VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

[Telsim]

I’m fine with the offside rule, I mean if the argument is to allow goals if it’s close, where do you draw the line? A toe nail is fine but a whole foot isn’t? A close call is a tough one to take but ultimately so be it, at least it’s not arbitrary

the handball rule is absolutely bullshit though. Taking proximity out is ridiculous as is this expectation that defenders should be running around with their hands behind their backs - something not expected of attackers. Just ridiculous

Well, why can't you make the same argument for the handball? A handball is a handball, no matter how light the touch, the intent, or if any advantage was gained. Anything else is arbitrary. Defenders should simply be aware of their hands at all times, just like how attackers should be aware of their feet, heads, shoulders, and knees. If the hands are in an unnatural position, it's a penalty.

It's crap. Just like how the offside rule has been pushed to a stupid extreme with the help of a machine.

 

[Rajma]

Ruined the game, get rid.

 

[2 man midfield]

The American woman is 'great' in the same way a very slick politician is great. Her job seems to be to explain the decisions, but also to arrive at the conclusion that the refs are always right and justified. She speaks well and explains well but is ultimately boring as her conclusion will always be that the decisions are correct


As for Oliver, he shouldn't be a championship ref.

Yeah I’m not seeing much difference between what she does and what dermot Gallagher does on sky sports. Both there to break the rules down and explain why the ref got it absolutely spot on and should never be questioned.

 

[2 man midfield]

I’m fine with the offside rule, I mean if the argument is to allow goals if it’s close, where do you draw the line? A toe nail is fine but a whole foot isn’t? A close call is a tough one to take but ultimately so be it, at least it’s not arbitrary

The only decent argument I’ve seen is having thicker lines. But even then you’re just going to get the same instances of ‘there’s only a millimetre in it’ when the thicker lines are drawn on.

Personally I’d keep the automated offsides, but bin off var completely. There’s too much subjectivity in a sport that demands consistency.

 

[ArtetasHair]

Feck off with this pretentious crap. The offside rule was created so that players don't hang around behind the defensive line and wait for the ball to be lobbed to them turning the game into a tennis match. It was not created for microscopic "offside" positions that offer no one any advantage. Positions that a human being can't even tell at a glance, so you need some uber-duper special system to measure it. Because a human can't. That's what's actually ridiculous.

VAR is crap that has no place in the game in its current iteration. I was initially for it because I assumed it would be used for... clear and obvious errors, like the Hand of God, or unsportsmanlike conduct that goes unnoticed. Not for measuring whether or not someone's toe was in an offside position. I imagine 30 years ago if you told someone this, they'd laugh in your face. It's absurd.

VAR should be completely scrapped, or kept only for the most egregious cases. It's a shame the clubs voted to keep it.

Knickers in a twist? Bad day at home mate?

 

[Telsim]

Knickers in a twist? Bad day at home mate?

Don't take it personally. I've just seen this point brought up too many times. And I have a problem with it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’m fine with the offside rule, I mean if the argument is to allow goals if it’s close, where do you draw the line? A toe nail is fine but a whole foot isn’t? A close call is a tough one to take but ultimately so be it, at least it’s not arbitrary

the handball rule is absolutely bullshit though. Taking proximity out is ridiculous as is this expectation that defenders should be running around with their hands behind their backs - something not expected of attackers. Just ridiculous

There’s definitely an enormous fecking irony in the way that awarding so many penalties because a defenders arm is “not in a natural position”, has forced them to hold their arms in the most unnatural position possible.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Don't take it personally. I've just seen this point brought up too many times. And I have a problem with it.

You’re not the only one. It’s a terrible point. Completely fails to grasp why the offside rule exists.

 

[ArtetasHair]

Don't take it personally. I've just seen this point brought up too many times. And I have a problem with it.

Then you can argue it reasonably, instead of telling people to feck off and then asking them not to take it personally.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Then you can argue it reasonably, instead of telling people to feck off and then asking them not to take it personally.

He did argue it reasonably, in the rest of his post. You ignored the same point by me and now you’re ignoring it from him in favour of getting all precious about his tone.

 

[swooshboy]

Yeah, I’m bitter but football simply no longer makes sense as a spectator sports.

Some nerd in a gamer chair gets out his ruler to prove that a Danish player had a toe offside for our goal. Pre-VAR you would have laughed at that nerd but now he’s calling the shots so the goal is chalked off even though nobody would have complained about it back in the day because common sense prevailed back then.

Two minutes later, that same nerd pauses, rewinds and slows down the footage in order to convince himself that there may have been intent when a cross was blasted at an arm from two yards out. Again, no-one in the stadium has spotted anything, and certainly no-one is complaining because they’ve all played football and know that a ball occasionally hits an arm and it’s almost always accidental. But no, the nerd in the gamer chair is in charge.

How can anyone think that this makes sense from a spectator’s perspective anymore? There’s simply no point watching when that is what decides important games.

Feck off with this pretentious crap. The offside rule was created so that players don't hang around behind the defensive line and wait for the ball to be lobbed to them turning the game into a tennis match. It was not created for microscopic "offside" positions that offer no one any advantage. Positions that a human being can't even tell at a glance, so you need some uber-duper special system to measure it. Because a human can't. That's what's actually ridiculous.

VAR is crap that has no place in the game in its current iteration. I was initially for it because I assumed it would be used for... clear and obvious errors, like the Hand of God, or unsportsmanlike conduct that goes unnoticed. Not for measuring whether or not someone's toe was in an offside position. I imagine 30 years ago if you told someone this, they'd laugh in your face. It's absurd.

VAR should be completely scrapped, or kept only for the most egregious cases. It's a shame the clubs voted to keep it.

I completely agree with these points.

So strange watching the game – for the Denmark 'goal', no German player was screaming for offside. For the German penalty, no German player was asking for a handball!

It also annoys me how interpretation is given to handballs etc, but not offsides. Which sounds ridiculous, butIMO when ti comes to offsides, there should be the caveat of whether the olayer gained an advantage of being in an offside position. You see goals ruled out because someone was offside, but then ran back towards the halfway line (past defenders) to actually receive the ball. In such an instance, them being offside was actually a hinderence to them. So why should the goal be ruled out?

In the match tonight, the player being a toe offside gave him no advantage. and had no impact on the goal itself.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

 

[Ekkie Thump]

VAR is fine. You can still celebrate if the goal stands and it's not even needed for every goal.

People saying "VAR sucks" will inevitably complain about the lack of VAR when an illegal goal is scored against them.

Now being a Championship fan I can honestly say that in my experience your second line lacks foundation. Playing without VAR has been a massive improvement - you still feel let down when decisions go against you but then you remember what a load of old bollocks VAR is, accept that refs sometimes feck up and then immediately get on with it.

If anything experiencing VAR in the prem has led us to more greatly appreciate not having it in the Championship.

 

[Telsim]

Then you can argue it reasonably, instead of telling people to feck off and then asking them not to take it personally.

You are right, I may have come out too strongly. I guess I was still salty. I apologise if I have offended you.

I stand by what I said after that, though.

 

[Malons]

Offside should be both a factual and subjective call with two things being considered.

1) the physical, the factual that can be determined by this automated system

2) subjective decision on whether there was any advantage gained by the player who had fallen foul of check 1)

You can determine this by a single, still image. Once the system has given the officials the 'alert' it has identified there's a check to be had, the VAR refs look at a birdseye freeze frame. If with the naked eye the attacking player looks to be level - the goal stands. If you he doesn't - the goal is ruled out.



That way you keep the factual check but you eliminate this fictional advantage of when someone's half a toe is offside. There will still be tight and controversial calls, but part of the problem with VAR is this myth that they can ever be eliminated from the game.

Moreover with VAR I think it separates fans who are invested emotionally in the game and its spirit, and those who distill it down into merely being a series of factual events that happen and any number of checks to ensure the correct outcome of these events occurs, is justified. The 'look up occasionally from phone to watch a few seconds' generation who then wait for Opta data stats to be released before deciding how well the team played.

It's more popular in online chats than down the pub, for example. People who dislike VAR tend to asses performance by watching something than waiting to be told someone won 83% of aerial challenges and covered the 6th most ground of all players the league during 'gameweek 9'.

Not a blanket thing but I do think this industry around stats and numbers and all of that, has spawned a significant number of fans who maybe have a disconnect with the emotional side of the game who will think "Toenail offside is still offside" and will refuse to accept a player could possibly have had a poor game if he got an assist.

 

[Lyng]

 

[Drainy]

It actually feels more sickening to me that the law caused an unjust decision under the natural justice of the game than if a referee cocked something up

 

[Lyng]

It actually feels more sickening to me that the law caused an unjust decision under the natural justice of the game than if a referee cocked something up

Yeah Mark Pougaths point about the rules being made in a way that makes no sense to actual football people really sums up where we have ended up.

 

[antk]

I wonder if the people complaining about interpretations of the handball rule are the same ones wishing for adding subjectivity to the offside rule. Next-up: if goal line technology says the goal hasn't gone in but it looks close enough and the shot was cool, let the ref allow it.

Last night's offside is harsh but it needs to stay binary. You may move the offside line to daylight between the players if you need a more obvious advantage in each and every single situation, but keep any interpretation out (except when assessing whether a player is actually interfering with play).

 

[Spoony]

Feck off with this pretentious crap. The offside rule was created so that players don't hang around behind the defensive line and wait for the ball to be lobbed to them turning the game into a tennis match. It was not created for microscopic "offside" positions that offer no one any advantage. Positions that a human being can't even tell at a glance, so you need some uber-duper special system to measure it. Because a human can't. That's what's actually ridiculous.

VAR is crap that has no place in the game in its current iteration. I was initially for it because I assumed it would be used for... clear and obvious errors, like the Hand of God, or unsportsmanlike conduct that goes unnoticed. Not for measuring whether or not someone's toe was in an offside position. I imagine 30 years ago if you told someone this, they'd laugh in your face. It's absurd.

VAR should be completely scrapped, or kept only for the most egregious cases. It's a shame the clubs voted to keep it.

Yeah it's ruined the entertainment factor of the game. Catching toe nail offsides isn't why this technology was created... it was to eradicate howlers. Now it's also used for deciphering intent as well - there's no way you can categorically say Andersen purposely handled the ball against Germany. Imagine going back to the great goals of the past and looking at the build up play under the eye of a microscope and subsequently finding out they'd be overuled by VAR. Goal line tech is great and glaring decisions that have been missed ought to be stamped out but let's not forget the emotional and entertainment factor of the game. VAR's here to stay under its current guise who knows what other ways they can use it ruin the game in future.

 

[VorZakone]

Now being a Championship fan I can honestly say that in my experience your second line lacks foundation. Playing without VAR has been a massive improvement - you still feel let down when decisions go against you but then you remember what a load of old bollocks VAR is, accept that refs sometimes feck up and then immediately get on with it.

If anything experiencing VAR in the prem has led us to more greatly appreciate not having it in the Championship.

I could never agree with this. VAR is a relatively new invention, we know what it was like to play without VAR. And all I remember is people explicitly calling for VAR because of illegal goals being scored.

 

[BootsyCollins]

I completely agree with these points.

So strange watching the game – for the Denmark 'goal', no German player was screaming for offside. For the German penalty, no German player was asking for a handball!

It also annoys me how interpretation is given to handballs etc, but not offsides. Which sounds ridiculous, butIMO when ti comes to offsides, there should be the caveat of whether the olayer gained an advantage of being in an offside position. You see goals ruled out because someone was offside, but then ran back towards the halfway line (past defenders) to actually receive the ball. In such an instance, them being offside was actually a hinderence to them. So why should the goal be ruled out?

In the match tonight, the player being a toe offside gave him no advantage. and had no impact on the goal itself.

I completely agree with these points.

So strange watching the game – for the Denmark 'goal', no German player was screaming for offside. For the German penalty, no German player was asking for a handball!

It also annoys me how interpretation is given to handballs etc, but not offsides. Which sounds ridiculous, butIMO when ti comes to offsides, there should be the caveat of whether the olayer gained an advantage of being in an offside position. You see goals ruled out because someone was offside, but then ran back towards the halfway line (past defenders) to actually receive the ball. In such an instance, them being offside was actually a hinderence to them. So why should the goal be ruled out?

In the match tonight, the player being a toe offside gave him no advantage. and had no impact on the goal itself.

The bolded, exactly how i feel and talked about with my son this morning. Its just so stupid, the game sucks now.

 

[Drainy]

I wonder if the people complaining about interpretations of the handball rule are the same ones wishing for adding subjectivity to the offside rule. Next-up: if goal line technology says the goal hasn't gone in but it looks close enough and the shot was cool, let the ref allow it.

Last night's offside is harsh but it needs to stay binary. You may move the offside line to daylight between the players if you need a more obvious advantage in each and every single situation, but keep any interpretation out (except when assessing whether a player is actually interfering with play).

I imagine different people have different opinions.

To me, offside is something that is very objective. Any part of the body or equipment that can be used to score a goal so even if the boot is over by it's leather if the computer can determine with 100% accuracy is offside. If the computer has a margin of error the benefit should be with the attacker.

I can understand a cold view on handball for goals that benefit directly from even an accidental touch of the hand, but for a defender to give a penalty away there should be a conscious attempt to gain an unfair advantage by intentionally touching the ball with your hand/ arm or to have intentionally put your arms in an unnatural position.

There are legit reasons for your arms to be extended when challenging for the ball so there has to be a subjective element to the decision to allow for innocent contact. It's not black and white

 

[Lyng]

I could never agree with this. VAR is a relatively new invention, we know what it was like to play without VAR. And all I remember is people explicitly calling for VAR because of illegal goals being scored.

People called for VAR because they didnt know how it would work. Now we know and it is slowly but surely ruining the game.

 

[Jev]

I could never agree with this. VAR is a relatively new invention, we know what it was like to play without VAR. And all I remember is people explicitly calling for VAR because of illegal goals being scored.

People did not call for VAR because of a toenail offside or an accidental handball from one yard out. That’s the point.

 

[VorZakone]

People did not call for VAR because of a toenail offside or an accidental handball from one yard out. That’s the point.

Offside is offside. It is what it is. A line must be drawn somewhere. Better stay behind that line.

As for accidental handballs and such, I would have been fine with Lukaku's goal standing when it was disallowed because of Openda's handball.

So sure, some moments are to be criticized but why overcorrect and say VAR must be abolished?

 

[VorZakone]

People called for VAR because they didnt know how it would work. Now we know and it is slowly but surely ruining the game.

How is it 'ruining" the game? It doesn't annoy me at all. I'm glad that teams aren't conceding illegal goals.

 

[Ainu]

I’m fine with the offside rule, I mean if the argument is to allow goals if it’s close, where do you draw the line? A toe nail is fine but a whole foot isn’t? A close call is a tough one to take but ultimately so be it, at least it’s not arbitrary

the handball rule is absolutely bullshit though. Taking proximity out is ridiculous as is this expectation that defenders should be running around with their hands behind their backs - something not expected of attackers. Just ridiculous

Instead of a line they could just increase the margin on it. Draw a significantly thicker line. In that case, a toe nail wouldn't be off, but a whole foot would, and it's still not arbitrary. Has the additional benefit of eliminating any potential inaccuracies of the technology.

 

[duffer]

The new, faster offside tech is fantastic.

The handball decision yesterday was an abomination but that wasn't VAR or the refs fault, the rule needs to be changed.

 

[Lyng]

How is it 'ruining" the game? It doesn't annoy me at all. I'm glad that teams aren't conceding illegal goals.

Feck me. If that is not happening why are there countless discussions about VAR and decisions after every game.

 

[VorZakone]

Feck me. If that is not happening why are there countless discussions about VAR and decisions after every game.

Because there is now a lot more focus on the technicalities of football rules.

And football fans are biased, they are frustrated when their team's goal doesn't stand.

And another reason because of how long certain decisions take.

 

[Lyng]

Because there is now a lot more focus on the technicalities of football rules.

And football fans are biased, they are frustrated when their team's goal doesn't stand.

And another reason because of how long certain decisions take.

So no decisions are wrong anymore then?

 

[Jev]

Offside is offside. It is what it is. A line must be drawn somewhere. Better stay behind that line.

As for accidental handballs and such, I would have been fine with Lukaku's goal standing when it was disallowed because of Openda's handball.

So sure, some moments are to be criticized but why overcorrect and say VAR must be abolished?

Because it has made the game worse. It’s made the game infinitely worse from a spectator’s point of view. And if you look at those decisions yesterday and think the final result is more fair because some guy in a gamer chair paused, slowed and rewinded the replay long enough to spot a toenail offside that gave the attacking player no advantage whatsover, and to convince himself that there was intent when a ball was blasted at an arm from one yard out, you are living in a technocratic parallel universe that should be (but evidently, sadly, isn’t) incompatible with spectator sports.

 

[VorZakone]

So no decisions are wrong anymore then?

I'm sure VAR makes mistakes.

But why overcorrect and argue that it must be gone? Why not just call for improvements to VAR? Not necessarily addressing you personally but in general.

 

[Lyng]

I'm sure VAR makes mistakes.

But why overcorrect and argue that it must be gone? Why not just call for improvements to VAR? Not necessarily addressing you personally but in general.

This was originally how I felt, but honestly the more they have tinkered with it the worse it seems to get.

 

[VorZakone]

Because it has made the game worse. It’s made the game infinitely worse from a spectator’s point of view. And if you look at those decisions yesterday and think the final result is more fair because some guy in a gamer chair paused, slowed and rewinded the replay long enough to spot a toenail offside that gave the attacking player no advantage whatsover, and to convince himself that there was intent when a ball was blasted at an arm from one yard out, you are living in a technocratic parallel universe that should be (but evidently, sadly, isn’t) incompatible with spectator sports.

It hasn't made the game worse for me and I'm a spectator. What did make the game worse for me was seeing a perfectly legal England goal in 2010 being disallowed against Germany. Today that goal would have counted.

Offside is offside, a line must be drawn somewhere. We can argue about error margins and thickness of the line, that's fair. But why overcorrect and argue for abolishing VAR instead of calling for improvements?

And handball is handball. Don't blame VAR, blame the rules.

 

[ArtetasHair]

He did argue it reasonably, in the rest of his post. You ignored the same point by me and now you’re ignoring it from him in favour of getting all precious about his tone.

Ofcourse if people are being told to feck off I don't really care or read his post.

 

[Jev]

It hasn't made the game worse for me and I'm a spectator. What did make the game worse for me was seeing a perfectly legal England goal in 2010 being disallowed against Germany. Today that goal would have counted.

Which was fixed years ago by technology that has nothing to do with VAR and has never led to any controversy.

 

[Posh Red]

Because there is now a lot more focus on the technicalities of football rules.

And football fans are biased, they are frustrated when their team's goal doesn't stand.

And another reason because of how long certain decisions take.

Using VAR will always lead to this though. It means decisions will now always be scrutinised right down to very small, inconsequential actions. I think it was inevitable that VAR would lead to a less enjoyable game, and was never in favour of it for this reason. It’s also killed the most enjoyable part of football, which is the goal celebration.

You can say that we can still celebrate ‘legal’ goals, or that we can still celebrate once decisions are confirmed, but none of that comes anywhere close to the immediate sensation of euphoria when a goal is scored. That feeling is now gone from football, for me at least.

 

[antk]

I wouldn't choose the euphoria of celebrating Maradona's or Henry's handball over making sure the correct decision is reached much more often. I'd rather have contentious decisions than egregious errors. It makes for a better sport, and if the entertainment suffers for some so be it.

In any case I believe with around ten more years of improving the tech (like making automated offside detection standard across all leagues and competitions) and refining the rules (handballs, maybe offside definition), people will get used to it.