The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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unchanged_lineup said:
To be fair to Sammsky, he's been at actual protests in England, Scotland and the US :D
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I know - that's why I brought it up. If he was being challenged on that front then it'd be an appropriate response. The reality is he wasn't being challenged on anything to begin with, and when he got involved in the discussion it had nothing to do with active forms of protest and everything to do with things people say on an internet forum. I think it's fair to say they're quite seperate things.
 
Brwned said:
I know - that's why I brought it up. If he was being challenged on that front then it'd be an appropriate response. The reality is he wasn't being challenged on anything to begin with, and when he got involved in the discussion it had nothing to do with active forms of protest and everything to do with things people say on an internet forum. I think it's fair to say they're quite seperate things.
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Grand, I'm not going to get involved further...
 
Brwned said:
Do you really think channeling that energy onto a football forum, made up primarily of Irish and British folk, is an effective way to protect these liberties we naively take for granted? If you were being challenged on the purpose of protesting among large groups across the world over and over again, that kind of response would make sense. This discussion is about something entirely different and that kind of false equivalence only confuses the discussion. I suppose we can't let logic get in the way of assumptions and unsubstantiated insults though - not in this thread. It's your very own homage to Trump.
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This thread is specifically about Trump's Presidency, it happens be hosted on a football forum. Many football fans are also very capable of deeply intelligent political opinions. ;)

We are going around in circles. I've made my point in previous posts and will leave it there.
 
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People should expect a liberal narrative out of a football forum based in the North.

I think people have been more than accommodating in this thread. The only people that have been hounded out of this thread have rightly deserved it for lacking basic moral standards. There was that anarchist who said he loved chaos and then that Cypriot who was a WUM by his own admission.

I think it's important we remain shocked and appalled at things like the little lies, the factual inaccuracies and the media blackout etc. It's also important we voice those concerns, this thread being one place to do that. I'm not outraged for the sake of it...If we take these on the chin then we risk becoming desensitised to the bigger and more dangerous lies later down the line. It's not unreasonable to expect that will happen.

On a tangent...I'm tired of people outside of this forum calling me precious over this subject because I take an interest all year round. So many people I know are normally indifferent on politics but find themselves rooting for Trump or Brexit because they see Liberals 'carrying on' when they are long since bored of the result. This frustrates me greatly.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Trump's is a meta presidency, constantly interpreted and dissected by his own spokespeople :lol:
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My neighbour is a retired professor of politics from Cambridge university, deeply knowledgable of politics all around the world.

He is now in his late 70's and tell's me he has never encountered anything like Trump in his life! And he says that 'innovation' is not a good thing!
 
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Raoul said:
I tend to agree. Campaigns eat up a lot of money and it would be sheer lunacy for the Dems to surrender one of their funding streams to the where the GOP have any advantage.
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Agreed. I'd expect some hysteric criticism of that from the Bernie crowd though - hope it doesn't get too overplayed.

As long as Citizens United is attacked the next chance the Dems get. That would surely be the time to protest - not now, where there's zero chance of any change across both parties.
 
Drifter said:
Trumps jokes at the dinner with Hillary went down like a lead balloon. Can understand why he would give this a miss
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Is that the speech when he said "everyone fawned over Michelle's speeches and then Melania does exactly the same speeches and everyone hated them". Because even I can admit that was really funny.
 
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n the late 1950s, it was obvious that tensions between Dixiecrats and the rest of the party were coming to a head. And if the internecine schism between base and investors could not turn the party leftwards then, when accompanied by the civil rights revolution, there’s little reason to believe it will do so today, in our far drearier historical moment.
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@Ubik @InfiniteBoredom

Quality history lesson in Jacobin.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/02/...t-civil-rights-mcgovern-meany-rustin-sanders/
 
sammsky1 said:
I have no idea about your agenda or political views, but I daresay you won't be so laxadaisal when one of Trump's policies deeply affects you or your family. I'm sure at that stage you'll have plenty of energy repeating the same outrage. Same goes to @Brwned

Do you have any idea or empathy on how long it took for women or black people to get equal rights in USA, how long it took India to rid themselves of British colonial rule or for Mandela to lead black south Africans out of apartheid? These groups did so because a deep commitment and repetition to a cause. We're are only one month into a potential fascist movement and you guys are already bored.

I wont assume you're part of the internet millennial generation, but sadly so many young people have no comprehension on what true subjugation can look like and just how hard it is to remove once it gains power. Perhaps you have no idea how lucky you are to enjoy the freedoms that you have today.
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You're right, you don't know anything about me, so either check some of my posting history on this forum, or if you're understandably not arsed, leave your insinuations about me at the door and stick to addressing my posts directly.
 
Brwned said:
I completely take your point that it's much easier to complain than it is to add genuine value to the discussion, but surely you can understand that the tone of the discussion and the atmosphere it generates plays a fundamental role in the inclusiveness of it? It doesn't feel very welcoming to people who don't want to join in the back-slapping. Something about it just feels a bit cliquey. Apologies if that's vague or seems pointlessly confrontational, but I am trying to make a genuine point which I can't quite seem to articulate fully.

Everyone acknowledges that the thread isn't welcoming to Trump supporters, and most people acknowledge that it's a bit of a shame that "the other side" don't have a real voice in here, but what I think is overlooked is that there are many people that are concerned about Trump or are full-on anti-Trump that don't want to get involved in the discussion either for very similar reasons.
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Thing is, it's difficult to spot from the inside when those kind of perceived groupings appear. Most of the people posting regularly in this thread have been following closely for a couple of years now, when Donald Trump's candidacy was a running joke that would soon be heading off a cliff. As with anything on the Caf, running jokes will tend to establish themselves and die hard, and being as it is a forum when people can get wound up over football, it's to be expected that the politics of the most powerful country on the planet attracts strong opinions. We'd dearly like to start taking Trump completely seriously and ease off the cheap jokes, but he hasn't actually changed at all in character or opinion from that absurdity that launched his candidacy with racist lies nearly two years ago. Sometimes to deal with such abhorrence you need the laughs now and then.

It's a shame if it does appear hard to get involved for people that don't post as much, I really doubt it's the intention of any regular poster here, many of whom basically just follow this stuff more closely than other people that they know do, and the CE of the Caf has tons of knowledgeable posters that you know can add stuff of interest so it becomes a go-to place to talk about it. I know there can tend to be the odd dog-pile when unfamiliar opinions occur, but bear in mind that in the case of two Trump supporters who faced that treatment, one turned out to be a pretty nasty white supremacist, and the other was either a conspiracy nut or a troll. From my experience, when someone posts interesting stuff in good faith then it'll be engaged with properly, regardless of how often that person is involved.

At any rate, I know I can tend towards dickishness when I'm really into a discussion so always feel free to tell me I'm doing so and I'll try to self-correct :lol:
 
ThierryHenry said:
That's guy's hilarious. :lol:

"Then they came for the potheads—and there was no one left to speak for me."
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The whole thing is genuinely infuriating though. Someone who supports Trump, and an extremely conservative party...but then reneges his support once he realises a conservative party don't like weed. fecking hell.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
On the subject of that, @Brwned, I think the likes of @berbatrick, @PedroMendez and @2cents providing a more "neutral" viewpoint has helped the thread at various points.

The return of @Neutral has also been much needed in the CE. This is the most I've enjoyed reading the CE, tbh, I only wish we had a regular right winger like @Team Brian GB like a few years ago.
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The quality of UK discussions definitely went downhill after @Team Brian GB, and to a lesser extent, Alastair left the forum. The attacks Nick receives go way too far as well. A few more Tories would be very welcome, but I can appreciate Brwned's point - what motivation would they have to get involved?

Note that this ignores the loonies on both sides of the debate. The Brexit thread has been completely unreadable for the last six months. The other politics threads are clearly better than that, and excellent in the critical periods. For a Brit, I learned so much more from following the US election thread on here than any other single site I used in 2016.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
On the subject of that, @Brwned, I think the likes of @berbatrick, @PedroMendez and @2cents providing a more "neutral" viewpoint has helped the thread at various points.

The return of @Neutral has also been much needed in the CE. This is the most I've enjoyed reading the CE, tbh, I only wish we had a regular right winger like @Team Brian GB like a few years ago.
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I'm not sure any of us there that you've mentioned would consider ourselves 'neutral', I think we've all been clear that we think Trump is a potential disaster. Speaking for myself, I just prefer more sober discussions which avoid the childish insults and the "OMG look what he's done now!" type posts, especially as in this case it appears to me that part of Trump's strategy is to provoke that level of discourse. But maybe that's just the culture of this thread that I'll have to live with.

For me, I oppose some of Trump's stated proposals, I can (or could if I was American) live with many more, and a couple I can think of I would actually support. But I think he is the wrong man to execute any of it, due both to his own character and temperament and to the implicit agendas underlying some of his policies. I actually think he might end up discrediting the one or two good ideas he has for a long time, just by being who he is. Right now I'm mostly interested in seeing how he balances the outsiders in the administration with the establishment figures, it's quite fascinating to see how it's going to play out.

Ubik said:
Thing is, it's difficult to spot from the inside when those kind of perceived groupings appear. Most of the people posting regularly in this thread have been following closely for a couple of years now, when Donald Trump's candidacy was a running joke that would soon be heading off a cliff. As with anything on the Caf, running jokes will tend to establish themselves and die hard, and being as it is a forum when people can get wound up over football, it's to be expected that the politics of the most powerful country on the planet attracts strong opinions. We'd dearly like to start taking Trump completely seriously and ease off the cheap jokes, but he hasn't actually changed at all in character or opinion from that absurdity that launched his candidacy with racist lies nearly two years ago. Sometimes to deal with such abhorrence you need the laughs now and then.

It's a shame if it does appear hard to get involved for people that don't post as much, I really doubt it's the intention of any regular poster here, many of whom basically just follow this stuff more closely than other people that they know do, and the CE of the Caf has tons of knowledgeable posters that you know can add stuff of interest so it becomes a go-to place to talk about it. I know there can tend to be the odd dog-pile when unfamiliar opinions occur, but bear in mind that in the case of two Trump supporters who faced that treatment, one turned out to be a pretty nasty white supremacist, and the other was either a conspiracy nut or a troll. From my experience, when someone posts interesting stuff in good faith then it'll be engaged with properly, regardless of how often that person is involved.

At any rate, I know I can tend towards dickishness when I'm really into a discussion so always feel free to tell me I'm doing so and I'll try to self-correct :lol:
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For me it's more the case that, as someone with not a great knowledge of American domestic politics, I'm mostly trawling through this thread to learn stuff (the election thread was actually great for that), but it can be hard to wade through the more sensational stuff at times, and of course there is always the distinct feeling that I'm only experiencing one side of American political culture - that's not necessarily the fault of the Cafe though and if I cared enough about it I might head somewhere else for it.
 
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Neutral said:
This is a pretty good dig :lol:

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Think that might be the one mildly funny thing he's ever tweeted. Funny as in making a good joke, as opposed to a "lol he's going to nuke us all because he's insane" sort of way.
 
ThierryHenry said:
The quality of UK discussions definitely went downhill after @Team Brian GB, and to a lesser extent, Alastair left the forum. The attacks Nick receives go way too far as well. A few more Tories would be very welcome, but I can appreciate Brwned's point - what motivation would they have to get involved?
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They might have an opinion that they weren't too chicken shit to stand up for and try to explain?
 
Cheesy said:
Think that might be the one mildly funny thing he's ever tweeted. Funny as in making a good joke, as opposed to a "lol he's going to nuke us all because he's insane" sort of way.
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Probably the only piece of political shenanigan he's ever held fast to, repeatedly avoiding confrontation with Sanders or his supporters, while sometimes portraying himself as their allies against the 'corrupt' Democratic establishment.
 
berbatrick said:
@Ubik @InfiniteBoredom

Quality history lesson in Jacobin.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/02/...t-civil-rights-mcgovern-meany-rustin-sanders/
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I will read this soon, I promise. I have a solid 3 or 4 of your Jacobin links "saved for later" in my tabs that I really should attack soon!

Another thing I just saw which raises a fair point



I imagine there's no shortage of Democrats in Maryland to run, but you'd think that would've been the natural step for him to make rather than chairing the DNC. Just seems like a lot of misplaced effort.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
On the subject of that, @Brwned, I think the likes of @berbatrick, @PedroMendez and @2cents providing a more "neutral" viewpoint has helped the thread at various points.

The return of @Neutral has also been much needed in the CE. This is the most I've enjoyed reading the CE, tbh, I only wish we had a regular right winger like @Team Brian GB like a few years ago.
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I'd echo much of what 2cents said. I am certainly not neutral, but neutrality isnt necessary (possible?) in political discussions. It is fine, when people come to different conclusions based on the ideas they perceive to be true.

It is also not a problem that we are almost unanimously against Trump. The problem is the level of the discussion; most posts just dont have any content. It is just outrage and partisan slur. That is okay for a while, but becomes extremely boring after 500 pages.

Personally I enjoy discussing politics a lot, because I read a lot of the political primary sources anyway (including laws, regulation, speeches and academic papers). It is probably just not the best time for that, because emotions still define the discussion.
 
Ubik said:


I imagine there's no shortage of Democrats in Maryland to run, but you'd think that would've been the natural step for him to make rather than chairing the DNC. Just seems like a lot of misplaced effort.
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Reading the replies to that tweet it seems Hogan enjoys very high numbers, understandable if he doesn't fancy the challenge.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Reading the replies to that tweet it seems Hogan enjoys very high numbers, understandable if he doesn't fancy the challenge.
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Ah wow, over 70%, that is pretty intimidating. Elections being held in non-Presidential years won't help either.
 
Ady87 said:
Funny how many of us get accused of circle jerking and back slapping in here, then someone right leaning calls it out and what happens? A load of circle jerking and back slapping.
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Is that a particularly surprising attitude from a movement that invokes free speech in it's right to offend PC 'snowflake' culture, but cries oppression or bullying (or simply 'fake') whenever an intolerant or ignorant opinion is called out as such?
 
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The difference between this thread and other contentious ones - the various Rooney ones, for example - is that, ordinarily, there's common agreement about the merits of those who are discussed; but, in Trump's case, it's patently obvious that he's unfit to serve. People are naturally exasperated by this, and so welcome others who share their view. Despite the Wars of the Roonatics and the Hair-etics, there's united agreement about Wayne's undoubted 'historical' excellence; Trump doesn't even have that.
 
SteveJ said:
The difference between this thread and other contentious ones - the various Rooney ones, for example - is that, ordinarily, there's common agreement about the merits of those who are discussed; but, in Trump's case, it's patently obvious that he's unfit to serve. People are naturally exasperated by this, and so welcome others who share their view. Despite the Wars of the Roonatics and the Hair-etics, there's united agreement about Wayne's undoubted 'historical' excellence; Trump doesn't even have that.
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And to be fair it's not as if we're just subjecting those who support Trump to ridicule for the sake of it: it's that some of the posters who support him are making up absurd arguments which are worthy of ridicule. McUnited coming into the thread and making some ridiculous assertion about all of us without presenting a legitimate defence of his own view does nothing to further the discussion.

For the most part the chat here has been alright...people are regularly posting news updates whenever something relevant happens, for example, and just from following this (and the previous election thread) my knowledge on American politics has increased tenfold in the past couple of years.
 
Brwned said:
You've misunderstood. As far as I can tell Trump's a buffon, a lunatic and him being in such a powerful position presents a very real threat to American democratic institutions and society more generally. I despair at the fact so many people thought he was in any way capable of taking on such a responsibility and it saddens me even more that people continue to blindly defend plainly absurd decisions on his part. It's comforting to find I'm on the same page as the majority of people on here. I just feel like that sentiment gets hammered over and over and over again and thoughtful discussion can often take a back seat. After a while it adds clutter rather than value, in my view.
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I would agree to that if the posters in this thread would just keep on repeating the same things over and over again, but the problem with this topic is simple: Trump is a "gift" that keeps on giving.

Not a single day goes by where he does not prove how much he is unfit to be a political leader, let alone one of the worlds super power: insulting the press, openly threatening other countries and international corporations, damaging the reputation of his own country´s institutions. The list goes on. Every two or three days new plans for policies come to light which are deeply troubling not only for the American people but also the whole world.

What are we supposed to do with this influx of information? Ignore it? Sugercoat it?

People are welcome to argue in favour of this man on here. For a meaningful discussion there would be a need of an exchange of arguments, though.

Trump´s whole campaign and also presidency is not build on arguments, though. It has no substance, it is all about the message, a simple one at that with little to no explanation how to realise it. His downright clumsy executive orders are proof of that. The man is in power because they have been enough people desperate enough to cry for change and because the inability of the Democrats to build a common ground and motivate people to vote.
 
Wumminator said:
I'm sorry @Brwned but that post is a load of rubbish.

This thread is dominated by one main theme because that is the way that the majority of intelligent and well spoken individuals think. Academics are under attack. The free press is under attack. The very ideals that we want to preserve as a democratic and fair country are under attack.

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This thread is dominated by the left wing. That's fine

But often my problem is that many of you consider yourselves more intelligent and better in every way than the right. There is no balance at all...

Opinions like this also most likely only strengthen trump supporters.

Anyway It has become ridiculous.

Rory McElroy played golf with trump, and he is being labelled a facist ffs. Does nobody see how stupid both fecking sides have become?
 
Raoul said:
I'm amazed anyone is disappointed this thread is weak on policy discussions, since Trump himself is completely devoid of any details. Once Trump comes out with specifics there will be a lot of deconstructing them.
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Exactly. "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh**"

When he gives us actual policy, I'll love discussing it.
 
Randall Flagg said:
This thread is dominated by the left wing. That's fine

But often my problem is that many of you consider yourselves more intelligent and better in every way than the right. There is no balance at all...

Opinions like this also most likely only strengthen trump supporters.

Anyway It has become ridiculous.

Rory McElroy played golf with trump, and he is being labelled a facist ffs. Does nobody see how stupid both fecking sides have become?
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It's only dominated by the left-wing if you view anything that isn't Trump as being left-wing. @Raoul supported Hilary but considered Rubio at one point. He's probably somewhere around the centre, as are most people who were big supporters of Hilary. @MTF is heavily critical of Trump but is more small government on economic matters. I'm pretty sure @MrMarcello isn't overly left-wing either, but I could be wrong.

At this point the argument that we're all somehow emboldening Trump supporters is a weak cop-out. We have to engage but anyone who determines their vote for someone on the basis that they feel the other side is ridiculing their candidate needs to grow the feck up: if your views don't align with Trump then there's no reason to be voting for him. If someone votes for him then they are responsible for the negative actions he's taking; not the people who are consistently, continually banging the drum as to how irresponsible and unfit to serve he is. Yeah, liberals and left-wingers need to have a good, proper think about their approach, and how to win over Trump voters, and perhaps a thread like this is very exclusive and fails to take into account the opinions of non-Trump voters, and fails to understand their perspective...but the bulk of the blame for the electing of Trump should still fall with the people who elected Trump. Not those who opposed him. It's such a shite, weak defence from people who would rather shirk responsibility when they're voting for a party who falsely claim they're all about individual responsibility.
 
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