SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

sullydnl said:
Hmm, this is a good point. I was thinking of it from an Irish perspective (which has one of the most centralised states in Europe) but for other countries it would be a lot more complex and would presumably take a long time.

Though surely there'll be some pressure on governments to at least be seen to put measures in place to prevent a crisis on this scale again? Which I would have thought would require instigating some sort of analysis, report, findings and recommendations from someone.
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Analysis are always interesting, so it should definitely be done but I don't really like the idea of starting anything with a predetermined outcome, in this case that someone is definitely punishable. I do believe that organizational theories will have to be rethunk and when it comes to medical equipements, gears and essential drugs we will have to follow the same logic that we have with energy where most developed countries have substantial reserves and can last several months without new supplies. But when it comes to the actual organization of people, it gets a lot more complicated, lockdowns have a massive impact on households finances and small businesses, each airport or care home director could follow very stringent health policies when there is an epidemy on an other continent but you just need one person that doesn't follow instructions to create a cluster and that person could be anyone, a resident, an employee or a traveller.

On a side note, I also believe that we should have a medical/paramedical service, it's a lot more useful than a military service and in case of pandemics, it would be very useful to be able to maybe double the staff in health services.
 
horsechoker said:
It's depressing to think that when this is said and done, those who made decisions which exacerbated the crisis won't face any repercussions.
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Not only no repercussions, but we will be told that they actually did a fantastic job and we should be thankful to them that the death toll wasn't higher
 
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sullydnl said:
I wonder if there'll be any scope for a post-event inquiry into the UK government's handling of the situation? Or other countries government's for that matter?

In other words, will we actually see governments which made drastic errors being officially held to account? Or will it be down to the public to judge then through votes at the next GE, whenever that is?
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If I survive this crap I'm going to chase the responsible in my country (and region, first) until I'm dead or they pay for it. Many others are planning to do the same. We're just waiting for the virus to give us a break, as it would be counterproductive right now.

I think Portugal has done great, since this started here. But it should have never started here, not in this way, and the same can be said for any country in Europe.

Still, I'm seriously thinking about whistleblowing my region's problems to the national press in the next few days. I've only not done it because I feel it may cause collateral damage to people who have done mistakes (like anyone does) but are actually doing a good work, so I have to gauge very carefully how to approach this and have a serious conversation with the potential "victims" first. The reason I'm thinking of this is because I think the problems in my region are far too serious and pressure to change things now can still have positive impact. Unlike at the national level, on which I think the response has been ok, and there's plenty of time to attribute blame, here it's urgent that the people in charge are replaced. Regional press is bought, so my only option is the national one.
 
JPRouve said:
Analysis are always interesting, so it should definitely be done but I don't really like the idea of starting anything with a predetermined outcome, in this case that someone is definitely punishable. I do believe that organizational theories will have to be rethunk and when it comes to medical equipements, gears and essential drugs we will have to follow the same logic that we have with energy where most developed countries have substantial reserves and can last several months without new supplies. But when it comes to the actual organization of people, it gets a lot more complicated, lockdowns have a massive impact on households finances and small businesses, each airport or care home director could follow very stringent health policies when there is an epidemy on an other continent but you just need one person that doesn't follow instructions to create a cluster and that person could be anyone, a resident, an employee or a traveller.

On a side note, I also believe that we should have a medical/paramedical service, it's a lot more useful than a military service and in case of pandemics, it would be very useful to be able to maybe double the staff in health services.
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(They may already be, I don't know) but I wonder if the medically trained members of the armed forces have been seconded into 'normal' medical service?

Can see no reason why not, at least a decent percentage of them. I know certain soldiers are involved in basic support (food distribution)
 
stepic said:
there’s absolutely no way we’re all staying in permanent lockdown for another 12-18 months. It’s just not possible.
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I’ll say it again, this is necessity not a choice. We don’t get to choose whether we want to live as before or not, we just cannot go back to previous life before there is vaccine or effective treatment. Full lockdown will be lifted but there will have to be serious restrictions for the next couple of years at least (even when there’s vaccine it will take months to distribute it to everyone). If we can have life as before in 2022 we will be incredibly lucky.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
(They may already be, I don't know) but I wonder if the medically trained members of the armed forces have been seconded into 'normal' medical service?

Can see no reason why not, at least a decent percentage of them. I know certain soldiers are involved in basic support (food distribution)
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In France it has been done but we are talking about small amount of people, 1400 people. If you want a significant amount of medically trained people it will have to come from the civilian population.
 
sullydnl said:
I wonder if there'll be any scope for a post-event inquiry into the UK government's handling of the situation? Or other countries government's for that matter?

In other words, will we actually see governments which made drastic errors being officially held to account? Or will it be down to the public to judge then through votes at the next GE, whenever that is?
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There should be an inquiry in every single country, not just the UK. I think there will be too.

An inquiry isn't about attributing blame though, it's about identifying areas for improvement. Some will go hand in hand but that's not an inquiries purpose. Never has been.
 
For what it's worth, I think the blame lies a lot more with doctors (specific members of the class) rather than governments. Those "experts" in Sweden that @Regulus Arcturus Black keeps banging about are a lot more to blame than the Swedish government of course, whose members have no competence in this area and rely on proper advice.
 
Arruda said:
For what it's worth, I think the blame lies a lot more with doctors (specific members of the class) rather than governments. Those "experts" in Sweden that @Regulus Arcturus Black keeps banging about are a lot more to blame than the Swedish government of course, whose members have no competence in this area and rely on proper advice.
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Yeah, should we start blaming medical doctors for not being able to cure all patients? Sounds ridiculous right? Just as ridiculous as expecting scientists to have all the answers.
 
0le said:
Yeah, should we start blaming medical doctors for not being able to cure all patients? Sounds ridiculous right? Just as ridiculous as expecting scientists to have all the answers.
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Who said anything about not being able to cure? I'm not talking about clinical doctors.

You may start by blaming the ones who are paid to actually pay attention to pandemics. Some of these were vacationing in cruise ships by mid-March. They are the ones who should have warned the authorities, and, failing that, put external pressure on them through the media.

In Portugal, The National Council for Public Health (which advises the government on these issues) were completely against containment measures by our Government. These are our public health specialists for fecks sake. They were cast aside (never heard of them again for a few weeks) obviously, but their negligent inaction won't be forgotten.


Meanwhile, in South Korea the same people spent the last few years helping the government to prepare for a possible pandemic like this.
 
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What exactly do people really expect from the response in being much different?
No country in the world is ever properly prepared for a pandemic, especially Western countries.
East Asia in general has done better because its ingrained in their entire society to wear face masks, go back to January in the U.K when some people here were concerned and began to wear them, they were being shamed online (some in this thread)
As for PPE, most countries were at the mercy of China (in equipment and truth) who were hoarding from December to February.
In future to be better prepared for single nation responses de-globalisation and a increase in protectionism would be needed if thats the route people want to go down..
 
TheReligion said:
There should be an inquiry in every single country, not just the UK. I think there will be too.

An inquiry isn't about attributing blame though, it's about identifying areas for improvement. Some will go hand in hand but that's not an inquiries purpose. Never has been.
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Yep, the main purpose of any inquiry should be to come up with recommendations to improve things. I just framed it as a way of attributing blame/responsibility to government in the context of the prior posts about current government approval ratings.
 
sullydnl said:
Yep, the main purpose of any inquiry should be to come up with recommendations to improve things. I just framed it as a way of attributing blame/responsibility to government in the context of the prior posts about current government approval ratings.
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Yeah I understand that. I just don't like the singling out of the UK as it seems agenda driven (not by you). Every country has something to learn from this and an inquiry into the overall global response needs to take place when the time is right.
 
sullydnl said:
I wonder if there'll be any scope for a post-event inquiry into the UK government's handling of the situation? Or other countries government's for that matter?

In other words, will we actually see governments which made drastic errors being officially held to account? Or will it be down to the public to judge then through votes at the next GE, whenever that is?
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It’ll be the normal ‘We’ve appointed his lordship Judge Rumpletrousers to carry out a 12 year investigation costing £10m which will discover that all the politicians who are no longer in power might have make a few decisions differently but probably did ok considering they’re his golfing buddies’.
 
Arruda said:
You may start by blaming the ones who are paid to actually pay attention to pandemics. Some of these were vacationing in cruise ships by mid-March. They are the ones who should have warned the authorities, and, failing that, put external pressure on them through the media.
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Not really sure what you mean by people going on cruises. To be honest I am not really sure who or what you are referring to, and which country.

I am of the opinion that whilst the pandemic is ongoing, it is rather stupid to assign blame to anyone, any group or any government. I'd much rather first get over the pandemic and then once the dust has settled and people have had time to grieve, only then look for answers. Everyone is far too impatient and emotional right now, and there is also still a need to collect and study present and future data before any rational observations can be made.
 
0le said:
Not really sure what you mean by people going on cruises. To be honest I am not really sure who or what you are referring to, and which country.

I am of the opinion that whilst the pandemic is ongoing, it is rather stupid to assign blame to anyone, any group or any government. I'd much rather first get over the pandemic and then once the dust has settled and people have had time to grieve, only then look for answers. Everyone is far too impatient and emotional right now, and there is also still a need to collect and study present and future data before any rational observations can be made.
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I edited my post to provide more info. I'm talking about Portugal, a country were things are going comparatively well in relation to our wealthier neighbours, and one of the first countries in Europe to impose measures. I think we were negligent here, let alone countries like UK, US and others.

And yes, I'm talking about after the pandemic. Try following a bit of the ongoing discussion before jumping to conclusions after a single post.
 
TheReligion said:
Yeah I understand that. I just don't like the singling out of the UK as it seems agenda driven (not by you). Every country has something to learn from this and an inquiry into the overall global response needs to take place when the time is right.
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The UK is singled out, because a) this is the board of an English club meaning Brits probably make up the largest user group and b) because of the numbers and reports like this one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ropes-worst-hit-by-coronavirus-study-predicts
 
TheReligion said:
There should be an inquiry in every single country, not just the UK. I think there will be too.

An inquiry isn't about attributing blame though, it's about identifying areas for improvement. Some will go hand in hand but that's not an inquiries purpose. Never has been.
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Been posted here before but if true (and to be fair, Reuters report and seems to be laying out facts rather than making their own conclusions), I'd expect some significant changes in policies and processes g/fwd. The only positive I am trying to take out of this situation is the hope that the world learns some lessons.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci-idUSKBN21P1VF
 
Arruda said:
I edited my post to provide more info. I'm talking about Portugal, a country were things are going comparatively well in relation to our wealthier neighbours, and one of the first countries in Europe to impose measures. I think we were negligent here, let alone countries like UK, US and others.

And yes, I'm talking about after the pandemic. Try following a bit of the ongoing discussion before jumping to conclusions after a single post.
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No you arent. You have already jumped to the conclusion that your health board was negligent. That isn't waiting til the pandemic is over is it?
 
do.ob said:
The UK is singled out, because a) this is the board of an English club meaning Brits probably make up the largest user group and b) because of the numbers and reports like this one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ropes-worst-hit-by-coronavirus-study-predicts
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Includes "Prof Neil Ferguson, of Imperial College London, said the IHME figures on “healthcare demand” – including hospital bed use and deaths – were twice as high as they should be."

Given the ICL are held in high regard by pretty much everyone (their data showed initial UK stance/herd immunity was not the right thing to do?), I'd probably take their views over t'other... and in the midst of a global pandemic, I wouldn't expect media to sensationalise in the same way I'd expect media to ask some better questions of the Govt at the moment.


EDIT.

The article also says "The IHME modelling forecasts that by 4 August the UK will see a total of 66,314 deaths – an average taken from a large estimate range of between 14,572 and 219,211 deaths, indicating the uncertainties around it." So by their own figures, it could be the bottom end which would (already) be under some other European countries. But that doesn't stop a clickbait headline in the midst of a pandemic. Irresponsible

I get media (and people) have political slants but now's not the time for this type of headline. The story is fine (ish)
 
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Sarni said:
I’ll say it again, this is necessity not a choice. We don’t get to choose whether we want to live as before or not, we just cannot go back to previous life before there is vaccine or effective treatment. Full lockdown will be lifted but there will have to be serious restrictions for the next couple of years at least (even when there’s vaccine it will take months to distribute it to everyone). If we can have life as before in 2022 we will be incredibly lucky.
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Do you write for a UK red top? Jesus.
 
Pexbo said:
Journalist: "Mr Raab, I'd like to know your personal opinion on immigration workers".

Raab: "Well thank you and that's a very good question which I will pass over to Dr Whitty who is best placed to answer this"
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Why would it be relevant to ask his opinion on immigrant workers? Fact is, they are here legally and doing a fine job. Thats exactly the sort of question that should not be asked at this time. Questions should be asked about the coronavirus situtaion, not about government immigration policy. How about education policy, or transport policy. All it does is cloud the matter at hand.
Lets all stay focussed on covid during the q and a and dissect the knock on issues afterwards
 
Pablo76 said:
Do you write for a UK red top? Jesus.
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If you think you will be able to go to concerts/pubs/football games while thousands of people are dying from coronavirus, well you are wrong. Restaurants and bars may open with limited capacity, shopping malls will definitely have to open within the next 3 months but it will be a long time before everything is back to as it was in 2019 and before.
 
Arruda said:
In Portugal, The National Council for Public Health (which advises the government on these issues) were completely against containment measures by our Government. These are our public health specialists for fecks sake. They were cast aside (never heard of them again for a few weeks) obviously, but their negligent inaction won't be forgotten.
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I think this a common feature in many countries, and I hope we'll find out why the experts on this matter underestimated the threat to such a degree. It seems like the models they were using for potential spread stem from the era of horse & cart travel. The Norwegian experts, as late as February 25th, estimated that we would have less than 100 confirmed cases before Easter. Fortunately, the government took charge of the situation.
 
Something that has been of interest so far. Hancock and the medical officers have been banging on about the accuracy of the tests since the start. Does anyone know the accuracy of the tests other countries have been running?
Im sure i have read that some tests from china have been in accurate and sent to other countries. Germany are widely regarded as been the best at testing, are their tests all made in house as it were, and what rate of accuracy do they have..?
 
Dancfc said:
Using the same rules that have been thrust upon us is it really an essential thing to do at this point when 20 flights from New York are coming in a day.
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Stopping flights at this point would have a rather limited effect, I'd imagine, as well as some negative secondary effects.

The overwhelming majority of flights have been cancelled already, some flights are still essential, many flights will consist of UK citizens returning home as part of the government's repatriation efforts and the damage any infected people on that flight can do is severely limited by the lockdown measures that are already in place in the UK due to the widespread infections already present.

The UK aren't particularly unusual in this regard, I think. Ireland are certainly still allowing flights and even a country like Italy was allowing flights when it introduced its lockdown. Flight restrictions may be effective before the virus is widespread within a country or once internal infections have been brought under control but at the UK's current point I suspect it sounds like a better idea than it actually is.
 
fergieisold said:
Is this because of increased testing? Anybody know?
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I *think* they added in positive results from key worker tests. I'm guessing these were spread over a number of days but got lumped together yesterday and came to 3k+ overall.
 
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