SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

thebelfastboy said:
I hope so.

Difficult to strike the right balance between -
A: factual reporting
B: asking the right questions of the right people
C: unnecessarily creating worry/panic with the public.

It really just seems to me that the reporting ethos has taken a different direction.
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I think his point is that the media in this country functions as state propaganda most of the time and so it is performing that function very effectively.

Nearly 1000 people die and you wouldn’t know it from looking at the front pages of the BBC or Sky or the print press (Guardian excluded).

Honestly the media in this country is a disgrace and most of them don’t deserve to call themselves journalists.

980 people died and the front page of the BBC is highlighting how their fictional hospital drama donated a ventilator. Close it down please.
 
redshaw said:
Will be interesting to see the care home deaths for UK

France has 4599 care home deaths and 8958 hospital deaths. France has about 50% of care home deaths of the hospital deaths.

This article has a snapshot of care home deaths and is suggesting in the UK most deaths are in the hospitals as most people in care homes will be taken to hospital. That might not be the case in France and in Spain care homes were shockingly abandoned. France's lower hospital numbers might just be much less people in care homes taken to hospital and died there instead.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52196978

UK might have care home deaths in 4-10% range of hospital deaths but we''ll have to see in the coming weeks and months how this pans out.

Had France taken more perhaps the hospital deaths would be often in the 800-900 range or even 1000-1200+ range as France has had multiple combined 1300-1400 deaths in 24hr figures.
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France has had zero combined 1300-1400 death in 24 hours. The care homes figures aren't a 24 hour data, it's from March 1st and it's also an overestimation because they basically consider that anyone none tested that died in a care home where someone was tested positive potentially died of covid-19 too. That's why they are not combined.
 
FAO people comparing countries. Two things that most people are getting wrong (which is driving me nuts)

1. Number of cases is MASSIVELY influenced by number of tests. Obviously. You cannot compare cases between two countries that have different testing rates/criteria for testing.

2. Number of deaths or number of ITU admissions is a much better metric for comparison but using “per 100k pop” will be biased in favour of more populous countries. If you throw a burning ember into a large field of straw and a small field of straw, your success at putting that fire out will be the field with the lowest number of blades of straw that get burned. Not the lowest number per 100k of total blades.

Thank you for listening. This has been driving me fecking nuts.

EDIT: Can you call straw blades? Sticks maybe?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
FAO people comparing countries. Two things that most people are getting wrong (which is driving me nuts)

1. Number of cases is MASSIVELY influenced by number of tests. Obviously. You cannot compare cases between two countries that have different testing rates/criteria for testing.

2. Number of deaths or number of ITU admissions is a much better metric for comparison but using “per 100k pop” will be biased in favour of more populous countries. If you throw a burning ember into a large field of straw and a small field of straw, your success at putting that fire out will be the field with the lowest number of blades of straw that get burned. Not the lowest number per 100k of total blades.

Thank you for listening. This has been driving me fecking nuts.
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Haha, too true.
 
Untied said:
I think his point is that the media in this country functions as state propaganda most of the time and so it is performing that function very effectively.

Nearly 1000 people die and you wouldn’t know it from looking at the front pages of the BBC or Sky or the print press (Guardian excluded).

Honestly the media in this country is a disgrace and most of them don’t deserve to call themselves journalists.

980 people died and the front page of the BBC is highlighting how their fictional hospital drama donated a ventilator. Close it down please.
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I’m not a massive fan of the BBC but what exactly do you want them to do? Have a massive countdown of deaths at the top of their page? If they constantly throw the number of deaths on the front page that will cause mass hysteria and likely start panic buying again.

Maybe they could report more on what is happening in hospital but we already know there isn’t enough staff, enough PPE, enough ventilators, enough testing kits. It’s all been reported for weeks.
 
Am I right in thinking that as yet there is not a single reported case of anybody who has recovered from the virus becoming reinfected anywhere in the world?

@Arruda
 
Grinner said:
Am I right in thinking that as yet there is not a single reported case of anybody who has recovered from the virus becoming reinfected anywhere in the world?

@Arruda
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There have been several cases of people testing positive after testing negative. Jury’s out on whether they were reinfected. Could be that infection never cleared and negative test was false.
 
Feed Me said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52252470

I think it’s disgraceful that Matt Hancunt was allowed to so obviously deflect onto PL footballers and everyone fell for it hook line and sinker.

When will the UK media start to hold the government properly to account? We make up around 10% of global deaths ffs.
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He was directly asked his own opinion about footballers. Maybe it would be better to be slating the journo for asking such an inflammatory question? As ive pointed out before, some of those questions are inane. The press haveva responsibility through this crisis to offer accurate information in a way that does not panic people ( for example, i believe a lot of panic buying was in part fuelled by poor reporting at the start.)
 
DomesticTadpole said:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coro...y-hopes/ar-BB12rSb0?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=ACERDHP17
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However the KCDC's director, Jeong Eun-kyeong, raised the possibility that the virus may have been “reactivated” in people, rather than the patients being re-infected.

False test results could also be at fault, other experts said, or remnants of the virus could still be in patients’ systems without being infectious or posing a risk of danger to the host or others.

“There are different interpretations and many variables,” said Jung Ki-suck, professor of pulmonary medicine at Hallym University Sacred Heart Hospital.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There have been several cases of people testing positive after testing negative. Jury’s out on whether they were reinfected. Could be that infection never cleared and negative test was false.
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Right, that's what I thought. The data as yet is unreliable.

Surely if this becomes a reality then it's game over and we should just open everything up and let it run it's course?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
However the KCDC's director, Jeong Eun-kyeong, raised the possibility that the virus may have been “reactivated” in people, rather than the patients being re-infected.

False test results could also be at fault, other experts said, or remnants of the virus could still be in patients’ systems without being infectious or posing a risk of danger to the host or others.

“There are different interpretations and many variables,” said Jung Ki-suck, professor of pulmonary medicine at Hallym University Sacred Heart Hospital.
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Thing is nobody knows. We have not had a situation like this before. It is literally going to be wait and see what happens. Countries need to be sharing their information and some might not be. This isn't some secret development of a nuclear bomb, it is a disease that could be as deadly.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
FAO people comparing countries. Two things that most people are getting wrong (which is driving me nuts)

1. Number of cases is MASSIVELY influenced by number of tests. Obviously. You cannot compare cases between two countries that have different testing rates/criteria for testing.

2. Number of deaths or number of ITU admissions is a much better metric for comparison but using “per 100k pop” will be biased in favour of more populous countries. If you throw a burning ember into a large field of straw and a small field of straw, your success at putting that fire out will be the field with the lowest number of blades of straw that get burned. Not the lowest number per 100k of total blades.

Thank you for listening. This has been driving me fecking nuts.

EDIT: Can you call straw blades? Sticks maybe?
Click to expand...
Very true mainly. Small additional point about 2: in bigger countries there are more embers to begin with, as many of the cases early on came from travelling to most infected regions.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
FAO people comparing countries. Two things that most people are getting wrong (which is driving me nuts)

1. Number of cases is MASSIVELY influenced by number of tests. Obviously. You cannot compare cases between two countries that have different testing rates/criteria for testing.

2. Number of deaths or number of ITU admissions is a much better metric for comparison but using “per 100k pop” will be biased in favour of more populous countries. If you throw a burning ember into a large field of straw and a small field of straw, your success at putting that fire out will be the field with the lowest number of blades of straw that get burned. Not the lowest number per 100k of total blades.

Thank you for listening. This has been driving me fecking nuts.

EDIT: Can you call straw blades? Sticks maybe?
Click to expand...
Not to mention the fact that many of the bigger-country epidemics will have been seeded by multiple embers spread out all over the field.

This is obviously going to be more evident in countries that have large tourist industries centred around primate cities (I'm thinking of London and Paris in particular). After a certain point, it turns into a game of whack-a-mole.
 
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Josep Dowling said:
I’m not a massive fan of the BBC but what exactly do you want them to do? Have a massive countdown of deaths at the top of their page? If they constantly throw the number of deaths on the front page that will cause mass hysteria and likely start panic buying again.

Maybe they could report more on what is happening in hospital but we already know there isn’t enough staff, enough PPE, enough ventilators, enough testing kits. It’s all been reported for weeks.
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Be more challenging to the narrative put out by the government.

Nurses are wearing bin bags, I've had to drive 90 miles every other week to screwfix to get disposable FFP3 masks . This isn't because we are wasting PPE, we don't have any. Visors are being sought by ourselves, gowns are being bought on ebay/elsewhere. Yet we are being told today that NHS staff are dying from community transmission and misusing/overusing PPE. That's scandalous.

Currently the Resus council who give medics and NHS staff certification are saying that we need higher forms of PPE due to CPR being aersol generating but public health england guidance disagrees and trusts are siding with PHE despite the evidence and science provided from the internal liaison committee on resuscitation
https://www.resus.org.uk/media/stat...-resuscitation/statement-on-phe-ppe-guidance/

COVID patients on ward have a high risk of needing CPR but doctors are being told to resuscitate them ignoring the guidance from the very organisation who certify us for that procedure and potentially risk getting infection themselves. That's one of many many points of contention. Doctors are currently muzzled from talking about this openly due to threats from managers.

Doctors have been bombarding media channels regarding this scandal and trying to get the media to provide the counter narrative that will let people get a better picture of what's happening on the ground rather than the current situation where the government gets to spew their propaganda unchallenged.
 
massi83 said:
Very true mainly. Small additional point about 2: in bigger countries there are more embers to begin with, as many of the cases early on came from travelling to most infected regions.
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Yeah was thinking you could do “deaths per international” airport. But you’d also need to factor road/ferry links etc. Basically gets very fecking complicated!
 
Dante said:
Not to mention the fact that many of bigger-country pandemics will have been seeded by multiple embers spread out all over the field.

This is obviously going to be more evident in countries that have large tourist industries centred around primate cities (I'm thinking of London and Paris in particular). After a certain point, it turns into a game of whack-a-mole.
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It’s definitely a tougher battle in cities like London, Paris or NYC. Although you could argue these are known factors which should influence government response. Shut down harder and earlier in known tinderkegs for infection. It certainly looks bad that the people in charge of countries that have mega-cities like London and New York were relatively laid back in their approach early on. Definitely a factor in their horrendous death tolls.
 
JPRouve said:
France has had zero combined 1300-1400 death in 24 hours. The care homes figures aren't a 24 hour data, it's from March 1st and it's also an overestimation because they basically consider that anyone none tested that died in a care home where someone was tested positive potentially died of covid-19 too. That's why they are not combined.
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France has been adding care home deaths each day bar one since 2nd of April, obviously early on it's back dated, it's up to 4500+ now, probably more alarming if it's still in March. I never said France combine them, the point was taken in combination regarding another point with some overestimated data in the UK from March.

You brought up 24hr talking about UK and comparing. None of the data is 24hr and varies from 1-4 weeks either hospital or care homes. UK the other day at 900+ deaths actually went back to March, this will go for hospital and care figures homes for every country. If it's the case less people in care homes are taken to hospital then in late March we might've seen a peak of 900 in France.
 
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Wolverine said:
Be more challenging to the narrative put out by the government.

Nurses are wearing bin bags, I've had to drive 90 miles every other week to screwfix to get disposable FFP3 masks . This isn't because we are wasting PPE, we don't have any. Visors are being sought by ourselves, gowns are being bought on ebay/elsewhere. Yet we are being told today that NHS staff are dying from community transmission and misusing/overusing PPE. That's scandalous.

Currently the Resus council who give medics and NHS staff certification are saying that we need higher forms of PPE due to CPR being aersol generating but public health england guidance disagrees and trusts are siding with PHE despite the evidence and science provided from the internal liaison committee on resuscitation
https://www.resus.org.uk/media/stat...-resuscitation/statement-on-phe-ppe-guidance/

COVID patients on ward have a high risk of needing CPR but doctors are being told to resuscitate them ignoring the guidance from the very organisation who certify us for that procedure and potentially risk getting infection themselves. That's one of many many points of contention. Doctors are currently muzzled from talking about this openly due to threats from managers.

Doctors have been bombarding media channels regarding this scandal and trying to get the media to provide the counter narrative that will let people get a better picture of what's happening on the ground rather than the current situation where the government gets to spew their propaganda unchallenged.
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Totally agree.

I expect this of the BBC because they're basically stenographers and just repeat the party line as told. Sky news and C4 news who did such a stellar job with Brexit are now falling in line.

You only have to look at the reporting of Wuhan and Italy compared to the domestic issue to understand they're wilfully under reporting. They're probably scared of what the government will do if they actually did their job.
 
worldgonemad said:
He was directly asked his own opinion about footballers. Maybe it would be better to be slating the journo for asking such an inflammatory question? As ive pointed out before, some of those questions are inane. The press haveva responsibility through this crisis to offer accurate information in a way that does not panic people ( for example, i believe a lot of panic buying was in part fuelled by poor reporting at the start.)
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Fair point. That said, he could have easily given a diplomatic response which would have been the correct course of action in this case. Politicians will always be happy to lay the blame elsewhere. In any case, Hancock will have known the question was coming.
 
Grinner said:
What's wrong with nurses wearing binbags if they work? Why not adapt what we have?
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Other than the obvious of them not been apron shaped then I have to admit I asked the same question, likewise could the visors not be sanitised and reused (if they're not already). It's not ideal but the best of bad job atm.
 
Grinner said:
What's wrong with nurses wearing binbags if they work? Why not adapt what we have?
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Shows great initiative by the nurses but bin bags are a poor substitute for the real thing. Because they’re non absorbent/non breathable they’ll carry the virus on them much longer and they must be horribly grim and sweaty to wear.
 
Feed Me said:
Fair point. That said, he could have easily given a diplomatic response which would have been the correct course of action in this case. Politicians will always be happy to lay the blame elsewhere. In any case, Hancock will have known the question was coming.
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I, m not certain that they are briefed what the questions will be. Still, its up to the journos to ask relevant questions. Asking an opinion of someone is always a loaded trap when a journo asks in my opinion.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
Other than the obvious of them not been apron shaped then I have to admit I asked the same question, likewise could the visors not be sanitised and reused (if they're not already). It's not ideal but the best of bad job atm.
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The evidence base that public health england have cited for recommending aprons is based on incomparable influenza pandemics
We know from covid-19 related research from medics that have used higher forms of PPE (e.g. coveralls) that infection rates and morality is much much less for healthcare workers.

But coveralls, FFP3 masks and the type of PPE recommended for aerosol generating procedures by PHE are more expensive + difficult to source compared to existing supply of aprons, surgical masks. Its a matter of us not just catching infection but with our exposed arms etc during close contacts with patients on covid wards we are acting as super spreaders in addition to risk to our own lives.
 
worldgonemad said:
I, m not certain that they are briefed what the questions will be. Still, its up to the journos to ask relevant questions. Asking an opinion of someone is always a loaded trap when a journo asks in my opinion.
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You make a fair point. As discussed earlier in the thread, the media has been fecking useless in holding the authorities to account. More interested in grandstanding when the mic is put under their nose instead of asking a pertinent question.
 
redshaw said:
France has been adding care home deaths each day bar one since 2nd of April, obviously early on it's back dated, it's up to 4500+ now, probably more alarming if it's still in March. I never said France combine them, the point was taken in combination regarding another point.

You brought up 24hr talking about UK and comparing. None of the data is 24hr and varies from 1-4 weeks either hospital or care homes. UK the other day at 900+ deaths actually went back to March, this will go for hospital and care figures homes for every country. If it's the case less people in care homes are taken to hospital then in late March we might've seen a peak of 900 in France.
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Do you know of any website that provides the uncombined figures for the UK?
 
Apologises if already posted, trying to spend too much time in here.



This type of media strategy from the government is absolutely fecking disgusting. Trying to plant the seeds to divert blame. Just shameful
 
redshaw said:
France has been adding care home deaths each day bar one since 2nd of April, obviously early on it's back dated, it's up to 4500+ now, probably more alarming if it's still in March. I never said France combine them, the point was taken in combination regarding another point.

You brought up 24hr talking about UK and comparing. None of the data is 24hr and varies from 1-4 weeks either hospital or care homes. UK the other day at 900+ deaths actually went back to March, this will go for hospital and care figures homes for every country. If it's the case less people in care homes are taken to hospital then in late March we might've seen a peak of 900 in France.
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I argued the 1300-1400, 900 is totally reasonable but you went with a figure that has no reality when you somehow went to +1300. As for the bolded point where does that come from?
 
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