude in the British press along with successive average governments blaming Europe for everything have also massively influenced the British electorate.

I'm risk averse so I struggle to understand the logic of this but I hope it works out for you for all our sakes.

 

[mariachi-19]

I'm not a brexiteer. I wanted to stay in. But I'm getting a little cheesed off with the almost total attitude in this thread that the EU has nothing to answer for.

Look im not going to get into any debate on this because im not truly informed, but your country chose to leave the EU. The EU is not obligated in anyway shape or form to assist the UK in leaving with little to no economic impact. In fact, its within their best interest to ensure that you pay the maximum you possibly can.

You can't expect somebody to help you when you leaving causes nothing but headaches.

 

[Penna]

Look im not going to get into any debate on this because im not truly informed, but your country chose to leave the EU. The EU is not obligated in anyway shape or form to assist the UK in leaving with little to no economic impact. In fact, its within their best interest to ensure that you pay the maximum you possibly can.

You can't expect somebody to help you when you leaving causes nothing but headaches.

This is it in a nutshell. We're the ones who want to leave, it's costing other countries a lot of time and money to put new measures in place to deal with the changes, it destabilises a long-established alliance - why should they help us out at all?

 

[Stanley Road]

Look im not going to get into any debate on this because im not truly informed, but your country chose to leave the EU. The EU is not obligated in anyway shape or form to assist the UK in leaving with little to no economic impact. In fact, its within their best interest to ensure that you pay the maximum you possibly can.

You can't expect somebody to help you when you leaving causes nothing but headaches.

The eu has a right to look after its citizens, if europes economies are worse off because of brexit then they will have failed.

 

[Massive Spanner]

The eu has a right to look after its citizens, if europes economies are worse off because of brexit then they will have failed.

That's bullshit because there's no scenario where there aren't at least some of the countries worse off when they lose the sixth biggest economy in the world, and you know it. The EU nor the countries in it have ever tried to claim that they won't take a hit when the UK leaves, but they'll be a hell of a lot better equipped to recover from it long-term than the UK will.

 

[Stanley Road]

That's bullshit because there's no scenario where there aren't at least some of the countries worse off when they lose the sixth biggest economy in the world, and you know it. The EU nor the countries in it have ever tried to claim that they won't take a hit when the UK leaves, but they'll be a hell of a lot better equipped to recover from it long-term than the UK will.

Its not bullshit at all

 

[Reiver]

Why do you assume the UK's government will be to the right of the EU's? Isn't it equally possible that over the next thirty years it could be to the left, and enhancing all those things?

For the record I think it's better to have shared laws over those items, I'm just questioning your assumption.

What you say is possible. I wasn't trying to make a comment on the nature of the UK Government going forward, although I suspect it will be right leaning at least.
My point is that, given time, business will successfully lobby for changes on a shed load of laws/policy, such as workers rights.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Its not bullshit at all

A fine counter argument worthy of the man.

 

[Honest John]

That's bullshit because there's no scenario where there aren't at least some of the countries worse off when they lose the sixth biggest economy in the world, and you know it. The EU nor the countries in it have ever tried to claim that they won't take a hit when the UK leaves, but they'll be a hell of a lot better equipped to recover from it long-term than the UK will.

That depends on just how fragile the EU is. Populism is clearly on the up and that will ask serious questions of the EU. This is why I say that despite how mad everyone thinks the UK is, the EU should take a long hard look at itself.

 

[Massive Spanner]

That depends on just how fragile the EU is. Populism is clearly on the up and that will ask serious questions of the EU. This is why I say that despite how mad everyone thinks the UK is, the EU should take a long hard look at itself.

A hell of a lot less fragile than the UK.

Nobody is denying that the EU faces a lot of challenges.

 

[Stanley Road]

A hell of a lot less fragile than the UK.

If you look at( some )countries individually, you will find very fragile economies. When they go to shit, how will they be helped by being in the eu? I am genuinely curious.

 

[africanspur]

If you look at( some )countries individually, you will find very fragile economies. When they go to shit, how will they be helped by being in the eu? I am genuinely curious.

What does this mean though? How have Liverpool and Manchester and Bolton and Newcastle been helped by being in the UK when their economies went to shit? How about South Wales? How has Alabama benefitted from being in the USA? How far can you take this argument?

Do you know that in areas of London or Glasgow you can cycle for half an hour and be around people who's life expectancies is 20 years less than the place in the same city where you started? Or that life expectancy dropped for the first time since records began in the UK a couple of years ago?

What would you want the EU (if you still wanted it to exist) to do?

 

[Stanley Road]

What would you want the EU (if you still wanted it to exist) to do?

I don't know, I just keep hearing how prepared other countries are for Brexit and I am not seeing it. With regard to individual countries, that response was to the guy above who said the remaining 27 countries will bounce back a lot quicker cos they're in the eu. I guess he's right, just look at Italy.

 

[africanspur]

I don't know, I just keep hearing how prepared other countries are for Brexit and I am not seeing it. With regard to individual countries, that response was to the guy above who said the remaining 27 countries will bounce back a lot quicker cos they're in the eu. I guess he's right, just look at Italy.

A hard Brexit will undoubtedly affect the whole of the EU. We're the world's 5th largest economy and 2nd largest in the EU. It would also be affected if Germany or France crashed out (or even Italy/ Spain etc imo).

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...hZjzeN__Pc-51grsMAQ5_LsfAUayBpEATmU9RZL9nTrxM

This article is pretty good for the different exposures different countries have.

I don't think everyone is saying that the EU won't be affected by the UK's departure. Just that it will likely be less affected as they will still have >20 countries where trade goes on as normal whereas we may suddenly find barriers going up to our trade with our biggest trading partner.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know, I just keep hearing how prepared other countries are for Brexit and I am not seeing it. With regard to individual countries, that response was to the guy above who said the remaining 27 countries will bounce back a lot quicker cos they're in the eu. I guess he's right, just look at Italy.

I won't comment on the post that you are targeting but you are mixing structural problems that each individual countries have and conjectural issues. Italy has a structural problem, that can only be fixed by reforms emanating from the Italian government while Brexit will be a conjectural problem essentially limited to practical issues regarding supply chains which will be fixed by the concerned private industries themselves because it is their own organization, government might help them but the difficulties of brexit aren't with states, for the most part.
If you compare the UK and EU member states the main difference after brexit is that supply chains within the EU already exist and are available or will be made available relatively quickly between private economic actors, while the UK will need agreements with foreign government which is always a difficult step.

 

[Stick]

I don't know, I just keep hearing how prepared other countries are for Brexit and I am not seeing it. With regard to individual countries, that response was to the guy above who said the remaining 27 countries will bounce back a lot quicker cos they're in the eu. I guess he's right, just look at Italy.

I think what he means is there is safety in numbers and that. United we stand etc. Regarding countries saying they are prepare. Of course they will say that because it gives their people confidence but to be honest there is such an element of unknown here that nobody can be truly prepared.

 

[Massive Spanner]

If you look at( some )countries individually, you will find very fragile economies. When they go to shit, how will they be helped by being in the eu? I am genuinely curious.

I'm not sure how that isn't blatantly obvious, really. Being in the EU gives them the world's largest trading bloc and 2nd largest economy (closely behind the US) to work with, should things 'go to shit'. Plus, an economy of over 500m people is far less likely to go to shit than the UK will.

Ireland will probably be worst hit in the short term by Brexit so we'll have to see how the EU support us when that happens, I'm hoping they will but this is something that's never happened before so it's difficult to predict.

 

[Buster15]

This makes no sense, first the UK haven't been unfairly treated and secondly if you want to change things that affects everyone you need to convince a majority or all members. That's the entire issue here, some seem to think that they can just demand and the other members have to oblige whether it suits them or not.

Unfortunately it is your response that makes no sense.
Where did I say that the UK has been treated unfairly ?

 

[Buster15]

With the red lines May has set the WA is the only one possible - it has been negotiated around what the UK said they wanted.

The EU have said themselves that they'd prefer the UK to stay but the UK decided to leave - the only country that hasn't accepted that the UK are leaving the EU are the UK themselves.



That was obvious from before the referendum but not enough people made an issue of it.
Nevertheless the problem has been clearly evident for more than two years but that doesn't seem to have swayed any opinion or desire by Brexiters to dismiss it.



Yes of course all countries want the best and negotiate within the EU, it's up to the members to decide between them.

My point is that both Tories and Labour are still seeking the benefits of the EU whilst being outside it.

Are the benefits not mutual then.
Post leaving, we all acknowledge that the best possible trade arrangements between the EU and UK will be the best outcome for both sides.

Why do some believe it is all one way.

 

[JPRouve]

Unfortunately it is your response that makes no sense.
Where did I say that the UK has been treated unfairly ?

By suggesting that the UK special demands where linked to being treated fairly. It insinuates that they haven't been treated fairly until these demands are fulfilled.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Are the benefits not mutual then.
Post leaving, we all acknowledge that the best possible trade arrangements between the EU and UK will be the best outcome for both sides.

Why do some believe it is all one way.

The best possible trading arrangements are for the UK to be part of the EU or at least the EEA and the EUCU. Both of which the UK have said they don't want - that is the UK's decision.

If they are not part of this then there will be no frictionless trade, again the UK's choice. The Uk become a third country the same as all the other countries that are not in the EEA/EUCU.

The UK really need frictionless trade, they don't want it - well they do but are not prepared to play by the rules.

 

[Buster15]

Yes I agree the UK are the path finders but you have had 2 years and still a consensus on the Brexit issue has not been agreed by your parliament. Whose at fault there?

I'm a bit slow on things but wasnt the EC/EEC/EU set up as a way to stop wars in Europe over balance of power struggles. It gave representation to all members at a table where previously there was none. In Europe we have had peace since 1945 in part due to stability. I think the UK leaving definitely destabilises the EU and creates tension in competition with the UK for different markets.

If the UK really wanted to reform the EU they could do so within by suggesting reforms, pitching them to member states and making changes democratically. I don't doubt the EU have made mistakes but the anti EU and Johnny foreigner attitude in the British press along with successive average governments blaming Europe for everything have also massively influenced the British electorate.

I'm risk averse so I struggle to understand the logic of this but I hope it works out for you for all our sakes.

No. You are far from being slow and you make some very good points.

THE CM/EU whilst primarily being a trading community was also as you say aimed at ensuring peace in Europe.

In terms of reforms, our previous idiot of a leader Cameron did (so he said) try to bring about changes before the referendum and in fact had this happened it is likely that the referendum would not have happened.

You are right. Much of the British press are anti EU. However, it would be a gross overstatement to suggest that British are anti foreigners.

Remember. Just because just over half of those who voted did so to leave the EU, the vast majority still feel we are part of Europe. Me included.

 

[Buster15]

By suggesting that the UK special demands where linked to being treated fairly. It insinuates that they haven't been treated fairly until these demands are fulfilled.

Quick question.
Do you and Paul operate as a team.
You both respond within seconds of eachother and your responses are almost telepathic.
This is a joke by the way and I have a great deal of respect for both your knowledgeable comments and most importantly often learn from them so thank you.

 

[JPRouve]

Quick question.
Do you and Paul operate as a team.
You both respond within seconds of eachother and your responses are almost telepathic.
This is a joke by the way and I have a great deal of respect for both your knowledgeable comments and most importantly often learn from them so thank you.

It's simply due to the fact that international laws is a boring subject with very little nuance, I used to hate it at the Uni. And Paul worked in a field that uses international laws daily.

 

[Maticmaker]

True.
But it is not as if there is a tried and tested process of leaving.
The reality is that both sides are learning by doing.

The primary problem is that of the border in Ireland which is proving far more complex than at first glance.

Spot on mate!
No one in the political elite, either in the UK or in the EU, ever envisage that anyone would ever want to leave the EU and just to be sure devised Art 50, (written by a Brit) this ensures the recalcitrant member either leaves on the EU's terms (i.e. sucks it up) or leaves without a deal (called crashing out).

We are now in a game of 'chicken' that May has to see it through, whatever the outcome, because she has nowhere else to go. The rest of the politicians at Westminster are wetting themselves about an 'accidental' no deal outcome and how they will explain this to their constituents. The EU is holding firm, behind Ireland (at least for the time being) but there are long glances across the table between those EU countries who will suffer very little by the UK departure and those that will get 'hammered' by a no deal.

No ones been here before, its Learning on the Job for all concerned. The experts and academics etc. will be writing books on this for the next quarter of a century, so at least someone will make some money!

Who will blink first?

 

[Raulduke]

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Here we go with another day of pointless amendments. UK negotiating with themselves with 43 days to go. Kick the can down the road a bit further, nearly at the end of the road.

 

[sun_tzu]

Here we go with another day of pointless amendments. UK negotiating with themselves with 43 days to go. Kick the can down the road a bit further, nearly at the end of the road.

I do wonder how much longer they are going to be able to get away with that... might the EU put a deadline of say 28th Feb... new proposal in writing or communication is cut off and no extension submitted after that date will be considered as all efforts turn to hard brexit preparation... might actually take something like that to change the policy from wait till the last day and have a deal or no deal to see if enough MP's blink

 

[sun_tzu]

Ahead of the debate on the UK's withdrawal from the EU and the subsequent votes, the Speaker John Bercow announces that he has selected the following amendments:

• Amendment a - the Labour frontbench amendment which requires the government to either give MPs a vote on the withdrawal agreement and political declaration on future UK-EU relations by 27 February, or make a statement saying there is no longer an agreement in principle with Brussels and so allow MPs to vote on - and amend - its planned next steps.
• Amendment i - the SNP amendment which seeks to postpone the Brexit date by at least three months.
• Amendment e - Conservative MP and Remain supporter Anna Soubry's amendment which instructs the government to publish within seven days "the most recent official briefing document relating to business and trade on the implications of a no-deal Brexit presented to cabinet".

I dont think any of those will pass to be honest

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I do wonder how much longer they are going to be able to get away with that... might the EU put a deadline of say 28th Feb... new proposal in writing or communication is cut off and no extension submitted after that date will be considered as all efforts turn to hard brexit preparation... might actually take something like that to change the policy from wait till the last day and have a deal or no deal to see if enough MP's blink

The EU will wait to the last minute but that means for the UK to change direction (radically).

On the three amendments:
There's no point extending the date by 3 months if the UK will still be debating with itself in 3 months time.
The withdrawal agreement has been voted on and there are not going to be any changes, so are MPs going to change their mind.
Implications of no deal Brexit 43 days beforehand. What are they expecting it so say, it's going to be wonderful?

Unbelievable.

 

[Buster15]

Spot on mate!
No one in the political elite, either in the UK or in the EU, ever envisage that anyone would ever want to leave the EU and just to be sure devised Art 50, (written by a Brit) this ensures the recalcitrant member either leaves on the EU's terms (i.e. sucks it up) or leaves without a deal (called crashing out).

We are now in a game of 'chicken' that May has to see it through, whatever the outcome, because she has nowhere else to go. The rest of the politicians at Westminster are wetting themselves about an 'accidental' no deal outcome and how they will explain this to their constituents. The EU is holding firm, behind Ireland (at least for the time being) but there are long glances across the table between those EU countries who will suffer very little by the UK departure and those that will get 'hammered' by a no deal.

No ones been here before, its Learning on the Job for all concerned. The experts and academics etc. will be writing books on this for the next quarter of a century, so at least someone will make some money!

Who will blink first?

Blinking hell.
I hope it is not us.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Spot on mate!
No one in the political elite, either in the UK or in the EU, ever envisage that anyone would ever want to leave the EU and just to be sure devised Art 50, (written by a Brit) this ensures the recalcitrant member either leaves on the EU's terms (i.e. sucks it up) or leaves without a deal (called crashing out).

We are now in a game of 'chicken' that May has to see it through, whatever the outcome, because she has nowhere else to go. The rest of the politicians at Westminster are wetting themselves about an 'accidental' no deal outcome and how they will explain this to their constituents. The EU is holding firm, behind Ireland (at least for the time being) but there are long glances across the table between those EU countries who will suffer very little by the UK departure and those that will get 'hammered' by a no deal.

No ones been here before, its Learning on the Job for all concerned. The experts and academics etc. will be writing books on this for the next quarter of a century, so at least someone will make some money!

Who will blink first?

Which countries in the EU will be hammered , bearing in mind Ireland will clearly be the biggest sufferers by far of no deal apart from the UK and what do you mean by the blink from the EU, what are you expecting them to do?