This is the issue. The answer is obvious, but the government have left it up to the people. That's fine but in the countries that are doing well (some of them with the experience of previous viruses) governments have made this decision for them. I'm not saying that's right, but there's a huge difference and that difference shows in number of cases in every country.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
This is the issue. The answer is obvious, but the government have left it up to the people. That's fine but in the countries that are doing well (some of them with the experience of previous viruses) governments have made this decision for them. I'm not saying that's right, but there's a huge difference and that difference shows in number of cases in every country.
Im far from a cheerleader. I’d have had the population locked down ages ago and schools closed before Christmas. There would be no mixed messages from me. My point was only that I see people flouting social sensibilities every day and none of them look like Boris Johnson. It’s a lazy cop out.
Are you in an area where those activities are legal? It's fair to say the subsequent waves have been caused by legal activity, some of which the experts already warned the government about.
If your argument is the government shouldn't be blamed for not legalising what people should be doing anyway It's a poor argument isn't it? You have to be very unaware to not recognise the restrictions or lack of them drive behaviours because some take their cue from briefings.
What's the governments excuse exactly? They couldn't be arsed?
Exactly! The government’s failure is leaving it up to people and it is the people’s failure to be sensible. If I can see my government is saying something is ok, when I know it’s not, does that mean I have to do it?
I should have just posted what I did without quoting you as it was addressing the issue in general and not disputing anything you were saying. Sorry for giving that impression.
I would imagine my area will go up to tier 4 tomorrow and I’m pretty sure the police could have done some good here today.
I think people are mistaking my position with that of someone who is pro government. Not true. I’ve disagreed with a lot of their actions.
Bit like I said earlier, all of us, in countless countries have known what we’re dealing with for months. Why aren’t people behaving accordingly. It isn’t just the government’s fault.
Sorry, but did you actually watch the video you posted?
The police are doing their part, protecting the public I assume. Telling everyone they can only exercise from their home.
But can anyone actually tell me where it says your exercise has to be from your home address? Edit - @F-Red rightly points out this isn't allowed in Wales.
I agree that you aren't meant to leave your Tier... but does your exercise have to be from your home address? Everyone the BBC interviewed had a lovely welsh accent.
Where does it say that?
Is this not this all over again?
Which was widely criticised
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/27/police-acknowledge-confusion-over-uk-lockdown-rules
As that old welsh fellow said:
"If you go into your local shop, there are more people there than there are on this mountain today."
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So we've had two answers so far.
One with a source (the government website) saying that I can go for a cycle with my mate.
One without a source (but saying the government has been clear on their message) saying that I cannot go for a cycle.
That is a government failure though and one that some countries addressed when infection rate was low and have managed to keep low due to their measures. It's difficult to blame UK people for that when it's no different in the UK to worldwide and the only successful countries have been those with strict measures in place.
It's just a statement of fact, a minority will do whatever they can get away with as legal. It's the governments job to know that and put in controls to limit the impacts.
That's as true of lockdown restrictions as speeding laws. If the government doubled all speed limits tomorrow saying just drive carefully and yet car deaths still went up It's the government's fault on the macro level which is their primary role.
Would reckless drivers to be to blame for incidences? Yes
Would that absolve the government of careless oversight? No, a trend is a trend.
I said the message had been clear on how the virus is spread and what we can and should do to reduce the spread. That’s all I need to know and I’ve known that since March. I’ve not been privy to any more info that the rest of the population.
Deflecting away from the shambles of the government by creating hypothetical scenarios about people who were never elected is just peak bonkers.
As I've stated before in this thread - the actions of the government are appalling and they should be held totally accountable for the mess the U.K is in. We are an island, with the ability to isolate from the rest of the world efficiently. The half hearted approach has affected millions including myself.
Unfortunately I guess modern totalitarian states would prevail much more efficiently in such scenarios.
Boris was a shabby London mayor and even shabbier prime minister.
Unfortunately I guess modern totalitarian states would prevail much more efficiently in such scenarios.
Boris was a shabby London mayor and even shabbier prime minister.
There`s also a lot of people looking at ways of getting round restrictions as soon as they are made as if it is some kind of a game . I live in North Wales and when the firebreak was ending here and England was going into lockdown I had a mate wanted to come and stay with his wife and 4 kids cos he could have gone out if he came to Wales . I told him to get fecked as we have been avoiding contact with other people as my wife is a carer looking after elderly and vulnerable people and I also look after my in laws in their 80s . I have hardly seen anyone this year as I have had to look after my in laws , father in law has got alzheimers and you can`t take him out . My next door neighbour has had family staying over this last week, visitors every day loads of people in and out of his house and is a recently retired RAF flight instructor , he is not confused by guidelines he just doesn`t give a feck .
Apart from the word totally I agree with this post ... totally.
Even that has changed. Although that actually isn't the government's fault.
Evidence for virus being airbourne
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-53329946
Government considering advising to keep windows open (which everyone at work was sick of me banging on about before the first lockdown)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-in-effort-to-curb-covid-19-poor-ventilation
Government urge people to keep windows open.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...e-of-ventilation-to-reduce-spread-of-covid-19
There was also stuff about not sitting "face on" with someone else, although that has largely disappeared now that we can't meet up with anyone.
Im not deflecting at all. It was a legitimate question as people are blaming the government for the entirety of the mess were in and it’s just wrong.
It was a whataboutism but a necessary one when people are shielding the population from blame and heaping it solely on the doorstep of no10. Would we actually be doing much better under any other government
And you'll find no disagreement that some people are selfish (unfortunate failure of proofreading in that post you replied to aside).
At every stage however, that selfishness has been massively less important than shoddy messaging, baffling policy, incompetent delays, ideological warring, and attempts to protect their own. If you're not here to defend the government on that then perhaps your own messaging needs improvement!
Coming back to that argument about primary schools again
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1229/1186804-covid19-ireland/
@Pogue Mahone what do you reckon?
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1229/1186804-covid19-ireland/
@Pogue Mahone what do you reckon?
Which, on the subject, is another area where the government is badly letting people down. The three word slogan is still 'Hands', 'Face', 'Space'. Not 'don't sit in unventilated rooms you idiots'.
I learned back in March that I can get infected by breathing it in, touching infectious surfaces, not cleaning my hands, getting too close to people, being in crowded spaces are all good ways of catching Covid. That’s all I’ve needed to know. I see people every day that somehow either don’t know this or ignore it.
Did any of the give nations of Britain and Ireland do anything like this two week lockdown (including shutting schools)
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ckdown-could-save-thousands-of-lives-12103957
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4038
I know a NI had that two week lock down, but schools were still open?
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ckdown-could-save-thousands-of-lives-12103957
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4038
I know a NI had that two week lock down, but schools were still open?
Has there been substantial evidence that proves there's a significant (realistic) risk you can even infect eachother let alone cause an outbreak?
If the answer is no then you absolutely should go for it, regardless of tier.
You're well informed and you have been doing what me and other people have been doing which is research and using your intelligence. Some other people take what the government say literally and had groups of people on Christmas Day. Other people flout those rules directly.
I understand what you're saying, but the proof is in the numbers and unfortunately the only countries with very low figures are those that have enforceable strict measures in place. I really wish that wasn't the case and doing that has problems of its own.
There is a very realistic risk as particles and aerosol infection can clearly occur. It is just the risk is far higher indoors. If it is legal then if you go the greater the distance between you the lower the risk.
Chicken and egg, geebs. It’s growing alarmingly everywhere, so would expect the same in schools. Be interesting to see if school holidays take the edge off this surge. I suspect not. Half term made no difference whatsoever.
I think, when road cycling, the cyclist in front could definitely splash the cyclist behind with water from his water bottle by squirting it forwards (if that makes sense). By that logic, yeah cyclists are breathing each other's aerosol particles.
But we exclusively do mountain biking which has lots of curves and difficult sections that require a larger gap between riders. So I think that the chance there is close to zero.
Still, social contact and exercise are important in their own right. I would put both as a very high priority, even as the rest of society gets shut down (work, etc). The risk of exposure that one has when running or cycling with a friend I think is probably worth taking. (Especially when compared to, say, running by yourself when a load of other people are doing the same thing anyway).
Others may disagree.
For me this is nothing to do with parties, Corbyn or Starker probably wouldn't have done better and Corbyn certainly would never have won my vote.
However, this government has been so unclear with messaging that it undermines the importance of the rules. You can't on the one hand claim every life matters and we must follow the rules and then on the other defend you aid for outright breaking the rules and then say the rules can be all be scrapped for Christmas, then late in the day changing you mind again.
If the rules over winter had remained as they were in November, sure people wouldn't have been happy but I guarantee compliance would be higher.
University's are also a case in point. For the vast majority of courses online learning would be absolutely fine, but the powers that be want to protect the 'student experience' and ultimately justify the absurd tuition fees so they plough on even though it is probably the single biggest hotspot alongside secondary schools.
The irony is in flip flopping as much as they are they are doing far more harm to both health and the economy.
I'm sure a lot of Universities did move a lot of teaching online by themselves, even if the government flip-flopped on this too.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/english-universities-told-move-teaching-online-9-december
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/uk-university-coronavirus-outbreaks-online-learning-a4565036.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52647601
Still, I think it would have been very helpful if there had been proper guidance. If they had said "aim to allow all courses to be 90% online, to allow students to stay at home (i.e even their family home).
Indeed, another very obvious and utterly avoidable failure of the government. If we really want to follow it through, a failure of the government going all the way back to Cameron and the broken tuition fee model.
That single, anecdotal twitter screenshot is very convincing.
I think this pandemic has highlighted the need for compotent, consistent government and media communications. This is a key element in decision making for any personal responsibility and enables compliance from a higher percentage of the population.
I don't know about the reporting elsewhere.. but the news channels dont have much else to talk about.. so every little story is presented as a huge deal.
There is a lot of conflicting , over the top reporting going on.. We have had a dozen vaccines ready for imminent launch over the last 5 months.
Quite a few (mostly older) people I know basically take the official government stand as the way to go because there are daily conflicting stories on TV ..
A clear message from the government is very important.. I don't understand how anyone can argue against that.. Not doing so is a big failure .
There is a lot of conflicting , over the top reporting going on.. We have had a dozen vaccines ready for imminent launch over the last 5 months.
Quite a few (mostly older) people I know basically take the official government stand as the way to go because there are daily conflicting stories on TV ..
A clear message from the government is very important.. I don't understand how anyone can argue against that.. Not doing so is a big failure .
Don't forget that we're slowly moving into Phase 4 of the Dipshit Parade - people walking around without masks saying "it's fine, I'VE had the vaccine."
Two weeks before the holidays we got a text from the school saying one of our kid's classes was going to be WFH for a week because someone in his class had tested positive for Covid. BUT they were expected in the following week for the last two days. We then got a call the next morning asking why his sister wasn't in school and why I had left them a message saying neither wouldn't be back until after the holidays.
I told them that it was mental for them to expect us to send him to school for the last two days in a week's time when his class might be rife with cases, and it was downright stupid to think that we would be sending his sister, who could possibly have it if he had been infected in his class, so that she could possibly spread it to her class as well.
Something to look forward to, along with “I know whats best for my family and we wont be getting vaccinated its too risky.”
As of December 23rd... (can’t wait till we go back to school right as the Christmas wave hits)
Gotta say, I’m shocked there’s any ‘Mediums’ on there.As of December 23rd... (can’t wait till we go back to school right as the Christmas wave hits)