Regarding the dictatorship you mentioned. Why is the EU pushing ahead with a European Army when a number of countries are against the idea.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
Regarding the dictatorship you mentioned. Why is the EU pushing ahead with a European Army when a number of countries are against the idea.
When and where has "the EU" pushed for a European army?
The EU doesn't push for an army and last time I checked 25 members out of 28 joined PESCO, which is the program equated to an army(it's not). The countries that didn't join it are the UK, Malta who aren't against it but want to see how it's going to work before eventually joining and Denmark who always opt-out.
The reality is that almost everyone wants to have a military cooperation.
If you are talking about the backstop element for the Irish border, then there is no easy solution as you've alluded to. What is clear is that the NI being under a separate customs/ border regieme is unacceptable and neither should we have a hard border
My broad approach would be as follows.
- have a transition period of 2 years (give or take) where there is no customs border. This buys time for all involved to develop a solution. This includes the UK broadly following the principles of the customs union, but being able to negotiate deals for the future
- post this period, the best solution appears to be a variant of 'max fac', with simplification of tarrifs and customs processes, pre customs activity and use of technology
- the above is not the perfect solution however as there is still the age old problem of customs fraud which would return with a border (hard or frictionless) returning, particularly on a border with multiple crossing points. I can't see much more of a mitigation other that greater enforcement to act as a deterrent (which partly reduces the risk)
- A ' max fac' type solution would also be aided by the pursuit of free trade to remove the need for tarrifs on the majority of goods. That would be a tough pill for the EU to swallow given the construct of their whole 'project', but protectionism generally isn't a healthy ideology in my view
As i've said not ideal, but it's the basis of a solution and more of a solution of ignoring the issue of sovereignty of NI remaining under an EU trade regime, something that I've generally seen remainers ignore/ dismiss
Read the news and you will see that only a few weeks ago Macron and Merkel were pushing for such a European Army.
I am surprised that you were not aware of it.
Read the news and tell me that Macron is not pushing for a European Army.
Neither Macron or Merkel are the EU, are they?
Classy
Macron is the president of France.
I think this exchange does demonstrate something interesting which I have noticed in other conversations with Brexiters. They instinctively equate individual leaders of European nations with the collective will of the EU. But they would never have taken what, say, David Cameron said when PM as being the voice of the EU.
My point was that the EU willingly gave up including any of the four freedoms in any deal - that is, they worked alongside the UK government's red lines from the start. And that UK wide customs union was a British idea that the EU accepted, after initial reluctance.
Yeah, Turkey has a similar deal - which was of a great benefit to them! It was negotiated way back when it looked like there was a chance of Turkey eventually becoming an EU member with everything that entails (which now looks absolutely impossible of course). It was part of a plan to bring their economy up to speed. It wasn't some selfless act by the EU, obviously, but it wasn't an evil scheme to keep Turkey in thrall to the EU either. Offering a similar deal to Britain without the intention of any further integration is a remarkable concession, in my opinion.
The idea of a European standing army in the EU had been discussed, but was seen as being a way off being realised; that is until Trump started to insist the European states in particular should pay their fair share of Nato's defence in Europe and commit the 2% of their GDP to defence as they had promised. The leading EU integrationist states then seized on this to resurrect the idea that only Europe can defend itself and it should no longer rely on anyone else and should have its own standing army. More grist to the mill for leavers!
It does show how easily people seem to fall for the traps the likes of Farage set. Either that, or it's just a fundamental lack of understanding.
I had the same thought when I wrote that post. It's almost crazy, Cameron makes a proposition and it's against the EU. Macron says something, he is the EU.
Wibble, you being patronised by this chump is like a wise old cat being patronised by a garden gnome.
He might have a smug smile painted on his face but he hasn't a fecking notion what he's doing here and most normal people don't know what the feck his point his.
I am well aware of that.
Are you suggesting that he has not been discussing the concept of a European Army. Not even with Angela Merkel...
Let's face it: it's the idea that France and Germany rule the EU. They won't equate just any individual leader with the collective will of the EU: Andrej Babiš could say whatever he wanted, it wouldn't be taken as "something the entire EU wants".
It still speaks of a wilful ignorance about how the EU works but there's a certain logic to it.
he's suggesting that Merkel and Macron are the leaders of their countries, not the EU. Regardless of whether they talk about a European army, they EU themselves haven't.
I'm suggesting that he isn't the EU and that the EU didn't push for an Army which is what you said. Now maybe that he discussed about it with Merkel but that's what politicians do, they discuss.
The president of France discussing something does not in anyway equate to you saying -
I think his point is everyone was promised a free sovereign ring if they voted Brexit and he damn well wants his. Sovereigns for all!
That was about Trump's stupidity and ignorance regarding how NATO works (as well as him trying to bully others to buy weapons from American defence contractors).
I thought the EU was an evil group of faceless unelected bureaucrats making decisions that the 28 countries are obliged to follow. Well that was what Farage told me so it must be true and no-one in the British media contradicted him.
Suppose it's too late to start an educational course on how the EU operates.
Suppose it's too late to start an educational course on how the EU operates.
Education has already failed some of these people. You'd be as well off trying to teach pigeons how to play piano.
He probably will be when Merkel steps down in Germany.
The Common Market, the European Economic Community and now the European Union, have all always been led by a Franco-Germanic Axis. Cameron and/or Britain itself have only ever really been tolerated, especially since the EU emerged, for what resources/market it brings, not for political leadership.
Countries in the EU can push for any agenda they want. Whether it will go through or everyone would participate in it is an another matter entirely. I also doubt there is as much resistance against an EU army either. Many in Europe would want to have a plan B just in case the US decide to pull the NATO plug out. Not everyone likes to kiss the US's butt.
France and its president will never be the EU. And the second part is absolute nonsense, the UK have been one of the main driving force in the EU particularly when it comes to trade, customs and regulations, they have the same weight than France due to comparable populations and economies.
Also the UK are the kings of lobbying.
what's wrong with that? Don't you think that the richest continent in the world should be able to protect itself without a third country dictating things? Its not as if the US's track record in the past half century or so is enough to justify its role in Europe.
Would the US, Russia, China or anyone else allow a third country to co-ordinate its military?
I think you will find that it is far more than just France and Germany.
The article I read mentioned 9 EU nations were in favour. Not all 28 I accept but when the two most powerful nations are in favour it is not impossible that it could become a reality.
I am sure that it is not only German that fails to meet the NATO spending requirements and it is NATO that is responsible for peace; both in Europe and elsewhere.
Looks like it could be the plan...
https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/exclusive-secret-plan-to-slash-tariffs-on-all-post-brexit-imports_uk_5c587b08e4b00187b553da30
Corbyn fecking rules.
By being a complete prat?
I suspect Trump would be delighted if the EU paid the total cost for its own defence, but not sure many of the 27 states populations (UK excluded) would thinks so when they saw the bill.
There has always been a trade off with the USA, twice in the last century the US had to intervene to help save Europe (from its self). To try to ensure it doesn't have to do so again, especially with a President whose mantra is "America first", the US uses Europe as a bulwark against Russia and accepts there is a cost for doing this. However if the EU steps up and offers to pay for its own entire defence... well that would be right up Trump's ally!
This is confusing, you started by claiming that the EU was pushing for an army against EU nations will. Now you suggest that EU nations are favorable to it, you mentioned the figure of 9 and you don't really know what the others think of it. So let me ask you this, would it be a problem if the 25 countries that signed PESCO decided to create an army?
Interesting how the remainer/ anti Brexit posters quickly descend into insults on this thread. Speaks volumes
I'm glad someone is happy with him...
Corbyn fecking rules.
I think they are frustrated by you making them go over the same arguements, they should just cut and paste what they said to the last poster pushing your point of view. I'm not even trying to take the piss here (well not much), its a bit like groundhog day. What do you think of what they've been saying to you? (the content not the insults)
Last edited:
I'm barely surprised, you really need to get rid of these people.