[JB7]

Would be quite the turn-around. He was one of the worst shot stoppers in Serie A last season, whereas De Gea actually performed at a level close to his peak (game by game) after a few poor seasons.

If we're literally just talking shot stopping...

De Gea was nowhere near his peak last season, he was a net -0.7 (or -0.02 per 90 minutes) PSxG and was only a net + once in the past 5 seasons. You may be thinking of 21/22, where he performed at near peak level in terms of the shot-stopping statistics for a period during the middle of the season but dropped off massively at the end of the season to end with a +1.1 overall.

Onana was lower you're correct, 13th of the 20 goakeepers in Serie A to play more than 20 matches with a net -2.7 (or -0.11 per 90 minutes) PSxG. However he has been a net + in three of the past 5 seasons, with the other minus being 21/22 where he only played 6 games after the lengthy ban.

Onana's -0.11 would have also been 13th of the 19 goalkeepers to play more than 20 games in the Premier League last season, just above Ederson in 14th. De Gea for reference was 10th.

Of course this is mostly redundant as the bigger issue with De Gea was that he offered nothing whatsoever in terms of preventing shots on goal, his refusal to leave his line led to us playing with iirc the fifth deepest defensive line in the entire league last season which is completely at odds with how ETH wants us to play and he also continually gave the ball away leading to more attacks against us (and by extension, shots on his goal). So while this is about a lot more than shot-stopping, the raw data shows that across the season De Gea's shot stopping is barely better than Onana's anyway.

 

[bosnian_red]

Full detailed vid

 

[NLunited]

Are you saying the people who criticised De Gea were hounders and moaners?

A player who was objectively bad or poor for us and you're making it out like people were being bias against him?

I think your quote is what you want to happen because it would validate your own and a few other's constant one-sided defence and deferral on whenever De Gea would get criticism.

If Onana plays bad, he will get criticism, not because it's an agenda, just like how it was with De Gea.

Um the criticism of DeGea was way over the top, objectively speaking.
It wasn’t so much a bias against DeGea, but an overreaction and frankly, hate, of some posters.
I fully expect the same people to lose their cookies when Onana makes some mistakes. Which is almost inevitable because of his high risk high reward playstyle.

So, I’m a bit apprehensive about it, yes.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Um the criticism of DeGea was way over the top, objectively speaking.
It wasn’t so much a bias against DeGea, but an overreaction and frankly, hate, of some posters.
I fully expect the same people to lose their cookies when Onana makes some mistakes. Which is almost inevitable because of his high risk high reward playstyle.

So, I’m a bit apprehensive about it, yes.

Unfortunately for you, objective stats of De Gea's performances over the last few years were bad and most of the criticism reflected this. If Onana delivers what most of us expect of him, you will visibly see the difference. You may find it hard to swallow your pride to admit where De Gea's deficiencies lay and how it affected our team i.e what you saw as 'over the top' was actually just rational criticism and viewing of the game.

There may have been a few posters that was hyperbolic but that's the same for every player.

There were a few, like yourself, who were almost fanatically trying to shut down the narrative of De Gea being poor and paint this narrative of 'stop bullying our club legend, he's not as bad as you say', who I may expect to start giving Onana a shorter leash. Most people will be quite reasonably I believe.

 

[PSV]

Your nickname suggests that you don't have a soft spot for anything Ajax related but I could be wrong of course.

To be fair after VDB and Antony I doubt any of us have a soft spot, but there's no thorn in my side, my nickname is not linked to the club.

If we're literally just talking shot stopping...

De Gea was nowhere near his peak last season, he was a net -0.7 (or -0.02 per 90 minutes) PSxG and was only a net + once in the past 5 seasons. You may be thinking of 21/22, where he performed at near peak level in terms of the shot-stopping statistics for a period during the middle of the season but dropped off massively at the end of the season to end with a +1.1 overall.

Onana was lower you're correct, 13th of the 20 goakeepers in Serie A to play more than 20 matches with a net -2.7 (or -0.11 per 90 minutes) PSxG. However he has been a net + in three of the past 5 seasons, with the other minus being 21/22 where he only played 6 games after the lengthy ban.

Onana's -0.11 would have also been 13th of the 19 goalkeepers to play more than 20 games in the Premier League last season, just above Ederson in 14th. De Gea for reference was 10th.

Of course this is mostly redundant as the bigger issue with De Gea was that he offered nothing whatsoever in terms of preventing shots on goal, his refusal to leave his line led to us playing with iirc the fifth deepest defensive line in the entire league last season which is completely at odds with how ETH wants us to play and he also continually gave the ball away leading to more attacks against us (and by extension, shots on his goal). So while this is about a lot more than shot-stopping, the raw data shows that across the season De Gea's shot stopping is barely better than Onana's anyway.

My post says game by game. We didn't end 6th last year on account of our goal difference did we?

De Gea had 12 games where he performed below PSxG (in 38 games), whereas Onana did so in 14 out of his 24 games. The last time he had 12 games was in 2017-18.

Like I pointed out in my previous post (in the thread) there's the 3-4 absolute horror shows that makes what was a fairly good shot stopping season seem average.

 

[JB7]

To be fair after VDB and Antony I doubt any of us have a soft spot, but there's no thorn in my side, my nickname is not linked to the club.


My post says game by game. We didn't end 6th last year on account of our goal difference did we?

De Gea had 12 games where he performed below PSxG (in 38 games), whereas Onana did so in 14 out of his 24 games. The last time he had 12 games was in 2017-18.

Like I pointed out in my previous post (in the thread) there's the 3-4 absolute horror shows that makes what was a fairly good shot stopping season seem average.

The issue is that “fairly good” shot stopping is nowhere near good when every other aspect of your game is abysmal and the team has to alter how they play both in and out of possession to accommodate you.

Onana has shown previously his shot stopping can consistently be of a good level and it’s up to him to get back to the level he was at previously. Every other aspect of his game is light years ahead, mind and that is why we signed him.

I would mention the flaws in the PSxG model that De Gea’s biggest supporters were bringing up all last season, after championing the same stat so strongly in 21/22. My view there is a relevance to the stat, but only when looked at across an extended period of time, on a game by game basis it’s not a reasonable metric to use as it’s more about xG flipped rather than anything specifically outrageous that the goalkeeper has done, whereas across a period of time you see an overall trend related more to the goalkeeper than a particular striker in a particular game.

 

[Pickle85]

The issue is that “fairly good” shot stopping is nowhere near good when every other aspect of your game is abysmal and the team has to alter how they play both in and out of possession to accommodate you.

Onana has shown previously his shot stopping can consistently be of a good level and it’s up to him to get back to the level he was at previously. Every other aspect of his game is light years ahead, mind and that is why we signed him.

I would mention the flaws in the PSxG model that De Gea’s biggest supporters were bringing up all last season, after championing the same stat so strongly in 21/22. My view there is a relevance to the stat, but only when looked at across an extended period of time, on a game by game basis it’s not a reasonable metric to use as it’s more about xG flipped rather than anything specifically outrageous that the goalkeeper has done, whereas across a period of time you see an overall trend related more to the goalkeeper than a particular striker in a particular game.

He's left buddy, you can let it go. Time to find another united player to irrationally detest.

 

[PSV]

The issue is that “fairly good” shot stopping is nowhere near good when every other aspect of your game is abysmal and the team has to alter how they play both in and out of possession to accommodate you.

Onana has shown previously his shot stopping can consistently be of a good level and it’s up to him to get back to the level he was at previously. Every other aspect of his game is light years ahead, mind and that is why we signed him.

I would mention the flaws in the PSxG model that De Gea’s biggest supporters were bringing up all last season, after championing the same stat so strongly in 21/22. My view there is a relevance to the stat, but only when looked at across an extended period of time, on a game by game basis it’s not a reasonable metric to use as it’s more about xG flipped rather than anything specifically outrageous that the goalkeeper has done, whereas across a period of time you see an overall trend related more to the goalkeeper than a particular striker in a particular game.

I'm looking at it the way you think you are looking at it. By looking at number of games outperforming PSxG you find out the number of games the keeper through shop stopping would have made a difference (could have "flipped") if the game was close.

The way you look at PSxG you effectively nullify several solid performances because someone ships 7 goals when the whole team is having a mare.

 

[JB7]

I'm looking at it the way you think you are looking at it. By looking at number of games outperforming PSxG you find out the number of games the keeper through shop stopping would have made a difference (could have "flipped") if the game was close.

The way you look at PSxG you effectively nullify several solid performances because someone ships 7 goals when the whole team is having a mare.

That’s no different to a game where you should concede several goals but ultimately concede none because of the oppositions poor finishing, or because of your own outstanding saves. And from memory there were at least 3 goals he could/should have done better on in that game (and I still haven’t even seen the 7th because I left at 6-0) and Liverpool had an xG of around 3, so it didn’t even affect his overall PSxG that badly. And as I said, his PSxG would need to be absolutely outstanding to combat how poor every other aspect of his game is. It’s interesting that nobody wants him, isn’t it?

 

[sglowrider]

 

[MadDogg]

It will be mostly the same people hounding DeGea that will criticize Onana, mark my words.

Pretty sure it'll be the other way around. The people defending De Gea were the ones who constantly talk about his brilliant shot-stopping ability (which he hasn't had for five years anyway) and will use that as a stick to beat Onana for half the goals he concedes, pretending 'De Gea would have saved that'. Most of those criticising De Gea wanted him out because of how poor he is at every other aspect other than shot-stopping (which has declined massively but is still the only part of his game that is average or above) and will appreciate the benefits that Onana brings to the team as a whole.

Obviously there will be some who just want to complain either way, but I'm expecting most of the people who give Onana significant criticism will be the De Gea fans. Unless he actually does fail of course in which case both 'sides' will be criticising him, but hopefully that won't happen.

 

[Pronewbie]

One thing I never liked about De Gea is this seeming resistance to improve on his weaknesses. It's like he completely shunned distribution, crossing and movement practice. He relied on pure talent and instincts with some modifications to his goalkeeping technique.

I look at the simple stuff Onana does so well like his movement to offer himself as an outlet, and his distribution while NOT under pressure, and I find it ridiculous that the highest-paid Goalkeeper in the world can't even get the basics down competently.

 

[NLunited]

One thing I never liked about De Gea is this seeming resistance to improve on his weaknesses. It's like he completely shunned distribution, crossing and movement practice. He relied on pure talent and instincts with some modifications to his goalkeeping technique.

I look at the simple stuff Onana does so well like his movement to offer himself as an outlet, and his distribution while NOT under pressure, and I find it ridiculous that the highest-paid Goalkeeper in the world can't even get the basics down competently.

imo DeGea improved a lot during LvG time, then regressed, especially his distribution. There are rumours he didn’t like the full integration training (gk takes part in most of outfield player’s drills).

It does seem like he consciously didn’t try to get to crosses.

Water under the bridge, we got the best available ball-playing gk now.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I look at the simple stuff Onana does so well like his movement to offer himself as an outlet, and his distribution while NOT under pressure, and I find it ridiculous that the highest-paid Goalkeeper in the world can't even get the basics down competently.

I’m with you on that. The absolute basics of football. Pass the ball and move into space to give the receiver another option. Onana does it every time. De Gea’s apparent inability to get the hang of such basic stuff was very strange.

 

[tenpoless]

His impact won't be instant since the players are used to De Gea. Give it 10-15 games and we'll be seeing a different backline.

 

[Borys]

To be fair after VDB and Antony I doubt any of us have a soft spot, but there's no thorn in my side, my nickname is not linked to the club.


My post says game by game. We didn't end 6th last year on account of our goal difference did we?

De Gea had 12 games where he performed below PSxG (in 38 games), whereas Onana did so in 14 out of his 24 games. The last time he had 12 games was in 2017-18.

Like I pointed out in my previous post (in the thread) there's the 3-4 absolute horror shows that makes what was a fairly good shot stopping season seem average.

I see where you're getting at, but there's a big flaw in this approach. xG by design is impacted by luck/bad fortune. This is why looking at single games makes no sense, as the "luck" factor will play a huge role in the final xG/ and result. You get the full picture if you look at final xG over a big sample (of shots).

So in another words, you're ignoring the "bad" games De Gea had (and we can agree this was a bit of bad luck involved), but if that's the case you should also exclude some games when he was on the lucky side. Obviously it's impossible to tell, but if we agree that this factor plays a role, then again - excluding some games makes no sense to analyse xG. Not to mention you should exclude bad games from other keepers, and the baseline changes.

However, I do see your point and I kind of agree. De Gea had a few good games for us last season, saved our asses. He wasn't a bad shot stopper overall, it's just we remember the bad stuff because well, those were some big games unfortunately.

Anyway, you can't exclude extreme results / games because it introduces major flaw to the analysis. He was average shot stopper last season overall.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Are there any United legend who seem to understand the modern game, every time they speak it seems like they're still stuck in the early 00's and 90's.
The point is to actually be an extra outfielder during our build up, it is how you create numerical superiority and control possession. Does he think he does it for showmanship or he can't fathom football tactics?

I like watching Keane, Gary and Rio because they are funny and because they are our ex players but their take on football is awful. Keane and Gary are hypocrites who are biased to some players and Rio is just a muppet.
Scholes is just a moaner. He will moan even if we win a treble.

 

[ColvaleGoa]

 

[Andycoleno9]

This is actually good stuff.

 

[Syphon Wallet]

Was noticable how real stopped trying to press him with any conviction, it's basically a waste of energy.

 

[sullydnl]

One thing I never liked about De Gea is this seeming resistance to improve on his weaknesses. It's like he completely shunned distribution, crossing and movement practice. He relied on pure talent and instincts with some modifications to his goalkeeping technique.

I look at the simple stuff Onana does so well like his movement to offer himself as an outlet, and his distribution while NOT under pressure, and I find it ridiculous that the highest-paid Goalkeeper in the world can't even get the basics down competently.

De Gea's distribution did improve. The problem is that the general standard of goalkeeper distribution and the expectations placed on goalkeepers ourstripped that improvement across his career.

People sometimes have a notion in their head that De Gea's passing now is the same or worse than it was when he arrived (a point at which it was considered to be pretty good). But the fact that his pass completion in his first season here was 56% versus the 71-78% it has been across his last four season reflects how the demands on him in terms of standards and style of play have shifted. Even while facing much more aggressive and organised opposition pressure than in his early PL days.

Or to put it another way, his distribution did improve across his time here but it didn't improve enough that he looked near as good relative to the likes of Ederson and Alisson as he did relative to their 2011 equivalents in Hart, Reina, Cech, etc. But I'm not sure how much you can really expect someone to adapt like that. Spending that long as a goalkeeper at a top side is rare, let alone when the expectations on goalkeepers shift so dramatically across that period.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Not as good as the Darwin Nunez guy

 

[Pogue Mahone]

De Gea's distribution did improve. The problem is that the general standard of goalkeeper distribution and the expectations placed on goalkeepers ourstripped that improvement across his career.

People sometimes have a notion in their head that De Gea's passing now is the same or worse than it was when he arrived (a point at which it was considered to be pretty good). But the fact that his pass completion in his first season here was 56% versus the 71-78% it has been across his last four season reflects how the demands on him in terms of standards and style of play have shifted. Even while facing much more aggressive and organised opposition pressure than in his early PL days.

Or to put it another way, his distribution did improve across his time here but it didn't improve enough that he looked near as good relative to the likes of Ederson and Alisson as he did relative to their 2011 equivalents in Hart, Reina, Cech, etc. But I'm not sure how much you can really expect someone to adapt like that. Spending that long as a goalkeeper at a top side is rare, let alone when the expectations on goalkeepers shift so dramatically across that period.

The change in the way the game is played could explain that without any improvement in his individual skillset. Just look at goalkicks now vs a few years ago. You never saw the short sideways pass from a goalkick that is routine now. The more goalkeepers play those short passes to feet the better their overall pass completion %.

A goalkeeper who was really determined to evolve would look a lot more at ease passing with his weaker foot and better able to pass along the ground between the lines than we ever saw from DDG. It’s obviously possible he just hit a ceiling and those skills were completely beyond him but that’s hard to tally up with a goalkeeper who arrived at United with a reputation for being extremely comfortable with the ball at his feet.

 

[calodo2003]

Not as good as the Darwin Nunez guy

That's triggering, being reminded of that guy. I had compartmentalized him.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Do i have wrong impression about him about claiming high balls? I don't see that he is much more proactive in that than De Gea? I don't know his stats about that though. Just impression from what i see in games.

 

[mu4c_20le]

That's triggering, being reminded of that guy. I had compartmentalized him.

Envy you. His first rendition will forever be embedded in my mind.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Do i have wrong impression about him about claiming high balls? I don't see that he is much more proactive in that than De Gea? I don't know his stats about that though. Just impression from what i see in games.

Stats about claiming crosses are similar to DDG. The ones I saw anyway.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Stats about claiming crosses are similar to DDG. The ones I saw anyway.

Yeah, i noticed how he is stuck on his line during crosses and making reflex saves (just like Dave did). Oh boy, when some people realise that....

 

[PSV]

Do i have wrong impression about him about claiming high balls? I don't see that he is much more proactive in that than De Gea? I don't know his stats about that though. Just impression from what i see in games.

He's "average" (5.3%), whereas De Gea is below average (2.9%). His numbers last year would put him at around 16/17th in the league whereas De Gea was 20th. It's an upgrade I suppose.

 

[The_Midfielder]

Calm down guys.. He is not Schmeichel with ederson's feet..
He has his weakness.. His strengths..
His strengths compliment our team, hence we bought him..
He is no messiah..he is a modern goalkeeper.. Better on the foot.. And not a shot stopper like Dave..
He will make mistakes. .. Ederson is an average keeper.. but his qualities on the ball is more valuable to Pep.so same with Onana

 

[Tarrou]

Calm down guys.. He is not Schmeichel with ederson's feet..
He has his weakness.. His strengths..
His strengths compliment our team, hence we bought him..
He is no messiah..he is a modern goalkeeper.. Better on the foot.. And not a shot stopper like Dave..
He will make mistakes. .. Ederson is an average keeper.. but his qualities on the ball is more valuable to Pep.so same with Onana

schmeichel definitely had a mistake or two in him in fairness

people tend to forget that nowadays

 

[CoopersDream]

Very, very happy with this signing. Big fan of de Gea, but it was time to move on and as far as I can tell we couldn't get a much better goalkeeper than Onana.

His debut was absolutely solid. To me his most important attribute is being absolute elite with the ball at his feet. So calm with the ball, can pass it with both feet. This will absolutely give our team the foundation it needs to properly play modern football, granted I think there is quite a few of our outfield players that aren't really equipped to play in this way - but you got to start from somewhere. Looking forward to the new season with Onana between the sticks.

 

[calodo2003]

Can’t remember seeing him punt or take a long goal kick. What is his preferred foot?

 

[AnotherLondonManc]

Can’t remember seeing him punt or take a long goal kick. What is his preferred foot?

Right, but he's comfortable on his left too

 

[calodo2003]

Right, but he's comfortable on his left too

I honestly couldn’t tell what was his preferred foot when watching him v. Real, he seemed so at ease with either.

 

[Pronewbie]

De Gea's distribution did improve. The problem is that the general standard of goalkeeper distribution and the expectations placed on goalkeepers ourstripped that improvement across his career.

People sometimes have a notion in their head that De Gea's passing now is the same or worse than it was when he arrived (a point at which it was considered to be pretty good). But the fact that his pass completion in his first season here was 56% versus the 71-78% it has been across his last four season reflects how the demands on him in terms of standards and style of play have shifted. Even while facing much more aggressive and organised opposition pressure than in his early PL days.

Or to put it another way, his distribution did improve across his time here but it didn't improve enough that he looked near as good relative to the likes of Ederson and Alisson as he did relative to their 2011 equivalents in Hart, Reina, Cech, etc. But I'm not sure how much you can really expect someone to adapt like that. Spending that long as a goalkeeper at a top side is rare, let alone when the expectations on goalkeepers shift so dramatically across that period.

Barely. When he joined, it was the norm to punt long balls, which he was never bad at. And don't just focus on distribution as his only weakness. They all barely improved even though he joined as a kid in GK terms - which is my point.

 

[The United]

He is vocal. I love his long kicks which are so accurate. I am not used to this kind of distribution from our keeper yet.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

His passing range is ridiculously good.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Absolute baller. Will transform our ability to control games.

 

[ElectroManiac]

Those long passes to Rashford where beautiful. To bad Rashford could not do better with them.