SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Brwned said:
The primary opposition to face masks is essentially about compliance:



So as I understand it the major worry is about increased exposure to the virus, because people let it get under their masks when they take it off improperly or wear it inappropriately (trapping it at close quarters).

For the sick people it doesn't matter if they remove things improperly and the virus gets under their mask since they're already infected. Its function is primarily to prevent the virus spreading when you cough or sneeze. That's just a less onerous task for people as it only requires them to have the mask covering both their nose and mouth, without thinking about touching their face too often, taking it off properly.

There's still some increased risks that come from wearing a mask when sick, especially for those not used to it. They might wear it improperly and get complacent when coughing or sneezing, spreading it more carelessly, or they might take it off and pass on the infection to someone else. But on balance the amount of times it stops the spread by trapping the cough / sneeze makes it beneficial in the vast majority of cases.

For the healthy people the major unknown is how many people would misuse it and in which ways, because the cost / benefits aren't so firmly weighted in favour even when it's used perfectly. When it's used imperfectly, which they seem to worry would be often, it increases the number of risky behaviours while offering relatively little protection (if it's just the surgical masks).
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Ah, thank you, that does make sense.
 
zing said:
Dumb question - why would that be the case? The particles are the same size regardless of what direction they're coming in.
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There is a range of particle and droplet sizes.

Buster15 said:
Indeed.
And the latest research shows that a cough pushes out droplets for up to 4m.
And a sneeze up to 8m.

I have seen many pictures of face masks which do not fit tightly around the side of the face, at the cheeks.

As soon as the wearer breaths in, that is exactly where the air will be drawn in.
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Yes, the author of that paper was a bit sly I thought though. The group already published work based on that experiment and model several years ago in the Journal of Fluid Mechanics (JFM), one of the top tier papers for this field. The novelty of the latest work seems to be that they repeated an experiment and obtained the maximum distance it spread - although it is not clear whether they already had this data before, I'd need to read the older paper in more detail. It is certainly interesting work, but similar physics has already been carried out in engineering and those studies were far more detailed, where individual droplet size and velocity have been measured at instantaneous points in time.
 
Personally I was clapping for footballers tonight
 
zing said:
Dumb question - why would that be the case? The particles are the same size regardless of what direction they're coming in.
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That's my point! Maybe I didn't word it well, but the whole guidance is confused and contradictory.
 
Virgil said:
These replies illustrate my view perfectly. Now who is right and who is wrong. The worry is that across the world the experts have not adopted a unified view so how the deuce are the rest of us supposed to sort the wheat from the chaff
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There is complete agreement that if you wear the appropriate mask correctly, then you will not inhale droplets which contain the virus, and not exhale the droplets if you are infected.

The only debates seem to be about how significant is the transmission of the virus via coughing/sneezing and secondly the practicality/issues of the general public each being issued a mask.
 
Arruda said:
I've seen tissue masks or covers being unadvised by pneumologists. Arguably the virus can easily be breathed in through them (too large pores) so even if someone coughs into you you can still "suction it", plus they will provide a wet and warm environment that can prolong the survival.of the virus.

Mind you this is not based on evidence, it's merely their conjecture.



It's not bollocks. But if they existed in enough numbers it would make sense to advise it's use and make campaigns teaching how to use it, just like they do with hand washing.
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The most obvious justification I’ve heard for wearing them is they stop infected (possibly asymptomatic) people spewing droplets all over the place when they talk, sneeze, cough. Which makes sense to me. Even the crappiest, flimsy mask will block large droplets flying out of someone’s mouth or nose. Most of them anyway. Obviously only works if everyone wears them when they leave the house.
 
0le said:
There is a range of particle and droplet sizes.



Yes, the author of that paper was a bit sly I thought though. The group already published work based on that experiment and model several years ago in the Journal of Fluid Mechanics (JFM), one of the top tier papers for this field. The novelty of the latest work seems to be that they repeated an experiment and obtained the maximum distance it spread - although it is not clear whether they already had this data before, I'd need to read the older paper in more detail. It is certainly interesting work, but similar physics has already been carried out in engineering and those studies were far more detailed, where individual droplet size and velocity have been measured at instantaneous points in time.
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It was a high speed video I saw shown on the BBC news.
The smallest droplets going the furthest.
I had the impression it was done by the WHO.
 
0le said:
It depends on the seal, see below:



When you breathe in or out, if there is a good seal between the mask and your face, the air flow will be forced to go through the filter element. My understanding is that this will slow down the air sufficiently for the particles/droplets to become trapped.

Certainly without a good quality seal, you will inhale and exhale some air through gaps in the seal region, rather than through the filter element. High density (compared to air) particles/droplets which are ~1 micron (typically) and are already suspended in the air are excellent at following the air flow. There is no debate about this, it is well known that such particles/droplets, once suspended, follow air motion extremely well. So if there are any gaps in the seal, there is a risk you can inhale them, and also a risk you can exhale back into the atmosphere.

If you want to wear the mask as a means of preventing others from becoming infected, this is risky, at least for some masks. As the filter blocks particles/droplets, it can become more difficult to breathe through because the filter "clogs up". This idea that you can "clean" the disposable masks (and therefore allow you to reuse them) may not be true. I don't know how the masks are designed, but I believe the filter element of some of the masks may just be layers of fabric, so you may be able to clean the outer layer well enough but not the inside layers.

This idea that you "don't touch your face" makes sense in theory but in practice, you will still scratch an itch, rub your eyes (for half masks) and risk removing the mask incorrectly and therefore touching your face. You should not be using a mask for the sole intention to avoid touching your face. If this is someones motive, they are much better off just wearing latex/nitrile gloves.
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Cheers for the detailed answer. Seems difficult to get a perfect seal on a mask, I guess if they catch/block even a single particle it's something.

M
 
Rado_N said:
Because making an enemy of footballers will take some focus off the disastrous job the government have done on the whole.
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Yes.
Anyone but themselves.
And they know that millions of gullible people will focus on PL footballers.

A complete distraction. As usual...
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Considering how unsanitary the conditions are that they live in and how closely they live I would expect them to have a better immune system. They are very heavy smokers though, which is going to have an effect definitely.
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I pray everyday for this country tbh, either a miracle happens or a real carnage, nothing in between
 
Sweet Square said:


Tories going into full blame Paul Pogba mode it seems.
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Not defending the Tories in any way but nice to see that socialist principles do not extend to overpaid footballers when non playing members of staff in some PL clubs are already being put on furlough. I suppose next you will be saying that someone like Branson is quite entitled to protect his own wealth and put the burden of assisting his staff onto the government.

Of course it was a shallow remark for Hancock to say but he was quite right to say it. Anyone with a great deal of wealth should be extending a helping hand to those in real need.
 
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Jacko21 said:
All the neighbours out again!
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I remember a lad when young who just had to be around people. He could not live without talking to people. So every day he would be over at my house in the summer. I was fed up with him coming over all the time.

Some people just go mad if they are not out and about.

I love being alone in contrast.
 
Fiskey said:
VAT is a horrible tax (apart from its easy to collect), I hope not. Maybe a chance for a government to have a proper look at wealth taxes, even if initially on a one off basis. To be honest with the oil price crashing and more people not driving I don't know why Rishi hasn't stuck 10p a litre on the price of fuel for the next year.
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I can definitely see it going up to 25%.
 
My sister got briefed today on how to prioritise patients for ventilators and all round help. She's in bits.

I mean I won't go into details as we can all guess, but feck me the people who still don't think this is a real bad situation....
 
Redlambs said:
My sister got briefed today on how to prioritise patients for ventilators and all round help. She's in bits.

I mean I won't go into details as we can all guess, but feck me the people who still don't think this is a real bad situation....
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Where does she work?
 
Buster15 said:
Yes.
Anyone but themselves.
And they know that millions of gullible people will focus on PL footballers.

A complete distraction. As usual...
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Not quite sure that's the only issue to be honest. More or less as soon as the football was suspended, none playing staff, caterers etc were left without income, while footballers and management still took full salary. Its been heavily debated over the last few weeks on talksport that the clubs have not been acting morally in respects to the two tier treatment. The pfa and the fa have been as usual dragging their heels in regards to the situation which has led to individual managers and players having to take the lead rather than be led by the club.
Hancock was asked his opinion about it and gave his answer, i see nothing political about that
 
Hugh Jass said:
I remember a lad when young who just had to be around people. He could not live without talking to people. So every day he would be over at my house in the summer. I was fed up with him coming over all the time.

Some people just go mad if they are not out and about.

I love being alone in contrast.
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Introverts and Extroverts. It’s about where you get your energy from.

Some recharge by being sociable. Others recharge by being alone.

Sadly, some people aren’t always very forgiving of the latter.
 
Redlambs said:
A major hospital in East London. She's a head nurse and basically in charge of her particular unit.

What's also grim is they are a major trauma unit, but there's no testing at all and they have to treat every patient as if they have the virus.
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Sorry to hear it, i think it shows just how close the peak is coming for London. Could be over the weekend or early Monday.
 
Public health England have today once again changed their guidelines for PPE . It's embarrassing how so many changes keep happening and a lot of it seems to be resource based
 
Redlambs said:
My sister got briefed today on how to prioritise patients for ventilators and all round help. She's in bits.

I mean I won't go into details as we can all guess, but feck me the people who still don't think this is a real bad situation....
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Your sister has my sympathy. I had to have a similar conversation with my wife. It wasn’t easy.
 
Peru quarantine 3.

Curfew now extended from 6pm to 5am.

Also, only 1 man from house allowed out on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

1 woman per household allowed out Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

Nobody allowed out on a Sunday.
 
horsechoker said:
If you know who has the virus and who hasn't then you isolate those who do and thus prevent more people getting infected. A lot of people are asymptomatic so they could be spreading the virus without knowing, if you do know you're infected then you know to take measures which prevent others getting the virus.
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What you are saying is great in theory but not sure how it works in a practical way specially with the country being in a lockdown anyway . If I got tested negative today and met you in the supermarket in the evening and you tested positive tomorrow then not sure how testing made any difference
 
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