You're asking for people to give Trump credit for not fecking this up? Seriously? That's now where we're at?
Wow.
The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated
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You're asking for people to give Trump credit for not fecking this up? Seriously? That's now where we're at?
Wow.
You're making a lot of assumptions here. How are we to know how the situation would've unfolded under another President? Your desire to undermine the success of this ISIS effort under Trump as it's just something 'any President' would've done is completely baseless. Is that how it's going to be every single time he achieves something?
No. ISIS have long been on the retreat. Which is natural because they've got a collection of far more advanced states all aiming to eliminate them. The Russian bombing of Aleppo massively dented their strength. As have the actions of all their opponents in recent years.
I'll ask again, what particular aspect of Trump's approach in getting rid of ISIS is particularly praiseworthy? Because assuming the Presidency and overseeing a process which was likely to happen anyway isn't something that's overly remarkable. Unless you can point to aspects of Trump's foreign policy, of course, which you believe have had a greater effect in eliminating ISIS than those of previous hawkish Presidents?
What specifically has Trump himself implemented and/or changed with regards to US efforts to bring down ISIS?
What else would a US president have done? Their foreign policy is pretty well established at this point and rarely changes. The only things Obama did that some other presidents might not have is remove sanctions against Cuba and the Iran deal - and the Iran deal is what he gets judged on, some criticising and some praising it. Other than that, he made little changes from Bush. And there's zero reason to think a different President following Obama would have changed the policy in Syria and Iraq. Hence you've got a sum total of shit all substance to back your claims here.
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No.
I'm saying that Obama, Bush, Clinton etc., any of the previous Presidents, would've received praise for dealing with such a complex international conflict and rightfully so, but because it's Trump, we're supposed to just shrug our shoulders and say 'So what?'
I posted before about there being a distinct 'Boy Who Cried Wolf' element to the Trump hysteria and it's still prevalent today. Call him out on what he deserves to be called out on and acknowledge success when it's earned. It's pretty simple. Otherwise it appears one side of the political landscape in the U.S., famous for its self-appointed tolerance, is damaging itself irreversibly. If 2016 was the wake-up call, 2020 is going to be the nightmare.
It's also worth noting that while ISIS have been (largely) defeated, they're far from completely eliminated and unfortunately they will continue in trying to perpetuate their ideology whenever they can. They're one of many, many terrorist groups which exist in a highly unstable Middle East, an area which is still a mess, even if ISIS have been curbed.
While their retreat is rightfully a cause for celebration, I'm not sure there's much cause for praise until we actually see wholesale changes and improvements in the Middle East that can be sustained over a longer period of time. Because there's every chance that this current period may end up being a brief respite before we see another group assume the mantle of ISIS, or before another major problem arises in one of the aforementioned countries within the Middle East. Especially when you've got leaders in power with a history of murdering their own civilians.
While their retreat is rightfully a cause for celebration, I'm not sure there's much cause for praise until we actually see wholesale changes and improvements in the Middle East that can be sustained over a longer period of time. Because there's every chance that this current period may end up being a brief respite before we see another group assume the mantle of ISIS, or before another major problem arises in one of the aforementioned countries within the Middle East. Especially when you've got leaders in power with a history of murdering their own civilians.
You've still to actually highlight what particular aspects of Trump's foreign policy have been worthy of praise in this instance. Plenty of people slammed Obama for his actions in foreign policy, and to suggest Trump critics were all universally behind him on that front is incorrect.
Speaking of reactions to Obamas handling of ISIS
This is the person you're talking about here. This moron.
Right? It's hard to keep up with all the stupid things he's saidChrist I'd forgotten that one.
Right? It's hard to keep up with all the stupid things he's said
Which makes it all the more baffling when people want to give him praise for his foreign policy. He's shown almost no nuance or understanding of the complex issues which exist out that way, and continuing the foreign policy of pretty much every post-war US President (for the most part) is hardly a reason for praise.
I mean, he called Puerto Rico's governor* their president. It's hard to have a nuanced foreign policy when you don't know where your own country ends.
*(probably governor, could have been one of the mayors but that was never clarified)
Nobody knew that, I’m sure
Also had to be told that Crimea had been annexed, because he didn't know.
/DonaldMy dear hope is that @Buchan is only trying to be contrarian for the sake of it here.
You've clearly been lucky enough not to read his other posts here.
Yeah ok Donald.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/opinion/sunday/jimmy-carter-lusts-trump-posting.html
Jimmy Carter seems a very reasonable, tolerant individual, something the Democratic Party used to take great pride in. It's okay to disagree with somebody without adopting a sense of superiority and condescension, and/or a desire to shut down contrasting opinions.
Jimmy Carter seems a very reasonable, tolerant individual, something the Democratic Party used to take great pride in. It's okay to disagree with somebody without adopting a sense of superiority and condescension, and/or a desire to shut down contrasting opinions.
Questioning your claims does not equate to condescension, especially when you ignore perfectly reasonable requests to back them up.
You seem to have missed the question(s) above...
I've learned a long, long time ago that entertaining anybody's questions in this thread is a foolhardy task. It's why I stay out of it for weeks/months on end and only pop my head in very occasionally. I'm not going to persuade/dissuade anyone here re: their position on Trump so just continue the echo chamber and circlejerk. Any time I mention I'm a liberal who just so happens to disagree (a lot) with the direction of the progressive movement, it's thrown back in my face and ridiculed. I'm fine with that, honestly. But please forgive my lack of hunger to argue five and six battles at a time whenever I do pop my head in the door.
(Incidentally, it was the same in the Election 2016 thread where it was 99% pro-Clinton wankfest and look how that turned out for all concerned.)
P.S. I'm not pro-Trump in any sense of the phrase. I just believe in bringing a semblance of parity to the table. We may ignore the lessons of 2016 at our peril because as it stands, Trump is heading to an eight-year term whether we like it or not.
I'm not on about me. I'm highlighting 2016/2017 in a nutshell: contrasting opinions are shouted down and people are labelled all sorts of horrible things for having the temerity to have a differing opinion. If this is the future of the 'progressive' movement, we are in for one hell of a rude awakening in the next election.
(If you ignore most of it, which was a Bernie wankfest, but ignoring thing seems par for the course for you)
Only it wasn't was it? I struggle to think of a single Clinton fan on this forum, she was just the opposition to an absolutely disgusting human being.
Answer the damn questions.
There is nothing wrong if you are Pro Trump. There is just no reason to paint a picture that you are somehow a middle road man in this entire debate. You are not, and it's fine with all of us if you are not.
You should consider running for office, you're a natural question dodger.
Yea, that's been peddled to death and it's STILL bollocks.
Asking you a question to validate your statements is not shouting you down or labelling you anything.
Pointing out when you (or others) repeat easily debunked sources is not shouting you down or labelling you anything.
You (and others) equate anything less than agreeing with you as shouting you down. People hold differing views and are simpler better able to back them up than those on the right have been able to do for the most part.
Ironically enough someone (apologies I can't remember who it was) from the lefter leaning perspective took a devils advocate approach and argued for the right at length and did a far better job of it than anyone who legitimately hods those views.
It is hilarious how he keeps claiming to be a liberal whilst brining up every idiotic alt-right talking point there is out there right now.
@Fener1907 and he was fecking great at it. Actually elaborated on his statements and explained them in a meaningful manner.
Oh wow.
Look at the absolute state of his fans behind him as he repeats. I really, really struggle not to condescend his support when this video is one that barely comes to mind when I think of the stupid shit he has said and done.
Every President who has followed Carter has used him in some way to negotiate / play a role in solving an issue.
Trump's not shown any inclination. A couple of years ago he referred to him as 'the late Jimmy Carter'.
Carter doesn't like him either but averting war with North Korea is his goal. For that he needs authorisation from Trump.
@Buchan Why should Trump be praised for defeating ISIS when the majority of the effort was started and done before he assumed office?
Also, what views do you hold that makes you a liberal?
Also, what views do you hold that makes you a liberal?
Source?
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