The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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A slightly outdated (2012) attempt:

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On a side note... am I the only maniac that who would be tempted by the idea of going without insurance?

Nope millions do it...no such thing as pulling a sickie...ever
 
Because people are too lazy to educate themselves.

A 2014 Kizer study found...

http://kff.org/health-costs/report/2014-employer-health-benefits-survey/

Say you make $100,000 a year combined as a family, that's putting you spending nearly half your income on taxes and healthcare.

The argument against universal healthcare using "higher taxes" becomes void imo when you actually look at the numbers.

The tax rate at married filing jointly with a $100,000 income is "$10,367.50 plus 25% of the amount over $75,300".

I'm curious to know what tax rates are in your countries so I can compare the tax payment + insurance payment to what you're getting.

I do not think that is so easy to compare - because even for your tax dollars you get a different package in every country.

Take Germany. 100.000 Dollar means 93,866 EUR

Christian Family with one income and 2 kids

Gross income 93,866 EUR
Pension Insurance 7,124.76 €
Unemployment Insurance 1,143.00 €
Nursing Care Insurance 665.52 €
Health Insurance 4,384.80
(Sum all Social Insurances: 13,318.08 €)
Income Tax 18,646.00 €
Solidarity Tax 744.37 €
Church Tax 1,082.72 €
(Sum all Taxes: 20,473.09 €)

Net income 60.074,83 €

A family with two kids gets an additional Kindergeld of 192 € per kid per month - that makes an additional 4,608,- €/year.

As there is no equivalent for this in the US it would add up to the net income 64,683 EUR - or 68904 USD.

Leaving church will cut it by another 1080 EUR - there is other means to lower your tax, too, as e.g. if your way to work exceeds about 15 km per day (oneway) - but that gets to detailed.

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But even a comparison like this does not include the benefits you have in the country like e.g. free university etc. or does not tell anything about the coverage of the social insurances. Here in Germany nobody saves money for its kids college or university. The universities are free and only the living costs of the kid have to be paid - if the parents do not have enough income there is BAFÖG that is partly credit to help.
 
I do not think that is so easy to compare - because even for your tax dollars you get a different package in every country.
Yes, it's hard to give like for like because we get so little in return for our tax dollar compared to what you'd get in Germany.

You definitely come out on the good end imo, and the things you included are the exact things that Republicans NEVER show when speaking about higher taxes in European countries.

We're never given the full picture by the right.
 
15 words -
C60JuNDXUAAVlCE.jpg


White Nationalist/Neo Nazi slogans

14 words -
"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

14 words -
"Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."

Hitler's 88 words -
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. Every thought and every idea, every doctrine and all knowledge, must serve this purpose. And everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility
 
A mate of mine went to the states two years ago and stepped on some kind of nasty sea creature (a sting ray or something) and got stung under his foot. Took a taxi to the hospital, removed the stinger and closed the wound with a couple of stitches. In and out in a couple of hours, not a big deal

There was some problem with his insurance though (he had travel insurance, but the hospital did not want it or some shite) and the hospital bill was something like 20,000$. His insurance covered it in the end though, but that's an obscene amount of money for something like that.

And as someone else said, for us Europeans it's unfathomable how the Americans view healthcare as a privilege and not a right. Owning a gun on the other hand is a right :rolleyes:

The ironic thing is though, the US spends A LOT on healthcare in general, so it's not just an unfair system, it's also woefully ineffective.

OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg

I am on the record to criticize the US healthcare system here, so it is just fair to add something to balance these graphics about prices: The US health-care sector is by far the most innovative one in the world and other countries benefit from this, while US consumers have to pay for a disproportionately high share of the costs.
 
I am on the record to criticize the US healthcare system here, so it is just fair to add something to balance these graphics about prices: The US health-care sector is by far the most innovative one in the world and other countries benefit from this, while US consumers have to pay for a disproportionately high share of the costs.

I wonder what percentage of that graph is litigation though.
 
I still have one and often use it. One of the iconic camera's in photography history.



Canon 85mm L is arguably the best portrait lens ever made. perfect for microwave reconnaissance photography!
agreed on both points. Still have my 5d even after I had to do a shutter change. legend camera.
 
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/chrisedwards/2017/03/14/the-threat-from-federal-debt-n2298445

The Threat from Federal Debt

Donald Trump railed against rising government debt on the campaign trail, but we don’t know yet how he will tackle the problem as president. The debt lurks behind many issues on his plate, including Obamacare repeal, tax reform, defense spending, the border wall, and his upcoming budget. A vote on the statutory debt limit is also coming up.

Trump faces tough choices because President Barack Obama left him with a fiscal mess. A river of red ink under President George W. Bush turned into a torrent under Obama. Federal debt held by the public soared from $5.8 trillion in 2008 to $14.2 trillion in 2016. As a share of gross domestic product (GDP), the debt almost doubled from 39 percent to 77 percent.

Today’s debt-to-GDP ratio is the second highest in U.S. history, and the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) expects it to keep on growing, as shown in the chart. Only the debt load during World War II was higher.

d from 106 percent of GDP in 1946 to just 56 percent in 1955. You might assume that frugal budgeting by centrist Presidents Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower diffused the debt bomb, but that was not the case.

Economists Joshua Aizenman and Nancy Marion found that about four-fifths of that post-WWII drop was due to inflation. By running inflation, the government reduced the real value of outstanding debt and imposed losses on creditors. The government was able to swindle creditors because the average maturity of its debt at the time was a lengthy nine years.

As for frugality, there wasn’t any. The government ran deficits in six of the ten years from 1946-1955. On domestic programs, Truman and Eisenhower were big spenders. We haven’t had an extended period of frugal governance since President Calvin Coolidge was in the White House in the 1920s.

From 1791 to 1929, the government balanced its budget 68 percent of the years, which is why debt fell after the wars in that period. But from 1930 to 2017, the government has balanced its budget just 15 percent of the years, which is why we are in such a fiscal pickle today.

Today’s high debt is much scarier than the WWII debt for a number of reasons. First, the government won’t be able to make the debt disappear with inflation so easily this time, even if that were a good idea. The average maturity of Treasury debt today is much shorter than it was after WWII.

Second, the underlying cause of today’s high debt is not a one-time crisis like a war. Instead, it is a chronic pattern of failure by politicians to control spending growth across many programs. Federal politicians have the legal ability to borrow and spend without limit, and they have proceeded to abuse the hell out of that privilege.

Finally, the official outlook for debt in the chart is troubling enough, but it is optimistic if the future is like the past. The outlook assumes that discretionary budget caps will hold, but Congress has broken them repeatedly in the past. It includes only current programs and projects, not possible new ones like border walls or new wars. And the outlook does not include another major recession, which would sharply cut revenues and boost spending.

No one can predict the future, but if policymakers were prudent they would work to reduce deficits and debt right now when the economy is growing. But we’ve been running half trillion dollar deficits in recent years, even though we are in the seventh year of expansion.

In a 1932 radio address, Franklin Roosevelt said, “Let us have the courage to stop borrowing to meet continuing deficits. Stop the deficits … Any government, like any family, can for a year spend a little more than it earns. But you and I know that a continuation of that habit means the poorhouse.”

Unfortunately, that exhortation turned out to be just campaign rhetoric, and the era of chronic deficit spending had begun. Today, we really will be headed for the poorhouse unless we find more politicians with the courage to cut.
 
Yes, it's hard to give like for like because we get so little in return for our tax dollar compared to what you'd get in Germany.

You definitely come out on the good end imo, and the things you included are the exact things that Republicans NEVER show when speaking about higher taxes in European countries.

We're never given the full picture by the right.

Taxes being higher in Europe than in U.S is just a myth. If you take all the different taxes that we pay here and add it up, then we are paying much, much more in taxes than in Europe. But you're right, we are getting much less back from the government than in Europe. As I mentioned in another post, the politicians have brainwashed people to such an extent that when it comes to providing for the people, they use the usual line that they don't want to burden the people with additional taxes.
 
Taxes being higher in Europe than in U.S is just a myth. If you take all the different taxes that we pay here and add it up, then we are paying much, much more in taxes than in Europe. But you're right, we are getting much less back from the government than in Europe. As I mentioned in another post, the politicians have brainwashed people to such an extent that when it comes to providing for the people, they use the usual line that they don't want to burden the people with additional taxes.
do you have any data to support that claim?
 
do you have any data to support that claim?
I've tried to do this a few times myself. Lots of different taxes in the USA. Fed, state, county, city are obvious ones. Then start to add ss, Medicare, Medicaid, school tax, house tax, municipal tax, HOA fees (if they include things like snow removal), fees (aka taxes) on phones/TV/internet for things like 911.

Now start to consider the cost of things covered in Europe like healthcare and education.

Difficult analysis!
 
Am I the only one who realized that the Trump wiretapping claim was specifically to take the heat off Jeff Sessions? It seems like we've completely forgotten that he lied under oath.
 
I am on the record to criticize the US healthcare system here, so it is just fair to add something to balance these graphics about prices: The US health-care sector is by far the most innovative one in the world and other countries benefit from this, while US consumers have to pay for a disproportionately high share of the costs.

There are enough people and money in the system to subsidize or even spread the cost enough so that it doesn't be a burden on the taxpayer. Congress can do this if they wanted to along with getting the states to buy in. The problem in America is that everything must be about profit first.
 
A mate of mine went to the states two years ago and stepped on some kind of nasty sea creature (a sting ray or something) and got stung under his foot. Took a taxi to the hospital, removed the stinger and closed the wound with a couple of stitches. In and out in a couple of hours, not a big deal

There was some problem with his insurance though (he had travel insurance, but the hospital did not want it or some shite) and the hospital bill was something like 20,000$. His insurance covered it in the end though, but that's an obscene amount of money for something like that.

And as someone else said, for us Europeans it's unfathomable how the Americans view healthcare as a privilege and not a right. Owning a gun on the other hand is a right :rolleyes:

The ironic thing is though, the US spends A LOT on healthcare in general, so it's not just an unfair system, it's also woefully ineffective.

OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg

My son was born over there via C section. $37k it was
 
Am I the only one who realized that the Trump wiretapping claim was specifically to take the heat off Jeff Sessions? It seems like we've completely forgotten that he lied under oath.

KAC's covert microwaves was designed to take attention away from Trumpdontcare
 
They played it on morning Joe earlier. But this was all known wasn't it? From months ago.

It was known but the audio was just released. Once the healthcare bill fails, Drumpf being the irresponsible coward that he is, will no doubt attempt to deflect the blame by blaming the GOPs in Congress, by way of Bannon's dirty tricks.
 
It was known but the audio was just released. Once the healthcare bill fails, Drumpf being the irresponsible coward that he is, will no doubt attempt to deflect the blame by blaming the GOPs in Congress, by way of Bannon's dirty tricks.

Which is great news for the DNC. The more Trump makes the GOP Congress members look like backstabbing assholes who don't care about the people, the more likely he is to lose his majority advantage.
 
There are enough people and money in the system to subsidize or even spread the cost enough so that it doesn't be a burden on the taxpayer. Congress can do this if they wanted to along with getting the states to buy in. The problem in America is that everything must be about profit first.

So we should run the federal budget on the basis of "there's enough", and not the math?

Of course its a burden to the taxpayer. I'm not against expansion of healthcare rights and spend, or insurance in place of. But its disingenuous to say it won't be a burden on the taxpayer.
 
I've tried to do this a few times myself. Lots of different taxes in the USA. Fed, state, county, city are obvious ones. Then start to add ss, Medicare, Medicaid, school tax, house tax, municipal tax, HOA fees (if they include things like snow removal), fees (aka taxes) on phones/TV/internet for things like 911.

Now start to consider the cost of things covered in Europe like healthcare and education.

Difficult analysis!

Even if you go into details it is not easy to compare it as a whole. It all depends a lot on you family situation and yes, how wealthy you are. In my example I just took the wage Carolina Red named - plus the information that it is a "family with kids".

Somebody that is single and very high earner who does not care about the others probably lives on a higher standard in the US than in Europe.

As e.g. Health Insurance in Germany is based on your income and includes coverage for the dependants the 4,384.80 EUR on yearly payment with that 100,000 USD gross wage are the same for the 25 year old healthy guy without wife and kids as for the guy with wife and kids with health issues. The 25 year old can choose to change into a private insurance as he earns more than 57,000 gross income - but he cannot return later into the public insurance when he might be married with kids and will have to insure them on the private market, too - and usually his insurance will rise significantly with his age even if there is some rules that demand from the insurance industry to implement savings for age into the policies. I know a lot of older people that have changed into the private insurance including my parents and the premiums now are a big burden for them now, too - but usually it is people with some wealth.
A similar health coverage for that 25 year old can be bought for about 2000 to 2500 EUR a year for his part of the insurance (the employer pays the other half) in the German private health insurance market.

The whole topic - and comparing the situations in different countries - is a very interesting one. Maybe it would be something for a different thread in which we could compare the situations better with different wage categories and family situations. For Germany there is different gross-net-calculators in the internet that you can feed with different numbers.

Same with the benefits you have in the different countries.

But I think that what really is different is the priorities, the "consciousness" and awareness about different topics - let it be socially, with the environment, minorities, other religions etc. that you have in the different countries. And that already differs from country to country in Europe.
 
So we should run the federal budget on the basis of "there's enough", and not the math?

Of course its a burden to the taxpayer. I'm not against expansion of healthcare rights and spend, or insurance in place of. But its disingenuous to say it won't be a burden on the taxpayer.

I never meant that...maybe I didn't put my point across well. I know there are numbers and math involved in providing healthcare. I know not everyone is going to get the same quality care regardless age, gender and the state they live in. What I meant was that there is more than enough brains in Congress to get this done. At the end of the day, your tax money should be providing quality service to you the taxpayer and NOT for corporate welfare, tax breaks for people who don't need it and the military. No one said providing healthcare for Americans would be easy or cheap but Congress isn't doing enough to provide its citizens with value for their tax dollar. What Ryan and his ilk want is to leave healthcare COMPLETELY in the hands of corporations and let the tax payer fund their profits, bonuses and tax breaks.
 
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