Not sure that this means anything in terms of the medical response. You can't open up because mainly old people die of it. And many countries economic support measures support the younger demographics proportionally more.
Time for UBI?
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
Not sure that this means anything in terms of the medical response. You can't open up because mainly old people die of it. And many countries economic support measures support the younger demographics proportionally more.
Time for UBI?
Well, boomers might die easily. I think dying trumps socially and economically as suffering the effects of this pandemic
Very interesting thread - read it all, it puts you right in the midst of it all:
I wouldn't say he is a complete fraud, he wouldn't this reputed and this consulted if he was one. He's unconventional, basically a influencer.
Not that I intended for my original post to spawn some sort of trauma dick waving contest, but you can't be serious in equating the deaths of tens of thousands of people (some of which are old folks) with the socio-economic aftereffects of this virus and the response on an upcoming generation.
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I would agree with you and I am not trying to dick contest. But I expect millions of deaths in 1 year time. And without the confinement I would expect tens of millions Maybe for that reason, as you expect "only" tens of thousands, our judgments differ
So my quote was because I saw it like that:
tens of millions, maybe +100 million with no confinement and an economic recession anyway vs a few millions and a deeper recession
And you probably see it like
A few tens of thousands death vs a deep recession
If I would see it like you probably I would agree. But as I see it my way I think is the right thing to do right now
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This
Why does it? Why does it matter who will suffer the most? It’s impossible to figure that out because suffering will come in different forms. There’s elderly people, people my age and younger all suffering from health implications and financial.
All age groups will be hit hard. I’m starting to read more that this virus will become endemic and also carries the possibility of reinfection. Looks like we are all going to be living with this thing for a long time.
@Wibble ‘s bolded bit.
Will be interesting to see what happens in Spain and Italy now lockdown restrictions are being lifted.
Fingers crossed for them.
Fingers crossed for them.
I’d say the people who have died and their families are more greatly shafted. Be grateful that you have your health and pick up the pieces once the restrictions start to get lifted. The history of humanity has been punctuated by responses to setbacks. Shit happens, don’t wallow.
The vast majority of tube traffic in London is people commuting to work, not tourists and day trippers. It will be a major challenge to lifting restrictions in the city, along with widespread bus usage. Companies who have survived and even thrived during this work from home period should continue enabling their staff to do so for an indefinite period.
Bang on the money. There’s a few very entitled posts in this thread, as though only a very specific (young-ish) intersection of society is impacted by Covid-19 but everyone else is getting on swimmingly. Can’t be doing with that pity party bollocks.
We see it with everything now. Pisses me right off. Maybe I’m turning into a grumpy old git but even so ...
I'm worried about the future for my 21 year old son but I'm also worried about my ability to retire before I die and support him in the future as well. My job and my wife's seem secure at the moment so I know I'm very well off in comparison to most but still worrying times for all.
Indeed.
Maybe if the woe-is-us millennials bothered to vote in elections rather than just whinge about how unfair everything is, they’d be able to actually bring their influence to bear.
Preach!
Why is it a slow fall compared to the steep accelerated rise?
And why hasnt the uk seen a fall or plateau yet (assuming the last few days fall has been due to the normal weekend lull) as were now in week 4 of lockdown.
Major difference in the UK was the approaches of governments when it came to public spending in the aftermath of each crisis.
I really don’t see that someone saying that the young have been shafted by this are entitled. From an economic perspective they have been shafted.
Those aged c.30-35 have/are forging careers in the face of two massive recessions and this could well impact their entire working career.
Sure those looking to retire in next couple of years have also been shafted as pension pots have probably lost a HUGE amount. But many of those will have a house that is bought and paid for and worth 3x what was paid for it.
I didn’t read the posts as this only impacting millennials, but to deny their prospects are bleak is a bit weird.
Those aged c.30-35 have/are forging careers in the face of two massive recessions and this could well impact their entire working career.
Sure those looking to retire in next couple of years have also been shafted as pension pots have probably lost a HUGE amount. But many of those will have a house that is bought and paid for and worth 3x what was paid for it.
I didn’t read the posts as this only impacting millennials, but to deny their prospects are bleak is a bit weird.
Emotionally yes. Financially no. The generation most affected by the virus are already financially secure. The generation starting their careers over the last 10 years are doing so in the worst economic environment for a century. The Great Depression was the last comparable time but i would argue there was more opportunity that came out of the years following that. This time all that will happen is those with money get an opportunity to buy more assets at cut prices. The young will just be continuing trying to build something for themselves in an even more difficult environment than before.
Indeed, two of the largest recessions ever, one hits the moment we leave uni and the other hits in our early 30's as we're trying to get our lives back in order. Both beyond our control. I have a lot of friends who still can't afford to buy property and either had to move home or rent at a massive cost. Then you've the fact that the years of extra taxes, fees etc. we've had to deal with (in Ireland anyway) that were finally getting eased off will probably come back into play after this.
Obviously what's happening right now totally outweighs any economic cost and I do think most people my age group understand the necessity of it, but it's still a total disaster for us and calling people entitled for being concerned, yet again, about what will happen, is harsh.
For Italy it took about 26 days to notice a genuine drop trend so this week is the acid test for UK, which is 22 days since lockdown. At this stage both UK and Italy have hit ~700 deaths but this could be related to weekend and easter in UK. Seeing a drop into the 600 range this week would be a good sign.
Also other countries had other measures like playing behind closed doors and stopping other events in hard hit areas weeks before, if UK continues on with high numbers between 700-900 it might point to these helping before a full lockdown.
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This is clearly going to be hugely challenging once things return to a semblance of normality.
I have seen a lot of speculation as to economic impact, in large part dictated by chosen political policy, but none of this can be spoken about with any degree of certainty yet.
In any case, it’s a bit too linear to talk about which age brackets are going to be disproportionately impacted by all this, and probably more appropriate to talk about BAME and low earning households being the most shafted.
I say all of this as a 32 year old with two children under the age of two. So basically falling into the bracket of people who will supposedly be most impacted. Other people can react as they wish but I don’t think it’s particularly productive to whinge about future scenarios that may not play out. It’s no good having a negative mindset, best to ensure you are well positioned to stand out in the job market moving forward. There will always be opportunity to make money if savvy enough.
We all have things to worry about and it is important that we all see each others perspective - worries, concerns included. I'm hoping that the world will learn from this and be keener on things like UBI and society as a family that looks after everyone be it in terms of socialised free health and education and a preferably a UBI. I am probably being stupidly optimistic and I'm quite willing to pay higher taxes to achieve it but I fear there will be a return to the not fit for purpose ways we currently operate.
Because singling out a particular section of society (your own) as being ‘disproportionately’ affected by this virus shows a narrow minded and entitled view.
All age groups will suffer the effects. you mention 30-35’s. What about 35-50’s? Many could lose their job and many of those will find it hard to get new ones in similar roles. So what do they do?
Many will need to retrain. How easy for them will that be? Most of them will already have families to support. Some, in their 50’ and onwards will probably not be able to retrain or find other employment, game over for those.
Im 45. Neither old nor young. I see my elderly relatives confined with no real contact with the outside world and living in real fear. What a way to spend your remaining days.
Myself? All my plans for the next 10-15 years could be out of the window. All of them discussions from as recently as 12 weeks ago with my Mrs about what we’re going to do, all the results of our hard work, in the future, they could all be wiped away in a flash.
We’d sold our house in February and bought a new one. That’s all fallen through now. But it doesn’t matter, we have each other and have our health and our children are well.
The young can and will adapt to whatever lies at the end of this. They’ll have their parents help and support and the ability and opportunity to retrain if necessary. No point in focusing on it and comparing levels of suffering.
I wonder what lies in store for my children, 15 and 12, but we’ll all just have to wait and see and do as best we can. My only selfish thought at this time is that I want to be around to see them grow up.
So no one is denying it will be hard for young people but to say it will disproportionately affect them is ridiculous. This thing has pulled the rug out from under all of us.
For once whether you’re old or young, or like me, in the middle, we’re all in this very much together and will be for the foreseeable future.
So hold tight.
My mother calls it “hollering before you are hurt.”
I’m with you, but fear we are both overly optimistic fools!
Fabulous post and some good perspective.
The post I saw was the young have been shafted. Not that the young had been shafted more than others.
You should do the government’s daily press briefing.
I agree with this, just weird that older posters said that the young had no right to say that they were forging careers in context of two utter shite economic recessions.
Those older don’t appear to empathise with the youth that are shit scared for their prospects of never getting on the property ladder, or perhaps just have got on the ladder and face a drop of 30% in property prices.
We had a it wont happen to us mentality in this country I feel, the government I mean. Also I didn't think wed get to italys numbers.
Most of us older ones have children of our own and are worrying for them. But what do you want us to do about it? What can we do about it?
Where do you possibly get the impression that all older people are financially secure? A huge number are not homeowners. They have no personal pension, they're looking forward to the luxury of the state pension to retire on. A lot aren't car owners. They've worked in what are now called minimum wage jobs all their lives, in and out of work for a hundred reasons, they've struggled to raise children through it all. No savings whatsoever. Maybe now in their fifties and hoping finally to have a few years to save up for the time when they won't be earning anything at all, or they were.
I’m the same age as you and going through similar stresses to you. That said, even before this crisis I felt thankful that I spent my 20s and 30s without any of the existential angst that the younger generation have been going through over the last decade. And now this.
The 90s was a phenomenal decade to be young, so we definitely lucked out with the timing of our birth. Trying to get your career started and enjoy your life while still young and relatively responsibility free during two deep recessions, one after the other, has to be pretty grim.
It comes across as highly entitled when you whinge about the specific problems your age bracket may face at a time when the entire globe is being decimated.
Edit: You are also making sweeping generalisations about other age brackets, assuming you know their pressures and backstories.
In all seriousness though, that’s another great point. If you have reached a certain age then you have the perennial angst of worrying about your kids with everything going on. No one is going to come out of this in great shape.
So you agree that the young are fecked then as you’re worrying for your children. But the youth can’t say that?!
It's not about whether all older people are financially secure.
It's about whether older people tend to be more financially secure than younger people. Are they more likely to have secure jobs, more likely to own their own homes, more likely to have savings, etc. If they are then (one would think) they will tend to be in a better position than an age group who are less likely to have those advantages.
Obviously every age category will be effected, I get that there will be vulnerable people in all age groups and I get why people prefer to think of it as us all being in it together.
But if the argument is that certain age groups won't or haven't been disproportionately effected more than others by the two crises then as far as I'm aware that's straight-up wrong, because there's no magic element of economics that says groups who tend to be in very different financial and social positions will still be impacted to exactly the same extent.