SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[groovyalbert]

It's a piss take at this point. Special pleading bs in regards to London. "we're tier 2 because we're London" kind of argument.

But I don't think our hospitals here are at the point where they need extreme protection. Could be wrong, however.

It will have been an economic decision. London's the UK's only international hub and with Brexit looming and trade negotiations on-going, it needs to be working.

 

[Tibs]

Tier 3 - but this still is a massive change and loosening with all non-essential retail and gyms reopening.

 

[Tibs]

Andy Burnham will be fuming somewhere

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

But I don't think our hospitals here are at the point where they need extreme protection. Could be wrong, however.

It will have been an economic decision. London's the UK's only international hub and with Brexit looming and trade negotiations on-going, it needs to be working.

and clearly that’s a key consideration, and rightly so. Perhaps transparency is the issue.

I’ve had recent conversations with people in Newcastle and Glasgow who are saying Boone is taking any notice of the restrictions in national lockdown. So why would we think this is going to change.

part fatigue clearly, but as the days go on, less and less people, where ever they are are adhering to the rules - or in fact the spirit of the rules, I.e pushing as far as legally allowed to.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Andy Burnham will be fuming somewhere

Burnham agrees with it.

"We've got the fastest fall going on in cases at the moment, but there is a big but I'm afraid - and the big but is our cases are still quite a lot higher than the rest of England," he said.

"So we're coming down quickly, we're going in the right direction, but if I just look at all the evidence and take the evidence alone, the evidence points into tier three."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-55082980 (12.37)

 

[Ananke]

I think for me where it’s rather annoying is the transparency that’s not given. London is clearly being given special treatment. Yes, Greater Manchester as a whole has more cases per 100,000. It’s fall rate is massive in comparison to London’s.

You’d think anything that’s ‘rising’ should be nipped in the bud ASAP. And especially as London rates per 100k still aren’t anything to brag about. Also, not long ago it was all about the R rate, depending what the R rate was at would depend on the lockdown tiers implemented. These are the estimated figures from NHS England:

Region	R	Growth rate % per day
England	1.0-1.1	0 to +2
East of England	1.0-1.3	+1 to +4
London	1.0-1.2	0 to +3
Midlands	1.0-1.2	+1 to +3
North East and Yorkshire	1.0-1.1	0 to +2
North West	0.8-1.0	-3 to 0
South East	1.1-1.3	+1 to +4
South West	1.0-1.3	+1 to +4

So, does the R rate not have any determining factor in the Tier regions go into?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

% changes can be misleading. If cases low to begin with a small absolute increase can translate into a big % increase.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Is there justification for London to be in tier 3?

personally I think this drive towards allowing so many people to mix at Christmas is a massive mistake.

really do not see the big deal in having a small Christmas for one year. This 5 day mixing, will get out of control and be the most damaging period of the entire year.

it's simply that us British people are spoilt and have would have a massive hissy fit if they weren't allowed to have family Christmas.

We will also have a hissy fit afterwards when we have to be lockdown again, will blame everyone else for the fact that it costs peoples lives and jobs.

The biggest thing i'm taking away from this pandemic is that we are a country of overly entitled *****

 

[Dave_MUFC]

Pretty much no change then if you're in Tier 3 from next week?

You'll be able to get a haircut, play sports, and go clothes shopping, is about it.

 

[Dave_MUFC]

it's simply that us British people are spoilt and have would have a massive hissy fit if they weren't allowed to have family Christmas.

We will also have a hissy fit afterwards when we have to be lockdown again, will blame everyone else for the fact that it costs peoples lives and jobs.

The biggest thing i'm taking away from this pandemic is that we are a country of overly entitled *****

Can't agree more with this.

The fact that what we have here is called a "lockdown" is ridiculous in itself, and people acting as if all their rights have been taken away and they can't do anything.

Go and see the rest of Europe, with police giving fines for not wearing masks on the streets, enforcing country wide curfews etc. Places like Germany staying in lockdown until at least 20th December.

The elitism of people in this country is ridiculous, and it is understandable why the rest of Europe sees us as these ignorant pigs.

 

[Brwned]

it's simply that us British people are spoilt and have would have a massive hissy fit if they weren't allowed to have family Christmas.

We will also have a hissy fit afterwards when we have to be lockdown again, will blame everyone else for the fact that it costs peoples lives and jobs.

The biggest thing i'm taking away from this pandemic is that we are a country of overly entitled *****

Slight problem with that theory: it is not just the UK government relaxing restrictions for the holidays

 

[One Night Only]

I think for me where it’s rather annoying is the transparency that’s not given. London is clearly being given special treatment. Yes, Greater Manchester as a whole has more cases per 100,000. It’s fall rate is massive in comparison to London’s.

You’d think anything that’s ‘rising’ should be nipped in the bud ASAP. And especially as London rates per 100k still aren’t anything to brag about. Also, not long ago it was all about the R rate, depending what the R rate was at would depend on the lockdown tiers implemented. These are the estimated figures from NHS England:

Region	R	Growth rate % per day
England	1.0-1.1	0 to +2
East of England	1.0-1.3	+1 to +4
London	1.0-1.2	0 to +3
Midlands	1.0-1.2	+1 to +3
North East and Yorkshire	1.0-1.1	0 to +2
North West	0.8-1.0	-3 to 0
South East	1.1-1.3	+1 to +4
South West	1.0-1.3	+1 to +4

So, does the R rate not have any determining factor in the Tier regions go into?

Even with those figures most if not all the NE is in tier 3, but it's clearly doing better than London

 

[Oggmonster]

Can't agree more with this.

The fact that what we have here is called a "lockdown" is ridiculous in itself, and people acting as if all their rights have been taken away and they can't do anything.

Go and see the rest of Europe, with police giving fines for not wearing masks on the streets, enforcing country wide curfews etc. Places like Germany staying in lockdown until at least 20th December.

The elitism of people in this country is ridiculous, and it is understandable why the rest of Europe sees us as these ignorant pigs.

This logic where we're all just dickheads is a bit weird.

It seems pretty normal people are frustrated with what is happening.

Not being allowed out properly in 9 or so months
It's now winter which is naturally going to piss more people off
A tier system where logic seems to go out the window somewhat
A government which clearly doesn't know what they're doing.
The fact it's approaching Christmas is a factor as well

I'm sure you can find people in Germany, Spain, Italy, France wherever who are pissed off at the whole thing as well. It's not exactly out of the ordinary to be frustrated by it all.

It seems more to more people love taking the high ground and feeling superior by talking down to people who dare miss normality and say it.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I’ll enjoy my traitorous pint of draft ale next week

Enjoy everyone from Devon rampaging you guys!

 

[Drifter]

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

People need to stop trying to make sense of the Tiers and regions.

This government was elected. This is how they behave. Trying to parse some fairness in there is pointless.

 

[VeevaVee]

I feel like the Christmas break is just because they know a lot of people are going to break lockdown if it’s in place, which would quite rightly piss everyone else off. Coupled with trying to police it on Christmas Day, it’s probably just not worth having the lockdown. Potential uproar on both sides.

 

[groovyalbert]

I feel like the Christmas break is just because they know a lot of people are going to break lockdown if it’s in place, which would quite rightly piss everyone else off. Coupled with trying to police it on Christmas Day, it’s probably just not worth having the lockdown. Potential uproar on both sides.

Sort of agree to be honest. For me, the only reason to impose lockdowns/restrictions is to protect hospitals/ensure other treatments can be administered. It's a real shame that after the first wave we haven't been better at making more space/opening up facilities to cope with what was always going to come. We should have utilised army facilities/doctors and demanded more from private hospitals that simply never took place.

Now we're left putting unnecessary pressure on a bowing health service because we didn't make use of all options. And all this for a disease which - despite it's horrific impact , and one which has touched me personally - still isn't that bad compared to other potential pandemics we've either previously avoided/may still come.

 

[Suv666]

I think I've caught it. Have an insanely bad cough since morning now. Antibiotics arent working. Have isolated myself will try to get tested tommorow

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Slight problem with that theory: it is not just the UK government relaxing restrictions for the holidays

I honestly dunno how people are handling it in other countries, i would guess that it isn't just UK people who are acting like spoilt brats but i don't live in those countries so I won't coment.

Also, I don't just blame the UK government I think the people of the UK need to take and equal (if not the majority of the blame) people are demanding the relaxing for xmas it's very clear that even if the government didn't allow it then a majority of people would just ignore the rules anyway.

 

[Judas]

France seems to be handling it in a much more strict manner going by what friends have told me, I think we've got off so lightly in this country and the government have just put faith and trust into the public to do the right thing. Seems like laziness and a desperate attempt to please.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

The North East of England is being crippled by Covid. Staying in tier 3 again. I have family that own pub's and the money provided to them from the government is not enough and unfortunately their businesses that they have worked extremely hard for are about to go under.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

it's simply that us British people are spoilt and have would have a massive hissy fit if they weren't allowed to have family Christmas.

We will also have a hissy fit afterwards when we have to be lockdown again, will blame everyone else for the fact that it costs peoples lives and jobs.

The biggest thing i'm taking away from this pandemic is that we are a country of overly entitled *****

It not sure it’s just British people. Be interesting to see if there are similar reactions elsewhere.

there’s certainly a lot of people who can’t see the point in the restrictions, and who are taking the piss. Perhaps because they can’t see the implications of their actions immediately?

we are certainty not a country United that’s pulling in the same direction. That’s very clear, and not just from corona.

This logic where we're all just dickheads is a bit weird.

It seems pretty normal people are frustrated with what is happening.

Not being allowed out properly in 9 or so months
It's now winter which is naturally going to piss more people off
A tier system where logic seems to go out the window somewhat
A government which clearly doesn't know what they're doing.
The fact it's approaching Christmas is a factor as well

I'm sure you can find people in Germany, Spain, Italy, France wherever who are pissed off at the whole thing as well. It's not exactly out of the ordinary to be frustrated by it all.

It seems more to more people love taking the high ground and feeling superior by talking down to people who dare miss normality and say it.

I don’t get the obsession with Christmas, and this sudden need for everyone to see each other. Use zoom or Skype for goodness sake. There should be a focus on people who are in care homes, and haven’t been able to see elderly relatives/ grandchildren but for most people, it should be a case of suck it up.

we don’t need a 5 day period to go wild and visit everyone. People will not stick to this 3 family bubble, there’s no enforcement, and I know people who will just go from family to family for 5 days having a party every day.

of course there are people taking the high ground, but they presumably are not spreading the virus from their ivory tower?

i would suggest there are more people pushing the boundaries to what’s acceptable, or making up scenarios to bend/ circumvent the rules.

too many people want a rule for everything and every single thing that can happen. It’s pretty simple, just reduce contact with people.

I might be baa humbug, but a big Christmas is not needed this year. No need to see people outside your immediate family.

I’d rather that that have a national lockdown in January, which is an inevitable outcome when the R value goes through the roof as a result.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I feel like the Christmas break is just because they know a lot of people are going to break lockdown if it’s in place, which would quite rightly piss everyone else off. Coupled with trying to police it on Christmas Day, it’s probably just not worth having the lockdown. Potential uproar on both sides.

good point. It’s inevitable that people will get together, no matter what the restrictions. Might as well let us be allowable, than fine people on Christmas, that will create outrage.

it’s ridiculous really to have to bow to that pressure, but I think your right, and it’s the only reason we have a United stance in the UK countries for the first time since this started.

 

[nme_pro]

Visiting family? Nah get fecked.

Watching a sporting event? Sure, bring 999 of your mates.


Pretty nice of covid to not make its way into such venues.

The bolded bit is completely nonsensical. Why on earth would that be OK? Just leave it until the New Year and make a judgement after we see how much havoc was created by Christmas.

Also, its a tad harsh on the London Boroughs who aren't really contributing much to the total number and getting lumped in with London's restrictions.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

good point. It’s inevitable that people will get together, no matter what the restrictions. Might as well let us be allowable, than fine people on Christmas, that will create outrage.

it’s ridiculous really to have to bow to that pressure, but I think your right, and it’s the only reason we have a United stance in the UK countries for the first time since this started.

Its just pathetic that people are so incapable of accepting a smaller Christmas that there isn't a point trying to tell them no.

Whats does that say about how utterly pathetic people are? that despite everyone knowing that it will cost lives(as it will obviously massively spread the virus) and jobs (because companies will deftly have to shut again when there is another lockdown for that). people just don't care as they want a party.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Its just pathetic that people are so incapable of accepting a smaller Christmas that there isn't a point trying to tell them no.

Whats does that say about how utterly pathetic people are? that despite everyone knowing that it will cost lives(as it will obviously massively spread the virus) and jobs (because companies will deftly have to shut again when there is another lockdown for that). people just don't care as they want a party.

I agree.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its just pathetic that people are so incapable of accepting a smaller Christmas that there isn't a point trying to tell them no.

Whats does that say about how utterly pathetic people are? that despite everyone knowing that it will cost lives(as it will obviously massively spread the virus) and jobs (because companies will deftly have to shut again when there is another lockdown for that). people just don't care as they want a party.

It’s not really a party though, is it? For the vast majority of people it’s extended family spending a day together after being kept apart for most of an absolutely terrible year.

I’m honestly struggling to understand the begrudgery about this.

 

[Dave_MUFC]

This logic where we're all just dickheads is a bit weird.

It seems pretty normal people are frustrated with what is happening.

Not being allowed out properly in 9 or so months
It's now winter which is naturally going to piss more people off
A tier system where logic seems to go out the window somewhat
A government which clearly doesn't know what they're doing.
The fact it's approaching Christmas is a factor as well

I'm sure you can find people in Germany, Spain, Italy, France wherever who are pissed off at the whole thing as well. It's not exactly out of the ordinary to be frustrated by it all.

It seems more to more people love taking the high ground and feeling superior by talking down to people who dare miss normality and say it.

I understand the frustrations, and wanting to return to normality. But it's acting upon it which is the issue. Deciding not to wear a mask or follow social distancing because you're sick of it isn't a reasonable thing to do. I'm sick of not being able to visit restaurants, bars, going on holiday, visiting friends and family etc. But I have still spent the best part of the last 6 months mainly just with my missus, and doing outdoor activities.

A few days ago, a bunch of the local independent bars and restaurants around here wrote an open letter to the mayor stating that he should fight for Birmingham to go into Tier 2 so they can open up, and tried to state with percentages that there were more risks going to a supermarket than going to a restaurant, which is completely false, and spreads fake news. I don't appreciate that kind of selfishness. I understand your business is losing loads of money, but people's health has to come first and foremost.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

It’s not really a party though, is it? For the vast majority of people it’s extended family spending a day together after being kept apart for most of an absolutely terrible year.

I’m honestly struggling to understand the begrudgery about this.

because its going massively spread the virus, millions of people travelling all over the country mixing inside, it's only going to go one way. The cost is going to be more lives lost and more jobs lost. All for 1 day because of its Christmas. And when there is a spike in deaths people won't accept any responsibility they will blame other people.

There are vaccines on the way, people should be capable of going ok I will see them in a few months, I don't need to see them now I can deal with one small Christmas. but apparently, people can't.

 

[bsCallout]

I think I've caught it. Have an insanely bad cough since morning now. Antibiotics arent working. Have isolated myself will try to get tested tommorow

Hope you're OK and it passes quickly.

 

[bsCallout]

because its going massively spread the virus, millions of people travelling all over the country mixing inside, it's only going to go one way. The cost is going to be more lives lost and more jobs lost. All for 1 day because of its Christmas. And when there is a spike in deaths people won't accept any responsibility they will blame other people.

There are vaccines on the way, people should be capable of going ok I will see them in a few months, I don't need to see them now I can deal with one small Christmas. but apparently, people can't.

I was watching 'The man who invented christmas' and they talk about people having a day off from work for Christmas like it was completely wrong.

Now we're willing to put lives at risk for that one day.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I was watching 'The man who invented christmas' and they talk about people having a day off from work for Christmas like it was completely wrong.

Now we're willing to put lives at risk for that one day.

Exactly, its just 1 day. Most people aren't even Cristian these days, and those who are sure don't think a God who is meant to be a perfect being would want them to basically knowing spread a virus that harms peoples long term health and lively hoods just for 1 day! Plus even most Christians don't think Jesus was actually born on that date and know its just a hangover from a pagan festival that was adopted by Christianity. So there is no real significance to the date beyond what humans have decided to put on it.

Just accept we can't really have Christmas this year and have huge national/world holiday when vaccinations have been given out next year and normal Xmas next year.

 

[golden_blunder]

This logic where we're all just dickheads is a bit weird.

It seems pretty normal people are frustrated with what is happening.

Not being allowed out properly in 9 or so months
It's now winter which is naturally going to piss more people off
A tier system where logic seems to go out the window somewhat
A government which clearly doesn't know what they're doing.
The fact it's approaching Christmas is a factor as well

I'm sure you can find people in Germany, Spain, Italy, France wherever who are pissed off at the whole thing as well. It's not exactly out of the ordinary to be frustrated by it all.

It seems more to more people love taking the high ground and feeling superior by talking down to people who dare miss normality and say it.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. All the stuff you say + a percentage of people not taking personal responsibility / deniers

 

[golden_blunder]

I think I've caught it. Have an insanely bad cough since morning now. Antibiotics arent working. Have isolated myself will try to get tested tommorow

Good luck

 

[Ananke]

because its going massively spread the virus, millions of people travelling all over the country mixing inside, it's only going to go one way. The cost is going to be more lives lost and more jobs lost. All for 1 day because of its Christmas. And when there is a spike in deaths people won't accept any responsibility they will blame other people.

There are vaccines on the way, people should be capable of going ok I will see them in a few months, I don't need to see them now I can deal with one small Christmas. but apparently, people can't.

I'm all for a small Christmas, keeping safe and not risking peoples lives away.

But you can't not empathize with people who bend around the rules, small or big, at this time of the year. You can say 'well I'm managing to do it and I'm struggling why can't they?'. Well your circumstance will never be the exact same as someone else. They'll be people who do it because they don't give a ****, they'll be people doing it because it might be the last Christmas they get to spend with certain family members. They'll be people not doing it because they simply just want to feel high and mighty about themselves as opposed to actually caring about stopping deaths. There will be a lot of reasons and situations, I wouldn't paint it black and white. Saying 'just wait a month' is not a thing. There is no guarantee that will be the case. And we haven't had that guarantee over the last 9 months. There hasn't been a light at the end of the tunnel, most people have obeyed the rules in the idea that doing so will loosen those rules. They've been loosened, tightened, loosened, tightened. When you don't see an end, you'll start to break those rules.

Personally I'm not going to instantly judge someone if they step over the line that's been set. If they start sprinting and pissing all over it, sure.

 

[golden_blunder]

It’s not really a party though, is it? For the vast majority of people it’s extended family spending a day together after being kept apart for most of an absolutely terrible year.

I’m honestly struggling to understand the begrudgery about this.

They had a lady on a bbc article who was over the moon saying she was going to see all her family. The way she said it made me think she’s not talking about 4 or 5 people.
I mean if that’s what’s going to happen doesn’t it negate everything leading up to it? You’re inviting infection spread. For what? Because of a Daily Mail campaign?

 

[acnumber9]

I think people being judged for visiting relatives at Christmas is harsh. I see where it’s coming from and there’s logic in the argument against it but it ignores the human element. People who haven’t seen their families in months, elderly people who have been isolated and Christmas and family is a big thing for them. It’s not fair to demonise those people. Especially if they are the ones who have already suffered the most.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think people being judged for visiting relatives at Christmas is harsh. I see where it’s coming from and there’s logic in the argument against it but it ignores the human element. People who haven’t seen their families in months, elderly people who have been isolated and Christians and family is a big thing for them. It’s not fair to demonise those people. Especially if they are the ones who have already suffered the most.

Exactly. And when you get above a certain age you start to count the number of Christmas’ you have left. My experience of Christmas is that the only people who come anywhere close to the enthusiasm of young children are the elderly. They’ve put up with a much worse year than the rest of us, so it absolutely makes sense to try and find a way for them to have a few days normality at the end of it.

Obviously, there is an onus on their younger relatives to do their best to make it as safe as possible for them. Which is where the personal responsibility comes in. Don’t cancel Christmas but ffs don’t spend the week before spending a day with your grandparents down the pub.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I'm all for a small Christmas, keeping safe and not risking peoples lives away.

But you can't not empathize with people who bend around the rules, small or big, at this time of the year. You can say 'well I'm managing to do it and I'm struggling why can't they?'. Well your circumstance will never be the exact same as someone else. They'll be people who do it because they don't give a ****, they'll be people doing it because it might be the last Christmas they get to spend with certain family members. They'll be people not doing it because they simply just want to feel high and mighty about themselves as opposed to actually caring about stopping deaths. There will be a lot of reasons and situations, I wouldn't paint it black and white. Saying 'just wait a month' is not a thing. There is no guarantee that will be the case. And we haven't had that guarantee over the last 9 months. There hasn't been a light at the end of the tunnel, most people have obeyed the rules in the idea that doing so will loosen those rules. They've been loosened, tightened, loosened, tightened. When you don't see an end, you'll start to break those rules.

Personally I'm not going to instantly judge someone if they step over the line that's been set. If they start sprinting and pissing all over it, sure.

I'm not saying it isn't hard. But unforntunaly life some times is hard, but if the hardest thing you have to cope with is not seeing extended family for a year and have a quiet Christmas, then your life has been pretty amazing! But sympathise with anyone who is struggling and people should be supported in any way that doesn't in danger lives, but just because you are struggling doesn't mean you can do what you want and don't need to accept that your actions have consequences.

The UK is basically saying we don't care about the consequences we want to be able to see each other at xmas. Personly i don't think that is a good idea. but what more annoying is when there is a massive spike in January people arn't going to go

"well this is the choice I made, these deaths are a consequence of that and i and others wanted to happened as we wanted a normal Christmas, and those people who lose their lives and jobs because of another lockdown are acceptable casualties of my need to have a normal xmas"
​

Of course, people are not going to say that they are going to blame other people, deny any responsibility and demand money to help them through the hard times.