Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Buster15 said:
And I am pretty sure that I asked you how the EU had been helpful in the leaving process.
You ought not ask a question until you have answered one.
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They have offered a deal better than any other country has that also helps the UK satisfy an already existing international treaty.
 
Buster15 said:
And I am pretty sure that I asked you how the EU had been helpful in the leaving process.
You ought not ask a question until you have answered one.
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Helpful in which way, the EU can't take decisions for the UK? The EU offered an alternative that works, is in line with all international rules and that also match with the fact that NI voted to remain in the EU, that answer was that NI stays in the EUCU.
 
Bola said:
Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude
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You mean the UK have to take the consequences of leaving which they are refusing to do.

How you manage to blame the EU for this is weird.

It's the same with May expecting the same benefits of the EU without any of the responsibilities.

There is no compromise on this issue because there is no means of compromise.

The Uk should stop acting like a spoilt child, grow up and accept its responsibilities
 
JPRouve said:
Your realize that you don't lose your sovereignty in a bilateral agreement? The UK never lost any sovereignty as members of the EU since they were part of the decision making process.
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I'll just jump on a boat to British waters where practically anyone can help themselves to the fish. I'm sure we can move them on if we don't like it
 
Buster15 said:
And I am pretty sure that I asked you how the EU had been helpful in the leaving process.
You ought not ask a question until you have answered one.
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Allowing a UK-wide customs union without the four freedoms is an INCREDIBLE concession from the EU. You have to try and look at it from the EU perspective, as opposed to the British one all the time.

The EU negotiated alongside the British government's red lines. They accepted not having a customs border in the Irish sea. They accepted the idea of a UK wide customs union. I genuinely have no idea what more they could have done, other than simply say "do whatever you want, we'll agree to it".
 
Siorac said:
This seems to be an alien concept to many Brexiteers. To them, it's perfectly natural that the UK protects its own interests but the EU is selfish and aloof and arrogant for doing so.
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I think its down to how the UK's relationship with the EU in the past 40 years. The Brexiteers had got used to the EU conceding on everything. In fact Thatcher's no no no speech is a cornerstone of British political truimph over the EU. What Brexiteers can't understand is that the EU did that not because it was frightened by the UK but simply to safeguard the single market from being ripped apart. Once the UK is out, its leverage is gone and the UK is no different to a mini US or China. If the latter can't bully the EU then surely the UK won't.
 
Buster15 said:
And I am pretty sure that I asked you how the EU had been helpful in the leaving process.
You ought not ask a question until you have answered one.
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I mean aside from the hundreds of hours all other heads of states have wasted discussing how to tell the British PM that Britain cannot be turned into a fairyland in which economic, social, physical, legal and moral limits don't exist simply by leaving a bloc...

The EU has been a lot more helpful then people like me welcome. At this point BOBO JRM and the rest of them should be left to their own devices until the general population has finally decided to take its vengeance out on them.
 
devilish said:
I think its down to how the UK's relationship with the EU in the past 40 years. The Brexiteers had got used to the EU conceding on everything. In fact Thatcher's no no no speech is a cornerstone of British political truimph over the EU. What Brexiteers can't understand is that the EU did that not because it was frightened by the UK but simply to safeguard the single market from being ripped apart. Once the UK is out, its leverage is gone and the UK is no different to a mini US or China. If the latter can't bully the EU then surely the UK won't.
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Yeah. Honestly, at the start of it all I was hoping that eventually the UK would come to its senses and cancel it all.

Now? I'm starting to feel that for the EU, that would be the worst case scenario. Not having to deal with the British exceptionalism anymore might actually be useful. Just a big shame about the economic pain of it.

Gosh, I sound like a Leaver now.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Just once I'd like someone to come on here and be able to give a reasoned discussion and actually offer solutions to the issues at hand, but they never can. They always just talk about liberty and sovereignty and the big bad EU and avoid answering questions around how to actually solve these issues. It's quite tragic, really.
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Yup. Been reading this thread for what? 2 years now? Not once has one of them come in with compelling arguements.... Unless I've missed them? But then I'm guessing they'd still be here, posting...
 
Siorac said:
Yeah. Honestly, at the start of it all I was hoping that eventually the UK would come to its senses and cancel it all.

Now? I'm starting to feel that for the EU, that would be the worst case scenario. Not having to deal with the British exceptionalism anymore might actually be useful. Just a big shame about the economic pain of it.

Gosh, I sound like a Leaver now.
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Yes and why not?
You get the feeling that the EU wants rid of the UK now, but is worried May might cancel Brexit altogether and the EU will then have the same old grumpy UK back, with Farage and his gang returning twice as many if the MEP election predictions are true. Britain back with all its requests for opt-outs and rebates back on the agenda, offering no help with the euro-zone problems as the UK retains sterling and worst of all fights all the way against establishing a Euro Army and vehemently opposes closer integration and of course still banging on about freedom of movement issues... why in heavens name would the EU want to hold on to us?
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes and why not?
You get the feeling that the EU wants rid of the UK now, but is worried May might cancel Brexit altogether and the EU will then have the same old grumpy UK back, with Farage and his gang returning twice as many if the MEP election predictions are true. Britain back with all its requests for opt-outs and rebates back on the agenda, offering no help with the euro-zone problems as the UK retains sterling and worst of all fights all the way against establishing a Euro Army and vehemently opposes closer integration and of course still banging on about freedom of movement issues... why in heavens name would the EU want to hold on to us?
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Well, yeah. That's pretty much exactly where I'm at, as an EU citizen in favour of integration.
 
To be so patronising while also providing nothing of substance whatsoever takes some doing.
 
Maticmaker said:
The backstop as it now stands is a hostage to fortune that no UK government can accept and it is why ultimately the binary choice will return, i.e. Leave with no deal, or cancel Brexit altogether.
The fact that May apparently accepted it, doesn't bode well for her or her Government in the future, whatever the outcome from Brexit. It is equivalent to the 'peace in our time' piece of paper a former British Prime minister waved as he got off the plane from Munich in the 1930's
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That's three times, keep repeating it won't make it any more true.

All possible alternatives were suggested by the EU which were rejected by May and it was her that wanted the backstop because she wouldn't agree with the alternatives.

Not back to the Uk's obsession with WW2.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
David Trimble is getting involved now with a legal challenge again at the backstop, saying it threatens the GFA
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Surely the first thing for all the politicians in NI to do is to re-populate Stormont and take direct rule away from London, otherwise Trimble's claims might be upheld?
 
It continually amazes me that people seem to think the EU should somehow give preferential treatment to a departing member state while damaging an existing member and if they do not do so they are painted as uncompromising or a bully.

the Withdrawal agreement that is negotiated is a bilateral agreement. No one was bullied into it. No one was forced to agree it.

Quite simply this is a divorce. One the UK asked for. The EU arent kicking them out. Its like a man divorcing his wife and then asking her to go easy on him through the divorce process, give him everything he wants even if it may be to her own detriment and on top of that come up with all the solutions as how to do that herself.

Ludicrous.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
That's three times, keep repeating it won't make it any more true.

All possible alternatives were suggested by the EU which were rejected by May and it was her that wanted the backstop because she wouldn't agree with the alternatives.

Not back to the Uk's obsession with WW2.
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Yes that's why I am saying when all this is over she will carry the can, or her party will for such a terrible error of judgement, akin to what happened in the thirties!
 
Maticmaker said:
Surely the first thing for all the politicians in NI to do is to re-populate Stormont and take direct rule away from London, otherwise Trimble's claims might be upheld?
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Why would the DUP have any interest in going back to Stormont when they currently have a direct line to the prime minister?
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes that's why I am saying when all this is over she will carry the can, or her party will for such a terrible error of judgement, akin to what happened in the thirties!
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The alternatives were the border in the Irish Sea, cancel Brexit or stay in the CU/SM - none of those are acceptable by any majority in parliament - so whether it was May , Corbyn , JRM or whoever , the outcome would have been the same.

There is no majority for any solution.
 
Abizzz said:
I mean aside from the hundreds of hours all other heads of states have wasted discussing how to tell the British PM that Britain cannot be turned into a fairyland in which economic, social, physical, legal and moral limits don't exist simply by leaving a bloc...

The EU has been a lot more helpful then people like me welcome. At this point BOBO JRM and the rest of them should be left to their own devices until the general population has finally decided to take its vengeance out on them.
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One thing you seem to have missed is that until the day we leave the EU we are going still a member and therefore all this effort you identify is actually part of EU business.

The EU are still complicit in this problem.
Much as I dislike David Cameron dealings in this, he did go to the EU and ask for meaningful change.

Did they listen - no.
Were they helping - no.

I am as appalled with how the UK has completely mismanaged our side of the leaving process.
But. To say that the EU has not hindered a smooth leaving is as I have mentioned naive in the extreme.
 
Buster15 said:
One thing you seem to have missed is that until the day we leave the EU we are going still a member and therefore all this effort you identify is actually part of EU business.

The EU are still complicit in this problem.
Much as I dislike David Cameron dealings in this, he did go to the EU and ask for meaningful change.

Did they listen - no.
Were they helping - no.

I am as appalled with how the UK has completely mismanaged our side of the leaving process.
But. To say that the EU has not hindered a smooth leaving is as I have mentioned naive in the extreme.
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Which meaningful changes did he ask? And the UK are 1/28 of the EU, if Cameron or anyone wants to propose meaningful changes the democratic way is to convince a majority of the 28 members.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The alternatives were the border in the Irish Sea, cancel Brexit or stay in the CU/SM - none of those are acceptable by any majority in parliament - so whether it was May , Corbyn , JRM or whoever , the outcome would have been the same.

There is no majority for any solution.
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There might be a majority for a CU?

Labour and libs would back it - SNP im not sure but they might... DUP- quite possibly if it ensures NI treated same as rest of UK

So if CU was official conservative policy then Im sure the vast majority of the cabinet and party loyalists would back it - certanly enough to get a majority - problem is May said we had to leave the CU and she clearly does not want to back down
 
sun_tzu said:
There might be a majority for a CU?

Labour and libs would back it - SNP im not sure but they might... DUP- quite possibly if it ensures NI treated same as rest of UK

So if CU was official conservative policy then Im sure the vast majority of the cabinet and party loyalists would back it - certanly enough to get a majority - problem is May said we had to leave the CU and she clearly does not want to back down
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Labour are backing a CU but the unicorn version where they can still negotiate their own trade deals and not follow EU rules.
That's why May would not agree the CU because she knows all the promises of "we'll have all these fantastic trade deals" could never happen.
 
Buster15 said:
One thing you seem to have missed is that until the day we leave the EU we are going still a member and therefore all this effort you identify is actually part of EU business.
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As far as i'm concerned Britain is a member until the 29th of March. Until then they'll need to do with the ways things have been done for the last 40 years, why suddenly change everything for a member who's leaving in 8 weeks? You asked:
Buster15 said:
I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.
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All other member states have plenty of problems of their own. Yet they keep meeting May whenever she asks for it (even when everyone knows it's just a charade) even though she hasn't once delivered on any of the deals she's agreed to in the entire process up to now. The EU is helping by keeping to it's commitment in the WA, a WA the UK Government negotiated and agreed to (as opposed to the UK side, who agreed to something it couldn't deliver on (how ironic) ).

Buster15 said:
The EU are still complicit in this problem.
Much as I dislike David Cameron dealings in this, he did go to the EU and ask for meaningful change.

Did they listen - no.
Were they helping - no.
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Cameron used the EU to tighten his grip on his party. No change the EU would have given would have been enough for the ERG. David Cameron WAS listened to... but he had no clue what to ask for, how to get it, or how to use it to achieve his actual goal once he got it. His "meaningful change" was the first chapter of a book of lies and deception.
Buster15 said:
I am as appalled with how the UK has completely mismanaged our side of the leaving process.
But. To say that the EU has not hindered a smooth leaving is as I have mentioned naive in the extreme.
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What do you expect? The EU's priorities are it's constituent countries interests. It's not a bipartisan arbiter, it's a political Union for the good of it's members.
 
@Bola

Genuine question. What do you want for the UK post Brexit? May has gone back to Brussels seeking "alternative arrangements" to the backstop - what do you think these should be?

If one person could actually propose a workable alternative, I'd be thrilled.
 
5 of Feb and it feels like we are sleepwalking into no deal...
 
JPRouve said:
Which meaningful changes did he ask? And the UK are 1/28 of the EU, if Cameron or anyone wants to propose meaningful changes the democratic way is to convince a majority of the 28 members.
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As someone who has a fair knowledge of this whole subject, you know as well as I do that it is a matter of record that Cameron discussed changes to the EU.

Yes. I quite agree that we are one of 28. But the EU would be deluded if they really believe that the EU is not beyond ways to improve. It is a far from optimum organisation.
 
Abizzz said:
As far as i'm concerned Britain is a member until the 29th of March. Until then they'll need to do with the ways things have been done for the last 40 years, why suddenly change everything for a member who's leaving in 8 weeks? You asked:
.
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And therein lies the problem.
We all know that the world is rapidly changing. In particular politics.

It is precisely because the EU is not receptive to change and steadfastly pushes towards a Federal Europe that makes it act like a self serving organisation.

I am not a Brexiteer. Far from it. But even I can see its flaws and who it's primary beneficiaries are.
 
Siorac said:
Allowing a UK-wide customs union without the four freedoms is an INCREDIBLE concession from the EU. You have to try and look at it from the EU perspective, as opposed to the British one all the time.
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Just to be a bit nitpicky here...

Allowing a customs union without the four freedoms (such as freedom of movement) is not unusual or exceptional. Turkey has a customs union with the EU without these freedoms. The four freedoms are seen as integral to the single market, which is very different from the customs union.

What is a partial concession from the EU, in the interests of avoiding a hard border, is to allow NI to benefit from some aspects of the single market without the four freedoms. Ironically, it is the DUP who hate this element as it makes a distinction between NI and the rest of the UK, even though being in the backstop would actually give NI a pretty good competitive advantage.

You are right that the EU’s first preference was for NI alone to remain in the customs union (and elements of the single market), rather than a UK-wide customs union, but it’s not related to the four freedoms. Long but thorough explanation of the negotiations: https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/1207/1015924-brexit-backstop-uk/
 
Buster15 said:
As someone who has a fair knowledge of this whole subject, you know as well as I do that it is a matter of record that Cameron discussed changes to the EU.

Yes. I quite agree that we are one of 28. But the EU would be deluded if they really believe that the EU is not beyond ways to improve. It is a far from optimum organisation.
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The EU is continuously improving and changing so that's not even a point to make. The EU is the 28 member states and the institution, this sentence makes very little sense when every country makes propositions, some are accepted others aren't, the shared sovereignty on common subjects means that you need to convince the cosovereigns, as long as people don't burn that into their minds we will get into these silly arguments.

When I read some of the posts, what I actually see is people that wants a dictatorship from a single member.
 
Buster15 said:
As someone who has a fair knowledge of this whole subject, you know as well as I do that it is a matter of record that Cameron discussed changes to the EU.

Yes. I quite agree that we are one of 28. But the EU would be deluded if they really believe that the EU is not beyond ways to improve. It is a far from optimum organisation.
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What you consider improvement could quite easily be considered a step back for others in the EU. Every organization will have it´s flaws. You can not make 28 countries equally happy in a single union so you have to make compromises to make it work. This is one of key issues a lot of Brexiters have with the EU that UK have to comprise rather than dictate things ( somehow this translate to lose of sovereignty ). The very same people support the United Kingdom, which is a political union just like the EU. The difference is in the UK England gets to dictate the political direction by far the majority of time to other members of the UK. In EU England lacks this ability to dictate and thus somehow their sovereignty is threatened in their eyes when they do not get to dominate the political process. If Brexiters really cared for English sovereignty then they should be supporting a English exit from the UK and Great Britain yet they are not. It is really about power and influence when it comes down to it for a large number of Brexiters. England need to respect other countries more and stop acting like petulant children when other countries say nope to their proposal or visions for the EU. If you want to leave then stop bitching and moaning about the consequences that you have caused by your own free will as you leave.

Personally i never want to see an EU based upon the visions of the Tories as it will be shit for the average person like the USA have become when you hand over too much power and influence to big businesses and billionaires.
 
Maticmaker said:
The backstop as it now stands is a hostage to fortune that no UK government can accept and it is why ultimately the binary choice will return, i.e. Leave with no deal, or cancel Brexit altogether.
The fact that May apparently accepted it, doesn't bode well for her or her Government in the future, whatever the outcome from Brexit. It is equivalent to the 'peace in our time' piece of paper a former British Prime minister waved as he got off the plane from Munich in the 1930's
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There's been no alternative put forward by the British Government though.

And as you rightly say May and her government did agree to it last year, most likely because there is no workable alternative within her own red lines.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Just to be a bit nitpicky here...

Allowing a customs union without the four freedoms (such as freedom of movement) is not unusual or exceptional. Turkey has a customs union with the EU without these freedoms. The four freedoms are seen as integral to the single market, which is very different from the customs union.

What is a partial concession from the EU, in the interests of avoiding a hard border, is to allow NI to benefit from some aspects of the single market without the four freedoms. Ironically, it is the DUP who hate this element as it makes a distinction between NI and the rest of the UK, even though being in the backstop would actually give NI a pretty good competitive advantage.

You are right that the EU’s first preference was for NI alone to remain in the customs union (and elements of the single market), rather than a UK-wide customs union, but it’s not related to the four freedoms. Long but thorough explanation of the negotiations: https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/1207/1015924-brexit-backstop-uk/
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It's a partial custom agreement that only concerns industrial goods and the borders are controlled.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Just to be a bit nitpicky here...

Allowing a customs union without the four freedoms (such as freedom of movement) is not unusual or exceptional. Turkey has a customs union with the EU without these freedoms. The four freedoms are seen as integral to the single market, which is very different from the customs union.

What is a partial concession from the EU, in the interests of avoiding a hard border, is to allow NI to benefit from some aspects of the single market without the four freedoms. Ironically, it is the DUP who hate this element as it makes a distinction between NI and the rest of the UK, even though being in the backstop would actually give NI a pretty good competitive advantage.

You are right that the EU’s first preference was for NI alone to remain in the customs union (and elements of the single market), rather than a UK-wide customs union, but it’s not related to the four freedoms. Long but thorough explanation of the negotiations: https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/1207/1015924-brexit-backstop-uk/
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And the DUP don't like it because of the danger that people in NI start to think that they actually like this arrangement better than anything the UK can negotiate in terms of a Future Relationship. They clearly envisage circumstances where any referendum on a united Ireland could go against them.
 
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