SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[decorativeed]

Schools and colleges are closing, students have mostly gone home. There was a blip upwards in the case curve during the Euros, but it faded as fast. The warm weather will have helped, it's a lot easier to follow advice to meet outside when it's like this.

We don't know what impact the wider reopening will have yet, or whether the age demographics will change. That'll show up next week.

Meanwhile even one dose of a vaccine will have an impact, on the younger ones it'll have an impact about two weeks after the jab.

All my instincts say it's time to offer incentives for getting the jab and give better support for people quarantining. We won't stop the anti-vaxers and the covid deniers from spouting idiocy, but we can encourage the apathetic and we can assist the ones who would take up a walk-in option if it was a van in the supermarket carpark rather than a trip across town to a football stadium.

I spoke to the nurse who did my vaccinations, and she said that even during a day of non-stop rain a few weeks back, the pop-up vaccination clinic they did in the local Asda carpark was the busiest they'd had, so you may be on to something there.

 

[decorativeed]

More than 60% (yes that many) of the senior team of Doctors at my Wife's work place have decided to go part time due to the influx of extra patients and less staff to deal with them since Covid began. They are burnt out. Most of them don't plan to return to work full time and some are thinking of changing careers or leaving for Australian and US healthcare systems which actually pays doctors what they are worth making the hardship somewhat acceptable.

I couldn't blame them. It must have been horrific to work through.

 

[11101]

A most excellent development in Italy.

From 6th August if you dont have the Covid certificate you won't be allowed in restaurants, bars, gyms, swimming pools, stadiums, events or pretty much public facilties of any kind.

 

[jojojo]

A most excellent development in Italy.

From 6th August if you dont have the Covid certificate you won't be allowed in restaurants, bars, gyms, swimming pools, stadiums, events or pretty much public facilties of any kind.

That's a vaccine or recent negative test pass isn't it? I'm happy with that idea, it means everyone can do something to stop the spread, and no one has an excuse not to.

I admit - despite my trust in the vaccines, and seeing them as the only realistic way out of the epidemic - that I'm reluctant to see taking the vaccine as the only way for people to prove that they're bothered about stopping infection spreading. Compulsion seems wrong, but making it easier in everyday life to be vaxxed rather than unvaxxed seems necessary - because too many people can't imagine that infection or illness can happen to them.

 

[golden_blunder]

A most excellent development in Italy.

From 6th August if you dont have the Covid certificate you won't be allowed in restaurants, bars, gyms, swimming pools, stadiums, events or pretty much public facilties of any kind.

Thumbs up. Incentive to go get jabbed

 

[golden_blunder]

That's a vaccine or recent negative test pass isn't it? I'm happy with that idea, it means everyone can do something to stop the spread, and no one has an excuse not to.

I admit - despite my trust in the vaccines, and seeing them as the only realistic way out of the epidemic - that I'm reluctant to see taking the vaccine as the only way for people to prove that they're bothered about stopping infection spreading. Compulsion seems wrong, making it easier in everyday life to be vaxxedv rather than unvaxxed seems necessary - because too many people can't imagine that infection or illness can happen to them.

I don’t trust most of the tests because it involves people assaulting their own noses with a swab or their tonsils. Most people can’t do it themselves and it only tells you that you don’t have it at that point in time. Vaccines are the way

 

[11101]

That's a vaccine or recent negative test pass isn't it? I'm happy with that idea, it means everyone can do something to stop the spread, and no one has an excuse not to.

I admit - despite my trust in the vaccines, and seeing them as the only realistic way out of the epidemic - that I'm reluctant to see taking the vaccine as the only way for people to prove that they're bothered about stopping infection spreading. Compulsion seems wrong, making it easier in everyday life to be vaxxedv rather than unvaxxed seems necessary - because too many people can't imagine that infection or illness can happen to them.

You can get it with the 1st vaccine dose, a negative test within 48 hours, or if you recovered from Covid in the last 6 months.

It's definitely necessary to have some alternative to getting vaccinated, and by law Covid tests will be sold at cost price.

I don’t trust most of the tests because it involves people assaulting their own noses with a swab or their tonsils. Most people can’t do it themselves and it only tells you that you don’t have it at that point in time. Vaccines are the way

Not here. Tests must be done by a doctor, nurse or pharmacist.

 

[golden_blunder]

You can get it with the 1st vaccine dose, a negative test within 48 hours, or if you recovered from Covid in the last 6 months.

It's definitely necessary to have some alternative to getting vaccinated, and by law Covid tests will be sold at cost price.



Not here. Tests must be done by a doctor, nurse or pharmacist.

What about those ones you can order to home?

 

[Wibble]

Children do seem to catch and spread Delta far more than previous variants. Australia just approve vaccinations for the over 12s (not that we have any vaccine) and Pfizer and Moderna should be given to all over 5's (or younger depending in the trials) as soon as their trails with kids are completed.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...085dcd6b596185#block-60fa2fe08f085dcd6b596185

 

[11101]

What about those ones you can order to home?

You can still get self test kits but they're not valid for the certificate or any kind of quarantine/travel tests you need to have. Just a toy really.

 

[esmufc07]

Children do seem to catch and spread Delta far more than previous variants. Australia just approve vaccinations for the over 12s (not that we have any vaccine) and Pfizer and Moderna should be given to all over 5's (or younger depending in the trials) as soon as their trails with kids are completed.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...085dcd6b596185#block-60fa2fe08f085dcd6b596185

My brother has his wife are both sadly anti vaccine and they said vaccinating kids equates to child abuse when I saw them yesterday. Didn’t have the energy to argue so just said OK.

 

[Wibble]

My brother has his wife are both sadly anti vaccine and they said vaccinating kids equates to child abuse when I saw them yesterday. Didn’t have the energy to argue so just said OK.

Not vaccinating kids in general is a low level of child abuse in my book.

 

[Penna]

Getting young teens vaccinated has to be a priority now, with the school holidays here. I'm glad they're already doing it here in Italy.

We have a vaccination centre just down the road, and when I went past it yesterday it was really busy there. This is in a small semi-rural town, so that's good to see. People are still coming out in large numbers to get their vaccinations.

Italy could have made it easier for people by allowing us to go to the nearest centre - we had to drive to one an hour away because the one just down the road is in the neighbouring province to ours, and Macerata residents have to be jabbed in Macerata, not Fermo!

 

[11101]

Getting young teens vaccinated has to be a priority now, with the school holidays here. I'm glad they're already doing it here in Italy.

We have a vaccination centre just down the road, and when I went past it yesterday it was really busy there. This is in a small semi-rural town, so that's good to see. People are still coming out in large numbers to get their vaccinations.

Italy could have made it easier for people by allowing us to go to the nearest centre - we had to drive to one an hour away because the one just down the road is in the neighbouring province to ours, and Macerata residents have to be jabbed in Macerata, not Fermo!

That's a region thing. Here you can search for vaccination centres by province and go to any centre within your region.

 

[Balljy]

A study funded by the DHSC has found that separating Phizer jabs slightly further apart shows both higher antibody counts and higher proportions of helper T cells after the second dose. The study was on a 10 week period, but they have suggested an 8 week interval to get people double jabbed quicker as a sweet spot. This is similar to AZ I think where longer intervals are showing higher antibody counts.

Pfizer vaccine second dose has ‘sweet spot’ after eight weeks, UK scientists say | Coronavirus | The Guardian

 

[Penna]

That's a region thing. Here you can search for vaccination centres by province and go to any centre within your region.

That would have made so much sense for Marche. I really don't understand why they've done this, as Fermo province is also in Marche. We've had the ancients in our village having to find a way to get to an industrial estate outside Macerata city - but even so, they seem to have managed it.

 

[11101]

A study funded by the DHSC has found that separating Phizer jabs slightly further apart shows both higher antibody counts and higher proportions of helper T cells after the second dose. The study was on a 10 week period, but they have suggested an 8 week interval to get people double jabbed quicker as a sweet spot. This is similar to AZ I think where longer intervals are showing higher antibody counts.

Pfizer vaccine second dose has ‘sweet spot’ after eight weeks, UK scientists say | Coronavirus | The Guardian

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.

That would have made so much sense for Marche. I really don't understand why they've done this, as Fermo province is also in Marche. We've had the ancients in our village having to find a way to get to an industrial estate outside Macerata city - but even so, they seem to have managed it.

Don't the local doctors and pharmacists do it in your region?

 

[Lj82]

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.




Don't the local doctors and pharmacists do it in your region?

It depends on context though? The thinking here in Singapore is to vaccinate as many people with double doses as possible, as completing two doses significantly increases protection. Rather than taking longer to help every vaccinated person achieve above 95% protection, it is more effective to vaccinate more people at 90% level of protection?

 

[Balljy]

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.

That crossed my mind as I was reading it. To be fair, it's very likely that the ideal interval is different from what the manufacturers have suggested. They've tested on a program and we should really follow the results from that, but it doesn't mean that a different interval doesn't have a higher immune response.

The problem is that the UK government went away from the manufacturers guidelines before these studies were done rather than after.

 

[Penna]

Don't the local doctors and pharmacists do it in your region?

They certainly don't in our area - we only have one part-time doctor and one pharmacist here. Right at the beginning the doctor vaccinated all the residents of our care home (his surgery is part of the same building), but other than that, no.

It may be different in the cities in our region, I don't know. It's difficult if you live in an outlying area, as many people do in this country.

 

[11101]

It depends on context though? The thinking here in Singapore is to vaccinate as many people with double doses as possible, as completing two doses significantly increases protection. Rather than taking longer to help every vaccinated person achieve above 95% protection, it is more effective to vaccinate more people at 90% level of protection?

That's the approach everywhere is taking. When one dose is potentially only 30% effective (AZ) against the Delta variant, it's probably the right approach.

The UK is a bit of a variant factory. Half the problematic variants in circulation either came from there or used it as a slingshot into the rest of Europe/the world.

That crossed my mind as I was reading it. To be fair, it's very likely that the ideal interval is different from what the manufacturers have suggested. They've tested on a program and we should really follow the results from that, but it doesn't mean that a different interval doesn't have a higher immune response.

The problem is that the UK government went away from the manufacturers guidelines before these studies were done rather than after.

That's exactly it. The issue everybody always had was that the government sought to go in a direction and then worry about finding evidence to back it up later. That's the way they've handled the whole pandemic, the early vaccination campaign was the first time they were successful with it. Now there is a risk it could backfire spectacularly.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/openin...668fzxs72u7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

[F-Red]

The problem is that the UK government went away from the manufacturers guidelines before these studies were done rather than after.

They didn't, the JCVI made the recommendations. I'm sure if there wasn't a degree of confidence then they wouldn't have recommended it.

 

[Balljy]

They didn't, the JCVI made the recommendations. I'm sure if there wasn't a degree of confidence then they wouldn't have recommended it.

I think it's pretty clear that the data wasn't there in January to make a scientific decision. It would have been an informed decision based on data from previous vaccines, but was against the manufacturers guidelines and not backed by data on the actual vaccine being administered because it was literally impossible to have that data at that stage. I'm sure they were confident that it wouldn't have any major repercussions, but the decision would have been guided by trying to get as many 1st jabs out as possible at the time.

The studies on intervals will probably start flowing in now as the data is available, but I think the relevance will move to whether the original vaccine interval has any effect on booster jabs now. If a longer initial interval provides longer term protection (or not) it may guide governments on that.

 

[decorativeed]

My brother has his wife are both sadly anti vaccine and they said vaccinating kids equates to child abuse when I saw them yesterday. Didn’t have the energy to argue so just said OK.

Just the covid vaccine or all vaccines? It's worrying seeing so many people of our generation taking it for granted that they can't get mumps, measles, polio, tetanus etc, putting it down to their magic immune systems and denying the actual scientific means of this immunity to their kids. Total ignorance and ego at play.

 

[jojojo]

That crossed my mind as I was reading it. To be fair, it's very likely that the ideal interval is different from what the manufacturers have suggested. They've tested on a program and we should really follow the results from that, but it doesn't mean that a different interval doesn't have a higher immune response.

The problem is that the UK government went away from the manufacturers guidelines before these studies were done rather than after.

Yep, on Pfizer they guessed it would be ok, that everyone would get some protection from dose one (which they do) and that there would be no loss of eventual efficacy after dose two (which turned out to be true). The "might even be better/longer lasting" thing wasn't unreasonable based on other vaccines but it was untested at that stage.

It's worth saying though that trials are usually about working out the minimum time between doses (from a safety and effectiveness perspective). Because 99 times out of a hundred, that's what people want.

 

[Penna]

As @11101 mentioned earlier:

Italy's Covid-19 vaccine passport will soon be required in order to access more leisure and cultural venues, including indoor restaurants under a new decree signed on Thursday. The Italian government announced on Thursday evening that the use of the country’s certificazione verde or ‘green certificate’ health pass scheme will be extended from Friday August 6th.

People in Italy will soon need the pass to enter gyms, swimming pools, museums, cinemas, theatres, sports stadiums and other public venues, including indoor seating areas at bars and restaurants, Health Minister Roberto Speranza stated at a press conference.

The government had also discussed making the green pass mandatory for domestic flights and long-distance trains, but this was not included in the decree, and will be discussed at a later date according to Italian media reports.

Nightclubs are to remain closed completely, contrary to reopening plans suggested by government ministers in recent weeks.

Business owners are expected to enforce the rules, with the government stating that “a fine of between 400 and 1000 euros can be applied to both the operator and the customer” if rules are broken. Repeated failure to enforce the rules could result in businesses being shut down for up to ten days.

https://www.thelocal.it/20210722/latest-italy-makes-green-pass-mandatory-as-coronavirus-cases-rise/

I think the decision not to open nightclubs is very sensible, having see the pictures from England.

 

[golden_blunder]

Anyone see the pic from Bournemouth beach on Saturday?

 

[F-Red]

I think it's pretty clear that the data wasn't there in January to make a scientific decision. It would have been an informed decision based on data from previous vaccines, but was against the manufacturers guidelines and not backed by data on the actual vaccine being administered because it was literally impossible to have that data at that stage. I'm sure they were confident that it wouldn't have any major repercussions, but the decision would have been guided by trying to get as many 1st jabs out as possible at the time.

The studies on intervals will probably start flowing in now as the data is available, but I think the relevance will move to whether the original vaccine interval has any effect on booster jabs now. If a longer initial interval provides longer term protection (or not) it may guide governments on that.

Of course, that was what they said at the time, they made no secret about it. I don't see the reason for the hindsight now? The JCVI took a fairly educated risk on extending the vaccines doses so they could stem the death rate during the second wave based on a limited inbound supply. It turned out to be the right decision in terms of reducing the rate, and hospitalisation to a large extent. Them adjusting to the sweet spot now shouldn't be perceived as a negative, as this approach saved thousands of lives in the process. I'm sure the alternative by following the manufacturers guidelines would have seen many more deaths.

 

[F-Red]

Anyone see the pic from Bournemouth beach on Saturday?

Is this a similar story to the same Bournemouth beach that was due to bring waves of covid last year? There's enough pictures taken with zoom lenses that can make some pictures perfect for comment.

 

[esmufc07]

Just the covid vaccine or all vaccines? It's worrying seeing so many people of our generation taking it for granted that they can't get mumps, measles, polio, tetanus etc, putting it down to their magic immune systems and denying the actual scientific means of this immunity to their kids. Total ignorance and ego at play.

All vaccines. Their argument for not getting this one is that we don’t know the long term effects of the vaccine. Yet when pressed that we do know the long term effects of MMR and other vaccines, they still won’t have those and they turn the argument into something else (they have aluminium in them which is poisoning children, children have too many vaccines, natural immunity is better etc.).

 

[golden_blunder]

Is this a similar story to the same Bournemouth beach that was due to bring waves of covid last year? There's enough pictures taken with zoom lenses that can make some pictures perfect for comment.

No there wasn’t a COVID story about it, just more that the heatwave brought out loads of people and it mentioned that particular beach was “crammed”. I just thought myself in the current circumstances I’d turn and go do something else

 

[Brwned]

I did find that amusing.

A UK study, funded by the UK government, finds the UK's approach to vaccination works best.

Yet the rest of the world continues to vaccinate as the manufacturers intended.

What part of the results do you question? There were three key conclusions: more antibodies, fewer t-cells, higher proportion of helper T-cells. That's entirely consistent with the data available before the vaccine was rolled out anywhere. Is there a way someone else could set up the study that wouldn't produce those results? Otherwise it sounds a bit churlish.

 

[F-Red]

No there wasn’t a COVID story about it, just more that the heatwave brought out loads of people and it mentioned that particular beach was “crammed”. I just thought myself in the current circumstances I’d turn and go do something else

It's outdoors and a heat wave, as far as places go to visit it should be fine.

 

[Wolverine]

Slightly not-as-bad-as-expected new covid cases in the UK this week, around mid 30k today, possible plateauing but need larger time frame to compare
Possibly effect of virus still in incubation phase for many post-freedom day, PCR turnaround time longer, ignoring of symptoms, atypical symptoms, fewer kids getting regular LFTs since not in school but hopefully enough behaviourally responsible people in communities to assist the immunity in population to break up infection chains.

 

[decorativeed]

All vaccines. Their argument for not getting this one is that we don’t know the long term effects of the vaccine. Yet when pressed that we do know the long term effects of MMR and other vaccines, they still won’t have those and they turn the argument into something else (they have aluminium in them which is poisoning children, children have too many vaccines, natural immunity is better etc.).

Do they use deodorant in their house? Because they'll be 'poisoning their kids' everytime they spray their pits. Natural immunity is better, obviously, but we have vaccines to make up for our total lack of natural immunity to serious deseases.

I know I'm preaching to the converted here though, so I'm sorry you have to deal with this. What do your parents have to say to them about it? Presumably they got the both of you vaccinated as kids rather than bang on about trace metals being more harmful than rubella or diptheria.

 

[F-Red]

Slightly not-as-bad-as-expected new covid cases in the UK this week, around mid 30k today, possible plateauing but need larger time frame to compare
Possibly effect of virus still in incubation phase for many post-freedom day, PCR turnaround time longer, ignoring of symptoms, atypical symptoms, fewer kids getting regular LFTs since not in school but hopefully enough behaviourally responsible people in communities to assist the immunity in population to break up infection chains.

Schools finished yesterday, so I'd expect to see some improvements in those numbers in the coming weeks.

 

[Oldyella]

So, got pinged today and working back how long I need to isolate suggests its from Monday. But I barely left the house that day, 5 minute trip to local shop for a loaf of bread. I thought you needed to be near someone for a prolonged period for it to flag up?

 

[Wolverine]

So, got pinged today and working back how long I need to isolate suggests its from Monday. But I barely left the house that day, 5 minute trip to local shop for a loaf of bread. I thought you needed to be near someone for a prolonged period for it to flag up?

Sorry to hear
Its within 2 metres with the phone of someone who has tested positive for Covid-19 for at least 15 minutes.

Certain workers don't have to self-isolate if exemption requested by employer, listed here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-54239922

 

[decorativeed]

So, got pinged today and working back how long I need to isolate suggests its from Monday. But I barely left the house that day, 5 minute trip to local shop for a loaf of bread. I thought you needed to be near someone for a prolonged period for it to flag up?

Sometimes it's from the day before you think it was, as it's 10 full days of isolation. So if you were exposed on sunday evening for example, it'd be ten days from Monday. Did you go anywhere on Sunday?

 

[Beans]

Do they use deodorant in their house? Because they'll be 'poisoning their kids' everytime they spray their pits. Natural immunity is better, obviously, but we have vaccines to make up for our total lack of natural immunity to serious deseases.

I know I'm preaching to the converted here though, so I'm sorry you have to deal with this. What do your parents have to say to them about it? Presumably they got the both of you vaccinated as kids rather than bang on about trace metals being more harmful than rubella or diptheria.

You're thinking of anti-perspitants and deoderant/anti-perspitants. They clog your pores with aluminum so they can't sweat. Deodorants don't have that.