Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Stanley Road]

Maybe not racist, but after all your rant previous the boldened sentence at least tiny tiny bit xenophobic towards the dutch

Well they have a natural dislike for turks and Moroccans, if me pointing that out makes me xenophobic then yes i am.

 

[711]

I can quite safely say i dont ever want to fit into dutch life. I dont want to eat shit food, i dont want to eat at 6pm on the dot, i dont want to complain all day about everything, i dont want to eat chocolate sprinkles on bread for breakfast, i dont want to eat a sandwich with a knife and fork, i dont want to moan about being too busy while doing not much, i dont want to eat lunch at 12 on the dot and i dont want to be ultra racist.

Eating at 6pm is perfect if you want to have a decent evening for hobbies and enjoying life, all for it. I could learn to live with chocolate sprinkles if necessary, as a gesture to integration.

 

[diarm]

Well they have a natural dislike for turks and Moroccans, if me pointing that out makes me xenophobic then yes i am.

Along with calling them lazy, anally retentive, shit at food and moany it probably does yeah.

 

[4bars]

Along with calling them lazy, anally retentive, shit at food and moany it probably does yeah.

Details details, tsk

 

[Steven Seagull]

You should go out more.

I don't know if you're talking about ALL "foreigners" or just the EU but if referring to the latter I would say a lot of the people who have come over here from the EU speak and write better English than a lot of the people who voted leave.

If you're talking about the older refugees and asylym seekers who wouldn't normally go to school then its extremely difficuilt for them to integrate considering services in this country have been cut to the bone. There are no more programs in community centres to teach them English, there are no more skills programs etc Some of them could even be illiterate so it would be doubly hard. It doesn't help that their neighbours see them as dirty foreigners either so its not exactly easy but you're welcome to clarify exactly who you're talking about.

So you disagree with Pauls belief that people should make more effort to speak the language of the country they reside in? I can’t pigeon hole everybody who doesn’t make an effort but there are many people who don’t.

For clarity I don’t believe these people should just “go back home” but you don’t have to piss your pants and eat kebab to integrate better

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Its a right of passage up there, if you've been to Newcastle and haven't volleyed chicken wings at passing cars then you just didn't do it right.

Getting a late night bus through the Bigg Market is a good way to see what life would be like after a catastrophic breakdown of society.

 

[Penna]

When someone switches language to talk secretly, its so obvious you're talking about people around you.

Like in North Wales?

 

[Stanley Road]

Like in North Wales?

Yep. Been there loads

 

[Kentonio]

Getting a late night bus through the Bigg Market is a good way to see what life would be like after a catastrophic breakdown of society.

To be fair, if the nukes ever land, I’m betting on the Geordies to be the survivors who spark our new civilization.

 

[Smores]

So you disagree with Pauls belief that people should make more effort to speak the language of the country they reside in? I can’t pigeon hole everybody who doesn’t make an effort but there are many people who don’t.

For clarity I don’t believe these people should just “go back home” but you don’t have to piss your pants and eat kebab to integrate better

Are there really many who don't? I grew up in bradford where the communities are quite segregated but i can't say there were many times i came across what you're talking about. Parents/grandparents letting their child speak for them happened sometimes but from the families i knew that was as much about educating the child as anything.

I've said it on here before but having moved around the country a fair bit it's down south where i live now in a place that lacks diversity that views such as "they don't even try" seem stronger. Some of the people i hear complain I'd wager have never actually spoke to an immigrant family to even form a view.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

So you disagree with Pauls belief that people should make more effort to speak the language of the country they reside in? I can’t pigeon hole everybody who doesn’t make an effort but there are many people who don’t.

For clarity I don’t believe these people should just “go back home” but you don’t have to piss your pants and eat kebab to integrate better

I don't disagree at all that people should integrate fruther and try and learn the language. But it's a bit ironic for the English to say that, when the majority of them going abroad class learning the language as speaking English in a louder voice with a bit of an accent.

You've not given me any examples of people not integrating. For those who you think are not is it by choice?

And I want to add one more thing that for a lot of the refugees and those seeking ayslym there is nothing more they would want than being able to go home. Especially thosw who find it hard to integrate.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

One of the many ironies of the baby boomer costa del sol living, leave voting feckwits is that they perceive themselves as a boon to the Spanish economy despite the vast majority of them paying zero income tax in Spain, while costing the Spanish health service a disproportionate amount of money in their old age. While simultaneously inisting that much younger immigrants to the UK are a drain on the British economy. Go figure.

And people still get annoyed when it’s suggested that a lot of people who voted Leave were idiots...

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Can someone help me out understanding this. Labour/Corbyn requesting a customs union, May's response seems to make sense:

Mrs May does not agree with his first demand on the customs union, and wrote: "I am not clear why you believe it would be preferable to seek a say in future EU trade deals rather than the ability to strike our own deals?"

The existing Political Declaration, setting out the goals for the future relationship between the UK and the EU, "explicitly provides for the benefits of a customs union - no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors and no checks on rules of origin", Mrs May told Mr Corbyn.


So why are labour requesting this? What advantages does it provide?

 

[JPRouve]

Can someone help me out understanding this. Labour/Corbyn requesting a customs union, May's response seems to make sense:

Mrs May does not agree with his first demand on the customs union, and wrote: "I am not clear why you believe it would be preferable to seek a say in future EU trade deals rather than the ability to strike our own deals?"

The existing Political Declaration, setting out the goals for the future relationship between the UK and the EU, "explicitly provides for the benefits of a customs union - no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors and no checks on rules of origin", Mrs May told Mr Corbyn.


So why are labour requesting this? What advantages does it provide?

What she is mentioning concerns FTAs not custom unions.

 

[Buster15]

Can someone help me out understanding this. Labour/Corbyn requesting a customs union, May's response seems to make sense:

Mrs May does not agree with his first demand on the customs union, and wrote: "I am not clear why you believe it would be preferable to seek a say in future EU trade deals rather than the ability to strike our own deals?"

The existing Political Declaration, setting out the goals for the future relationship between the UK and the EU, "explicitly provides for the benefits of a customs union - no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors and no checks on rules of origin", Mrs May told Mr Corbyn.


So why are labour requesting this? What advantages does it provide?

My take is that at this stage of the Brexit process it's primary benefit would be to obviate leaving with a no deal.

Like all these things there are pluses and minuses to everything.
Labour has wanted us to have A Customs Union, as opposed to being in THE EU Customs Union for some time. In terms of the benefits, the BBC website lays these out.

The Brexiteers in the Tory party and some of the Labour party as well hate this idea primarily because it would prevent the UK from negotiating separate trading arrangements with other countries. Something the leavers see as the big prize of leaving.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Can someone help me out understanding this. Labour/Corbyn requesting a customs union, May's response seems to make sense:

Mrs May does not agree with his first demand on the customs union, and wrote: "I am not clear why you believe it would be preferable to seek a say in future EU trade deals rather than the ability to strike our own deals?"

The existing Political Declaration, setting out the goals for the future relationship between the UK and the EU, "explicitly provides for the benefits of a customs union - no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors and no checks on rules of origin", Mrs May told Mr Corbyn.


So why are labour requesting this? What advantages does it provide?

The answer to May's question is obvious: the EU has much more barganing power for trade deals than the UK on its own. Size matters.

That said, the UK might feel it can better "tailor" FTAs on its own. However the UK is still likely to get bent over a barrell by the US and China.

 

[JPRouve]

My take is that at this stage of the Brexit process it's primary benefit would be to obviate leaving with a no deal.

Like all these things there are pluses and minuses to everything.
Labour has wanted us to have A Customs Union, as opposed to being in THE EU Customs Union for some time. In terms of the benefits, the BBC website lays these out.

The Brexiteers in the Tory party and some of the Labour party as well hate this idea primarily because it would prevent the UK from negotiating separate trading arrangements with other countries. Something the leavers see as the big prize of leaving.

Distinction without a difference.

 

[sun_tzu]

One of the many ironies of the baby boomer costa del sol living, leave voting feckwits is that they perceive themselves as a boon to the Spanish economy despite the vast majority of them paying zero income tax in Spain, while costing the Spanish health service a disproportionate amount of money in their old age. While simultaneously inisting that much younger immigrants to the UK are a drain on the British economy. Go figure.

And people still get annoyed when it’s suggested that a lot of people who voted Leave were idiots...

Pretty sure the NHS is backcharged for their treatment under EU rules... It's this that will stop with a hard brexit hence the advise is for them to take out private insurance... So the Spanish health service does not really have any cost (other than administrative to backcharge and even the admin expenses I believe are also backcharged)

So whilst most won't pay any income tax on their pensions (this will be done in the UK) they will be paying vat etc on purchases over there and of course any stamp duty etc if they buy a house as well as any regional taxes that are due (council tax equivalent etc)

On that basis they probably are tax positive for Spain... Though equally perhaps not as much as some of them think

 

[Buster15]

Distinction without a difference.

Isn't the difference that a number of non EU countries have A CU with the EU which gives them access to the EU but does not give them any voting rights or any say in EU business.

I agree it is subtle.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Pretty sure the NHS is backcharged for their treatment under EU rules... It's this that will stop with a hard brexit hence the advise is for them to take out private insurance... So the Spanish health service does not really have any cost (other than administrative to backcharge and even the admin expenses I believe are also backcharged)

So whilst most won't pay any income tax on their pensions (this will be done in the UK) they will be paying vat etc on purchases over there and of course any stamp duty etc if they buy a house as well as any regional taxes that are due (council tax equivalent etc)

On that basis they probably are tax positive for Spain... Though equally perhaps not as much as some of them think

Ah. Fair point.

Although this whole backcharge thing makes it even more ludicrous for Brexiteers to assume keeping EU migrants out will save the UK money.

 

[JPRouve]

Isn't the difference that a number of non EU countries have A CU with the EU which gives them access to the EU but does not give them any voting rights or any say in EU business.

I agree it is subtle.

No a custom union is about common custom procedures, it's about reducing the need for internal custom border checks. What you and May are talking about is an FTA, which concerns the actual barriers to entry.

 

[Penna]

One of the many ironies of the baby boomer costa del sol living, leave voting feckwits is that they perceive themselves as a boon to the Spanish economy despite the vast majority of them paying zero income tax in Spain, while costing the Spanish health service a disproportionate amount of money in their old age. While simultaneously inisting that much younger immigrants to the UK are a drain on the British economy. Go figure.

And people still get annoyed when it’s suggested that a lot of people who voted Leave were idiots...

Living in a sunny European country has been a good option for older Brits who have already reached UK state pension age (which as you know, is now getting pushed further and further back), because the S1 form gives you health care which is free at the point of delivery (with the NHS ultimately paying for it, as sun_tzu says).

We aren't old enough to qualify for the S1 and so we took a private policy here in Italy last year, just so that we could apply for residency - it excludes some of our existing health conditions and cost us nearly 2000 euro, with a 3000 euro excess on any claim! Needless to say, we won't be using it - it was purely an expensive paper exercise for us. Private healthcare is simply not affordable if you're older and have things wrong with you, hence there will be many returning to the UK from Spain and other warmer climes if/when the S1 arrangement is revoked.

We have also now paid into the Italian health service which was even more expensive (income-based contributions), but gives us the same level of comprehensive cover as an Italian citizen. However, you have to be a resident to do that, and many Brits who own properties abroad aren't.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

My take is that at this stage of the Brexit process it's primary benefit would be to obviate leaving with a no deal.

Like all these things there are pluses and minuses to everything.
Labour has wanted us to have A Customs Union, as opposed to being in THE EU Customs Union for some time. In terms of the benefits, the BBC website lays these out.

The Brexiteers in the Tory party and some of the Labour party as well hate this idea primarily because it would prevent the UK from negotiating separate trading arrangements with other countries. Something the leavers see as the big prize of leaving.

The answer to May's question is obvious: the EU has much more barganing power for trade deals than the UK on its own. Size matters.

That said, the UK might feel it can better "tailor" FTAs on its own. However the UK is still likely to get bent over a barrell by the US and China.

Ok thanks. So in summary, are these targets about right?

Labour: tariff free trade within EU and in customs union with a say in deals.

Conservative: tariff free trade within EU but able to negotiate our own deals with non EU countries. (Potentially worse deals than than the EU gets)

 

[GloryHunter07]

Ah. Fair point.

Although this whole backcharge thing makes it even more ludicrous for Brexiteers to assume keeping EU migrants out will save the UK money.

I read somewhere that in practise the "backcharge" doesnt really happen in practice as it is too dificult to administer. Not sure how true that is.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Ok thanks. So in summary, are these targets about right?

Labour: tariff free trade within EU and in customs union with a say in deals.

Conservative: tariff free trade within EU but able to negotiate our own deals with non EU countries. (Potentially worse deals than than the EU gets)

Labour's position is unworkable - not within the EU but wanting the benefits of being in the EU. Tory plus plus of 2016.

Conservative - free trade with (not within) the EU but having no solution to the Irish border.

46 days from Brexit and both parties on another planet to the rest of the world.

 

[Buster15]

No a custom union is about common custom procedures, it's about reducing the need for internal custom border checks. What you and May are talking about is an FTA, which concerns the actual barriers to entry.

Thank you for your clarification.
I note that my error was when I said that A CU gave the non EU countries access to the EU.

What I meant to say was that it gave these countries common tarrifs with the EU countries ( tariff free trading). In terms of the Irish boarder, this type of arrangement would overcome the contentious Backstop issue as I understand it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Thank you for your clarification.
I note that my error was when I said that A CU gave the non EU countries access to the EU.

What I meant to say was that it gave these countries common tarrifs with the EU countries ( tariff free trading). In terms of the Irish boarder, this type of arrangement would overcome the contentious Backstop issue as I understand it.

Tariffs have nothing to do with the backstop.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Thank you for your clarification.
I note that my error was when I said that A CU gave the non EU countries access to the EU.

What I meant to say was that it gave these countries common tarrifs with the EU countries ( tariff free trading). In terms of the Irish boarder, this type of arrangement would overcome the contentious Backstop issue as I understand it.

you don't understand it.

 

[Buster15]

Tariffs have nothing to do with the backstop.

OK. So a CU or FTA with the EU would not overcome the Irish border issue?

You can see why people get confused because I have taken the time to check these things out and:
Corbyn is talking about A Permanent CU with the EU.
From what I have read, that would overcome the Irish border issue.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

OK. So a CU or FTA with the EU would not overcome the Irish border issue?

You can see why people get confused because I have taken the time to check these things out and:
Corbyn is talking about A Permanent CU with the EU.
From what I have read, that would overcome the Irish border issue.

A FTA does nothing to solve the border issue. For example FTA the EU has with Canada or Japan - there is still a border.

Being part of the EUCU and being in EFTA/EEA would solve the Irish border.
Two of the numerous problems with this, this isn't what Corbyn means, parliament wouldn't agree to it as it is Brexit in name only.

 

[Buster15]

A FTA does nothing to solve the border issue. For example FTA the EU has with Canada or Japan - there is still a border.

Being part of the EUCU and being in EFTA/EEA would solve the Irish border.
Two of the numerous problems with this, this isn't what Corbyn means, parliament wouldn't agree to it as it is Brexit in name only.

Understood (I think)....
I am going to stick with trying to understand how our Universe was formed. Far easier.

 

[Buster15]

Understood (I think)....
I am going to stick with trying to understand how our Universe was formed. Far easier.

And far more interesting by the way.

 

[Honest John]

I get confused when people cite the GFA with regard to the border.

The UK Government and the ROI signed up to an International Peace Treaty (as they did) making the contents therein enshrined in International Law.

If the UK (or the ROI) imposed a hard border would it not be a contravention of that?

Is that then not sufficient as a legal guarantee of no hard border?

If it is why do we need a backstop?

If it isn't then why keep citing the GFA?

 

[sullydnl]

I get confused when people cite the GFA with regard to the border.

The UK Government and the ROI signed up to an International Peace Treaty (as they did) making the contents therein enshrined in International Law.

If the UK (or the ROI) imposed a hard border would it not be a contravention of that?

Is that then not sufficient as a legal guarantee of no hard border?

If it is why do we need a backstop?

If it isn't then why keep citing the GFA?

There's nothing in the GFA that explicitly says there has to be an open border. However, several of points and principles within the GFA were made on the assumption of one (as nobody at the time anticipated Brexit and even if they had, accounting for it would have made agreement impossible) and as such would be undermined by a hard border.

Which is why even with all the difficulties the backstop is causing for the UK government currently, they haven't gone down the route of arguing that a hard border is actually compatible with the GFA. Even they understand that it's one or the other, which (along with the political difficulties of arguing against that point) is why they keep saying there will be no return to a hard border regardless.

 

[Sweet Square]

Living in a sunny European country has been a good option for older Brits who have already reached UK state pension age (which as you know, is now getting pushed further and further back).

Am I right in thinking this is due to older Brits constantly voting for the tories ? They really don't help themselves.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Understood (I think)....
I am going to stick with trying to understand how our Universe was formed. Far easier.

One thing that is guaranteed is that whoever thought Brexit was going to easy , not even the greatest expert on the planet realised how big this can of worms really is.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Am I right in thinking this is due to older Brits constantly voting for the tories ? They really don't help themselves.

Yep. And they'll get their just desserts when the NHS is destroyed and their grandchildren won't give them the time of day.

 

[Honest John]

There's nothing in the GFA that explicitly says there has to be an open border. However, several of points and principles within the GFA were made on the assumption of one (as nobody at the time anticipated Brexit and even if they had, accounting for it would have made agreement impossible) and as such would be undermined by a hard border.

Which is why even with all the difficulties the backstop is causing for the UK government currently, they haven't gone down the route of arguing that a hard border is actually compatible with the GFA. Even they understand that it's one or the other, which (along with the political difficulties of arguing against that point) is why they keep saying there will be no return to a hard border regardless.

UK - We won't put up a hard border
EU - We won't put up a hard border
ROI - We won't put up a hard border

There is the basis for a legally binding codicil that references the spirit of the GFA and does not have to be part of the WA.

Worse case if the FTA isn't finished? The EU will have an open border with a third country and the UK will have an open border with the EU.

That should be enough to focus minds to get an FTA sorted out.

 

[JPRouve]

Understood (I think)....
I am going to stick with trying to understand how our Universe was formed. Far easier.

It's easier if you ignore the union part. An FTA is a trade agreement that lowers barrier to entry between two countries/territories, the custom administration is the administration that makes sure that goods coming from an external territory abide to the rules and collects the financial barriers to entry.
From there it should be intuitive to understand that a custom union is the addition of more than one custom territories in which different custom administrations will follow common protocols and make internal checks redundant.

The reason why you need both to virtually have no need for internal checks is that any FTA can change the rules by altering quotas and the type of goods that are accepted from the outside, that's one of the reason why the EUCU negotiates trade as a block. If countries start negotiating individual FTAs they make the point of a CU disappear, every custom administration will have to make sure that goods abide to their own FTA package.

 

[Shinjch]

UK - We won't put up a hard border
EU - We won't put up a hard border
ROI - We won't put up a hard border

There is the basis for a legally binding codicil that references the spirit of the GFA and does not have to be part of the WA.

Worse case if the FTA isn't finished? The EU will have an open border with a third country and the UK will have an open border with the EU.

That should be enough to focus minds to get an FTA sorted out.

Surely most of the point of Brexit was because people wanted control over the borders though?