Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Bola]

So apparently the people of sunderland are getting what they asked for. The new X-trail will be manufactured in Japan, not Brexit Britain.

Is that decision a direct consequence of Brexit or a reaction to changes in the policy/ regulatory stance on larger diesel engine cars that is likely to signifcantly shrink the demand across the Europe markets?

 

[Bola]

I'm pretty swayed towards this argument in general to be honest.

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/nnydd8/brexit-proves-baby-boomers-should-get-less-of-a-vote

Yeah let's give extra weighting to relatively less experienced individuals, with relatively limited responsibility and with their minds still relatively obscured by idealism

Even better, let's make every vote for 'left' policies worth 10.

FFS

 

[Bola]

It all leads back to one problem, there never should have been referendum such as we had. Its been said many times but such a drastic change to the political and economic system should have never been decided by a simple majority.

How should have it have been decided?

 

[Bola]

Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude

 

[Rajma]

Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude

I hope you’re not serious here.

 

[Rajma]

How should have it have been decided?

Large majority

 

[Rajma]

Is that decision a direct consequence of Brexit or a reaction to changes in the policy/ regulatory stance on larger diesel engine cars that is likely to signifcantly shrink the demand across the Europe markets?

Brexit, their statement said as much and obviously recent trade deal signed between Japan and EU.

 

[Bola]

I actually have been wondering about this. Whether (assuming the worst), we end up going back to the EU in an unspecified period of time (could be 50+ years for all I know) for reinstatement into the EU. Except this time, it would probably be on their terms and all of the opt outs we had would no longer be in play.

I generally like O'Brien but he loves talking over people doesn't he? He's literally telling this guy he's one of his most interesting callers and spends much of the time talking over him. Strange.

Though I didn't understand his reasoning for saying he'd vote leave again? Despite talking about how terrible he currently thinks it is?

If the EU is there in 50 years, may not even make it beyond the next decade given the way continental European politics are changing and the rapid growth of some economies outside of the EU

 

[Bola]

Large majority

I hope you are not serious

 

[Rajma]

I hope you are not serious

Because simple majority on such issue proven to be a success given how equally split the country is?

 

[Bola]

I hope you’re not serious here.

I am serious.

The general stance has been a lack of compromise. It existed before Brexit where Cameron tried to get concessions to avoid a referendum

They are as much to blame for the lack of a 'clean' Brexit as May's government. 2 (arguably 3) years wasted

 

[Bola]

Because simple majority on such issue proven to be a success given how equally split the country is?

It's undermining democracy. You are essentially giving weight to one side of the argument

 

[Shinjch]

I am serious.

The general stance has been a lack of compromise. It existed before Brexit where Cameron tried to get concessions to avoid a referendum

They are as much to blame for the lack of a 'clean' Brexit as May's government. 2 (arguably 3) years wasted

You do realise that the backstop is a UK government idea that the EU have already compromised on, right?

 

[Bola]

Brexit, their statement said as much and obviously recent trade deal signed between Japan and EU.

I understood that the letter made a reference to Brexit as a factor, but the main reasons were stated were falling sales of the model and changing regulations around diesel?

 

[JPRouve]

Does not seem like they are willing to compromise on something heavily rejected in the UK. Classic EU aloof attitude

To compromise you need to have an actual alternative.

 

[Bola]

You do realise that the backstop is a UK government idea that the EU have already compromised on, right?

Not quite sure of the origin (as in was it a UK suggest after the EU rejected an alternate solution) as like the vast majority of others, I was not party to the series of negotiations

The fact is that it is a key factor in the overwhelming rejection of May's. The EU need to compromose if they want a deal*

* 'If' is a key word. It's their choice how they want to approach the negotiations, but they should be judged according on how conducive/ motivated they are to securing a deal that both sides are happy with

 

[Wibble]

I am serious.

The general stance has been a lack of compromise. It existed before Brexit where Cameron tried to get concessions to avoid a referendum

They are as much to blame for the lack of a 'clean' Brexit as May's government. 2 (arguably 3) years wasted

They really aren't.

a) The EU have been far more helpful than they needed to be and
b) It isn't their responsibility to compromise even further to the point of damaging themselves for the benefit of a country that will no longer be part of the EU and who have acted in such bad faith.

It is not their actions that have brought us here so they are not to blame.

 

[Raulduke]

Interesting thread. Who'd have thought democrats taking control of congress would have implications for stuff other than Trump/Russia.

 

[Bola]

To compromise you need to have an actual alternative.

In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based

 

[Shinjch]

Not quite sure of the origin (as in was it a UK suggest after the EU rejected an alternate solution) as like the vast majority of others, I was not party to the series of negotiations

The fact is that it is a key factor in the overwhelming rejection of May's. The EU need to compromose if they want a deal*

* 'If' is a key word. It's their choice how they want to approach the negotiations, but they should be judged according on how conducive/ motivated they are to securing a deal that both sides are happy with

Well yes, it was the UK that proprosed the backstop. Which would only take effect if alternative arrangements can't be found. Which makes it all the more strange that the brexit crew are so against if they don't think it will be a problem to get alternative arrangements in place. If they think that alternative arrangements can be worked out easily enough then what is the problem?

In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based

So you are ok with free movement of people to the UK over this 'virtual' border?​

 

[Bola]

They really aren't.

a) The EU have been far more helpful than they needed to be and
b) It isn't their responsibility to compromise even further to the point of damaging themselves for the benefit of a country that will no longer be part of the EU and who have acted in such bad faith.

It is not their actions that have brought us here so they are not to blame.

The set up of the EU is a key underlying factor for Brexit. Their arrogance and stubbornness will likely be the fuel for their eventual demise

 

[Bola]

Well yes, it was the UK that proprosed the backstop. Which would only take effect if alternative arrangements can't be found. Which makes it all the more strange that the brexit crew are so against if they don't think it will be a problem to get alternative arrangements in place. If they think that alternative arrangements can be worked out easily enough then what is the problem?

My understanding is how the backstop is ended. If it's not a fixed period, or cannot be exited unilaterally (without penalty) then its worse than being a full memeber state. It's not Brexit it's Br-surrender liberty

 

[Shinjch]

My understanding is how the backstop is ended. If it's not a fixed period, or cannot be exited unilaterally (without penalty) then its worse than being a full memeber state. It's not Brexit it's Br-surrender liberty

But what is your fear of falling into the backstop if such alternative arrangements are so easily arrived at?

 

[Wibble]

The set up of the EU is a key underlying factor for Brexit. Their arrogance and stubbornness will likely be the fuel for their eventual demise

What a load of cock. Our politicians are far worse - arrogant and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. We blame the EU for an incredible range of things most/all of which aren't their fault. We are a laughing stock.

 

[golden_blunder]

Interesting thread. Who'd have thought democrats taking control of congress would have implications for stuff other than Trump/Russia.

It really shouldn’t be a complete surprise should it? I mean the Irish are quite powerful in the US and won’t have forgotten that Britain have history of screwing over the Irish

 

[devilish]

Liam Fox - its irresponsible for the EU not to discuss the backstop
Interview - would you be willing to discuss some form of a custom union
Liam Fox - No

 

[JPRouve]

In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based

None of that fix the WTO issue, if you don't want a border you need to be in the same custom area. That's the only way to be legally in line with WTO rules.

 

[Bola]

But what is your fear of falling into the backstop if such alternative arrangements are so easily arrived at?

The lack of or severely limited ability to leave a backstop. If its not under basic principles I stated earlier, it's a surrender of liberty. Not sure sure if I can explain in any other way that it is unacceptable

 

[Smores]

It's undermining democracy. You are essentially giving weight to one side of the argument

No it really isn't, that's such a simple view. Democracy isn't just a hands up majority rules arrangement it's supposed to protect the rights of the minority too which is why plenty of referendums around the world need a significant majority and not just +1 person.

 

[Shinjch]

The lack of or severely limited ability to leave a backstop. If its not under basic principles I stated earlier, it's a surrender of liberty. Not sure sure if I can explain in any other way that it is unacceptable

My question isn't what is your fear of being in the backstop. It is more to do with your fear of the backstop becoming a reality if these alternative arrangements are so easy to come by? The backstop will not be an issue at all if you are to believe what the likes of Johnson, Mogg and Farage say about the irish border being a non-issue.

 

[Rajma]

Interesting thread. Who'd have thought democrats taking control of congress would have implications for stuff other than Trump/Russia.

Dublin is going to be a gate for US to the EU now that UK decided to leave. UK can forget the special relationship it had with the US now that they have no leverage. Well done.

 

[Bola]

What a load of cock. Our politicians are far worse - arrogant and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. We blame the EU for an incredible range of things most/all of which aren't their fault. We are a laughing stock.

The status of UK politicians, does not change the culture and attitudes of EU actors.

I earlier put blame on May's government for the handling of Brexit. My hope is the next election will see a clear out of dross politicians across the spectrum but I won't hold my breath

 

[Massive Spanner]

In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based

How does a virtual border work?

What happens once the two years are over that ensures there's no hard border when the backstop is gone?

 

[Bola]

None of that fix the WTO issue, if you don't want a border you need to be in the same custom area. That's the only way to be legally in line with WTO rules.

Interesting point. I try and have a look into that for my own education

 

[Buster15]

They really aren't.

a) The EU have been far more helpful than they needed to be and
b) It isn't their responsibility to compromise even further to the point of damaging themselves for the benefit of a country that will no longer be part of the EU and who have acted in such bad faith.

It is not their actions that have brought us here so they are not to blame.

I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.

My view is that the EU, either overtly or covertly has tried to make our leaving as difficult as possible without making it obvious.
It would be naive to suppose that they have bent over backwards to make it easy.
Why would they. A large country like the UK leaving is obviously a big blow to the whole concept of a Federal Europe.

 

[Wibble]

The status of UK politicians, does not change the culture and attitudes of EU actors.

I earlier put blame on May's government for the handling of Brexit. My hope is the next election will see a clear out of dross politicians across the spectrum but I won't hold my breath

Choosing by far the worst option based on the very characteristics that we are far worse for is idiotic. And the EU the EU have behaved very well through Brexit despite this odd perception of them and despite them not acting purely in their own self interest. I'd take abolishing the UK parliament and letting Brussels run us over Brexit every day of the week and twice on St George's day.

 

[JPRouve]

I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.

My view is that the EU, either overtly or covertly has tried to make our leaving as difficult as possible without making it obvious.
It would be naive to suppose that they have bent over backwards to make it easy.
Why would they. A large country like the UK leaving is obviously a big blow to the whole concept of a Federal Europe.

I'm pretty sure that I already asked you this question but how did the EU made it as difficult as possible?

 

[stevoc]

Not quite sure of the origin (as in was it a UK suggest after the EU rejected an alternate solution) as like the vast majority of others, I was not party to the series of negotiations

The fact is that it is a key factor in the overwhelming rejection of May's. The EU need to compromose if they want a deal*

* 'If' is a key word. It's their choice how they want to approach the negotiations, but they should be judged according on how conducive/ motivated they are to securing a deal that both sides are happy with

To be fair they did make compromises and they did agree a deal. Then the UK government went back on that deal and are now asking for more compromise. I can't say i blame them for not wanting to re-open negotiations.

 

[devilish]

I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.

My view is that the EU, either overtly or covertly has tried to make our leaving as difficult as possible without making it obvious.
It would be naive to suppose that they have bent over backwards to make it easy.
Why would they. A large country like the UK leaving is obviously a big blow to the whole concept of a Federal Europe.

What the EU cares about is taking care of its own interest. Which is exactly what all EU citizens expect it to do. Its not up to the EU to make Brexit a success.

 

[Bola]

My question isn't what is your fear of being in the backstop. It is more to do with your fear of the backstop becoming a reality if these alternative arrangements are so easy to come by? The backstop will not be an issue at all if you are to believe what the likes of Johnson, Mogg and Farage say about the irish border being a non-issue.

I've saidbwhat I've had to say. I would not join a 'backstop' that surrenders liberty with no get out.

In terms of alternate arrangements, anything is possible with the right attitude. As it stands, May's outfit have been weak and disorganised, while the EU have not shown willing/ gave not been pressed to compromise. That's why we are in this unclean Brexit situation.

A chance in stance by both sides and a drop in adverse behaviour would do wonders