SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Nytram Shakes said:
if the hardest thing you have to cope with is not seeing extended family for a year and have a quiet Christmas, then your life has been pretty amazing!
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Might be amazing for an introverted person. But for an extroverted person, that is not an amazing life. That's hell, you can compare other horrible things that happen in the world to it and say 'well at least this isn't happening to them'...but we're talking about what they know, what they feel, their own struggles. And it's not "extended" family, we're talking about grandparents, some are a lot closer to family than others.

Nytram Shakes said:
just because you are struggling doesn't mean you can do what you want and don't need to accept that your actions have consequences.
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People will be willing to accept the actions they take have consequences. When I get in my car, I accept that by doing so there's a chance something bad may happen. What I do, is limit that bad thing from happening in every way I can. Seatbelt, make sure I'm not drowsy, keep focus. They'll be people who go outside the rules this Christmas, who make sure to isolate in the days prior, who pay attention to their own health and don't ignore symptoms. People who want to see their family, will make sure they do so as risk free as possible. It's family...


Nytram Shakes said:
The UK is basically saying we don't care about the consequences we want to be able to see each other at xmas. Personly i don't think that is a good idea. but what more annoying is when there is a massive spike in January people arn't going to go
"well this is the choice I made, these deaths are a consequence of that and i and others wanted to happened as we wanted a normal Christmas, and those people who lose their lives and jobs because of another lockdown are acceptable casualties of my need to have a normal xmas"

Of course, people are not going to say that they are going to blame other people, deny any responsibility and demand money to help them through the hard times.
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That's a very generalized accusation you're painting on the entirety of the UK population. There could be a massive spike in January based on coming out of lockdown on the 4th December, in the run up to Christmas going into shops, restaurants etc. and that's still following the government rules. You're already saying the massive spike in January that may happen, will be 100% down to Christmas Day and people not following rules. Again, bit wild. And you've already put all the blame on those people. Your mind sounds set before anything has happened, or any kind of evidence/statistics are even up.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
I honestly dunno how people are handling it in other countries, i would guess that it isn't just UK people who are acting like spoilt brats but i don't live in those countries so I won't coment.

Also, I don't just blame the UK government I think the people of the UK need to take and equal (if not the majority of the blame) people are demanding the relaxing for xmas it's very clear that even if the government didn't allow it then a majority of people would just ignore the rules anyway.
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Some people need to see people to cope. Other people need to ridicule others to cope. We're all humans after all. Deeply flawed and far more comfortable judging other people's flaws than our own.

Personally I'm surprised how many people can't empathise with others' need for basic human connection. Something we're literally biologically programmed to do. Either lockdown has made people lose touch with their own sense of humanity or it's just been an ideal time for sociopaths to advocate for their worldview.

In any case, it's worth recognising that we don't all live in the same world. We haven't all spent the last 6 months with the missus, living a comfortable life. 8.2m people lived alone in the UK last year. Many of whom are old, and more than a few widows / widowers. My granny has been alone for over a decade now, out in the countryside, miles away from anyone in her family. There is a very real chance this will be her last christmas, as she's gotten significantly worse this year - perhaps partly due to lockdown, but also simply because she's nearing 90. She understands the risks. She doesn't fit very neatly into your archetype of spoilt brats who just want a bit of a party, unfortunately. Millions don't. In the UK and elsewhere. It's not a reflection of the decline of society but just a reflection of society.

We are social beings, and it has been a fundamental part of not just this "selfish" culture you have been brought into, but basically all cultures we've ever known. I get the impression you want to rip apart that culture or tear off those blots in the framework that allow these awful creatures to behave so irrationally. You just want them to do the "right" thing. It's a bit like the Christian missionaries in Tasmania in the 19th century. They wanted those barbaric creatures to distance themselves from their terrible rituals and follow the enlightened path. Eventually when all elements of their culture were outlawed, ridiculed or hidden away, they sort of lost the will to live. Some stopped having children, some committed suicide. Their culture - regardless of what others' thought of it - gave them a reason to be. It was also the primary way they accumulated enough resources to live healthy lives.

That clearly isn't the situation we're in here, but I'd suggest there are some echoes. Mainly in the complete lack of empathy for how others live and what value they get from living that way, and a complete disregard for the consequences of not even attempting to empathise. If they don't live according to our values then they're not living right. Getting people to give up their reason to be is not a question of willpower.
 
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DavidDeSchmikes said:
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With swathes of the country in Tier 3 till god knows when, the prospect of "lockdown 3" is fairly moot. Other than not being able to go the shops (a limited worry straight after Christmas) or get your hair cut, it's not all that different.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s not really a party though, is it? For the vast majority of people it’s extended family spending a day together after being kept apart for most of an absolutely terrible year.

I’m honestly struggling to understand the begrudgery about this.
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Agreed. Obviously there is a degree of risk involved but I expect the vast majority will be sensible.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
It not sure it’s just British people. Be interesting to see if there are similar reactions elsewhere.

there’s certainly a lot of people who can’t see the point in the restrictions, and who are taking the piss. Perhaps because they can’t see the implications of their actions immediately?

we are certainty not a country United that’s pulling in the same direction. That’s very clear, and not just from corona.



I don’t get the obsession with Christmas, and this sudden need for everyone to see each other. Use zoom or Skype for goodness sake. There should be a focus on people who are in care homes, and haven’t been able to see elderly relatives/ grandchildren but for most people, it should be a case of suck it up.

we don’t need a 5 day period to go wild and visit everyone. People will not stick to this 3 family bubble, there’s no enforcement, and I know people who will just go from family to family for 5 days having a party every day.

of course there are people taking the high ground, but they presumably are not spreading the virus from their ivory tower?

i would suggest there are more people pushing the boundaries to what’s acceptable, or making up scenarios to bend/ circumvent the rules.

too many people want a rule for everything and every single thing that can happen. It’s pretty simple, just reduce contact with people.

I might be baa humbug, but a big Christmas is not needed this year. No need to see people outside your immediate family.

I’d rather that that have a national lockdown in January, which is an inevitable outcome when the R value goes through the roof as a result.
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I think Christmas is obviously traditionally seen as a family time for most people. I'm not to fussed about christmas day but I love the christmas period as it's a time to be with friends/family and a break from work.

I agree with what you're saying and I'm the same re another lockdown but I can equally see why people are frustrated by it all and it seems pretty reasonable to be annoyed by it (I'm not advocating breaking rules etc just I can sympathise with the frustration)

Dave_MUFC said:
I understand the frustrations, and wanting to return to normality. But it's acting upon it which is the issue. Deciding not to wear a mask or follow social distancing because you're sick of it isn't a reasonable thing to do. I'm sick of not being able to visit restaurants, bars, going on holiday, visiting friends and family etc. But I have still spent the best part of the last 6 months mainly just with my missus, and doing outdoor activities.

A few days ago, a bunch of the local independent bars and restaurants around here wrote an open letter to the mayor stating that he should fight for Birmingham to go into Tier 2 so they can open up, and tried to state with percentages that there were more risks going to a supermarket than going to a restaurant, which is completely false, and spreads fake news. I don't appreciate that kind of selfishness. I understand your business is losing loads of money, but people's health has to come first and foremost.
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Yeah I don't think people should be breaking rules or anything but I just feel that it is perfectly normal to be pissed off by it and I don't think it makes anyone dickheads if they're annoyed by the rules. The rules though are constantly seemingly lacking logic at times and I can see why it pisses people off. It pisses me off as I live in the north west and where I am the rate is lower than the UK average and it's still dropping yet I'm in Tier 3 for the next few weeks still!

I agree it's bad to spread false information or fake news but I also think it is healthy to question the governments decisions cos they have U-Turned or been proven wrong on so many. I also sympathise hugely with restaurant and bar owners in particular as so many of them are not getting the help they need and will clearly be gone within the next 12 months which must be horrible.

golden_blunder said:
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. All the stuff you say + a percentage of people not taking personal responsibility / deniers
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Yeah definitely is people who don't help by denying it etc as well. Think these Tiers etc just annoy people even more, at least in a national lockdown they're all in it, must be hugely frustrating for business owners who can see a restaurant open a few miles away for example.
 
There’s 100% going to be old people dying because of it. So many people acting moronic, there’s no way everyone gonna use common sense precaution.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Exactly. And when you get above a certain age you start to count the number of Christmas’ you have left. My experience of Christmas is that the only people who come anywhere close to the enthusiasm of young children are the elderly. They’ve put up with a much worse year than the rest of us, so it absolutely makes sense to try and find a way for them to have a few days normality at the end of it.

Obviously, there is an onus on their younger relatives to do their best to make it as safe as possible for them. Which is where the personal responsibility comes in. Don’t cancel Christmas but ffs don’t spend the week before spending a day with your grandparents down the pub.
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My post should’ve said Christmas instead of Christians though. Nobody cares about them.
 
acnumber9 said:
I think people being judged for visiting relatives at Christmas is harsh. I see where it’s coming from and there’s logic in the argument against it but it ignores the human element. People who haven’t seen their families in months, elderly people who have been isolated and Christmas and family is a big thing for them. It’s not fair to demonise those people. Especially if they are the ones who have already suffered the most.
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It really depends on who you're talking to. If you are someone who is disabled(physical, learning, etc) it must be really disheartening to see so many folks act with little or no care about them. Being disabled is challenging enough on multiple fronts, without a deadly virus going around and folks acting like they don't care about transmission.
 
When are people going to realise, these idiots we elect as leaders do not have a clue? They should have no right to tell people were they can and cannot go, who they can and cannot meet and what they can and cannot do.
 
I have had a bit of a twatting headache for a week and thought nothing of it, now tonight I have developed a cough. Has anyone had any experience with this ?

A quick look on Google and it looks like it's not very common but has happened and there isn't much data on it.
 
jymufc20 said:
I have had a bit of a twatting headache for a week and thought nothing of it, now tonight I have developed a cough. Has anyone had any experience with this ?

A quick look on Google and it looks like it's not very common but has happened and there isn't much data on it.
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That was how the symptoms I had developed. Big headache, then a dry cough, then a fever. Cough ended up lasting about three weeks and became unbearable.

This was slap bang during the height of the first wave when mass testing wasn't available, so who knows if it was definitely it, but I think I'm right in saying that a new, persistent cough on its own is still a good enough reason to go get a test.
 
NinjaFletch said:
That was how the symptoms I had developed. Big headache, then a dry cough, then a fever. Cough ended up lasting about three weeks and became unbearable.

This was slap bang during the height of the first wave when mass testing wasn't available, so who knows if it was definitely it, but I think I'm right in saying that a new, persistent cough on its own is still a good enough reason to go get a test.
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Oh without a doubt I will be getting a test tomorrow, cheers.

I had a terrible cough a few weeks ago and was certain I had it and tested negative allthough I had no other symptoms, must of just been a chest infection of some sorts.

I just need this headache to feck off its very irritating as I don't usually get them unless I'm hungover.

How long did your headache last before your other symptoms flared up ?
 
Nytram Shakes said:
I honestly dunno how people are handling it in other countries, i would guess that it isn't just UK people who are acting like spoilt brats but i don't live in those countries so I won't coment.

Also, I don't just blame the UK government I think the people of the UK need to take and equal (if not the majority of the blame) people are demanding the relaxing for xmas it's very clear that even if the government didn't allow it then a majority of people would just ignore the rules anyway.
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Restrictions are stressful but the shambolic response of the UK government has opened up lots of opportunity for people to act on an individual basis IMO.
 
jymufc20 said:
I have had a bit of a twatting headache for a week and thought nothing of it, now tonight I have developed a cough. Has anyone had any experience with this ?

A quick look on Google and it looks like it's not very common but has happened and there isn't much data on it.
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thats how it started for me. i tested positive a few days later
 
It's hard to believe how bad the UK's response to this has been. They're making it up as they go along as this point and I would bet my house the rules will be changed again in the next few weeks. The negative reaction to the latest set has been huge.

When i'm back home over Christmas I'll have a look at what the big countries in Europe are doing and follow that advice.
 
11101 said:
It's hard to believe how bad the UK's response to this has been. They're making it up as they go along as this point and I would bet my house the rules will be changed again in the next few weeks. The negative reaction to the latest set has been huge.

When i'm back home over Christmas I'll have a look at what the big countries in Europe are doing and follow that advice.
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I honestly think it would have been so much better to just say "national lockdown remains" and then hope not too many people break the rules. There are still a lot of people who would comply.
 
11101 said:
It's hard to believe how bad the UK's response to this has been. They're making it up as they go along as this point and I would bet my house the rules will be changed again in the next few weeks. The negative reaction to the latest set has been huge.

When i'm back home over Christmas I'll have a look at what the big countries in Europe are doing and follow that advice.
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Out of interest, what “big countries” in Europe do you think have done a really good job? It seems to be varying degrees of shit show, other than the Nordics, as far as I can see. And what’s helped the Nordic countries seems to have mainly been low population density, no major transport hubs and a very compliant population rather than superb governance.

Germany’s done ok but has taken a very regional and varied approach. Almost like the US.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Out of interest, what “big countries” in Europe do you think have done a really good job? It seems to be varying degrees of shit show, other than the Nordics, as far as I can see. And what’s helped the Nordic countries seems to have mainly been low population density, no major transport hubs and a very compliant population rather than superb governance.

Germany’s done ok but has taken a very regional and varied approach. Almost like the US.
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Germany is the obvious one, and Spain and especially Italy's response to the first outbreak. Everybody has dropped the ball on the second wave outbreaks, but i'd say almost all have been clearer and more effective in bring it back under control than the UK.

Put it another way, do you think anybody has done a worse job than the UK?
 
11101 said:
It's hard to believe how bad the UK's response to this has been. They're making it up as they go along as this point and I would bet my house the rules will be changed again in the next few weeks. The negative reaction to the latest set has been huge.

When i'm back home over Christmas I'll have a look at what the big countries in Europe are doing and follow that advice.
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Why not just avoid spending time with groups of people in confined spaces with inadequate ventilation. Not sure why you need a government to tell you what to do. The risks are perfectly clear by now. Anyone with common sense knows when they’re taking risks.
 
11101 said:
Germany is the obvious one, and Spain and especially Italy's response to the first outbreak. Everybody has dropped the ball on the second wave outbreaks, but i'd say almost all have been clearer and more effective in bring it back under control than the UK.

Put it another way, do you think anybody has done a worse job than the UK?
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I think the UK delayed too long with the first lockdown (so did Italy, as it happens, but they didn’t get as clear an advance warning) Since then, nobody has done a great job, although some countries doing better than others at putting the brakes on (albeit only after racking up huge case numbers)

I posted this league table yesterday. Lots of countries doing a hell of a lot worse than the UK at at containing the second wave.

 
Classical Mechanic said:
Why not just avoid spending time with groups of people in confined spaces with inadequate ventilation. Not sure why you need a government to tell you what to do. The risks are perfectly clear by now. Anyone with common sense knows when they’re taking risks.
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That's not been the reality at all though, throughout this lockdown a big chunk of people have done whatever the lockdown restrictions allow as if it's encouraged them.

You just can't rely on enough people having common sense unfortunately. It's quite worrying how many seem to have a bit of denial about the whole thing.

It'd be nice if the government at least issued guidance because without it people won't take the necessary precautions and it'll be a normal christmas.

We're isolating before hand then we've booked a couple of separate cottages so inlaws can enjoy key bits of christmas with us but we won't have to have the whole day together. Sounds wonderful from my perspective :lol:.
 
11101 said:
Germany is the obvious one, and Spain and especially Italy's response to the first outbreak. Everybody has dropped the ball on the second wave outbreaks, but i'd say almost all have been clearer and more effective in bring it back under control than the UK.

Put it another way, do you think anybody has done a worse job than the UK?
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The important question isn't who has done better but who has done well. And if most countries have not done well by your standards, at this stage in the pandemic, it raises the question of what it means to do well. It either means doing better than the average, or aligning with absolute measures of success.

If the latter, then the question becomes are those absolute measures beyond the capabilities of the participants with the resources they have and environment they operate in (i.e. destined for failure), or are the majority of participants all failing on essential components through voluntary choice (e.g. bad decisions).

If the latter, you need to have a compelling theory why governments across the political spectrum, operating with very different resources, coming into the second wave from very different starting points, and employing a wide range of policies, all ended up failing on those counts.

If you don't have that then it is more likely to indicate a measurement error i.e. you thought it was easier to achieve that target than it really is, it you underestimate the limitations they are operating with.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think the UK delayed too long with the first lockdown (so did Italy, as it happens, but they didn’t get as clear an advance warning) Since then, nobody has done a great job, although some countries doing better than others at putting the brakes on (albeit only after racking up huge case numbers)

I posted this league table yesterday. Lots of countries doing a hell of a lot worse than the UK at at containing the second wave.

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That doesn't really account for differing timelines though. Second waves started at different times.
 
11101 said:
That doesn't really account for differing timelines though. Second waves started at different times.
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Sure. And don’t you think the respective governments have a role to play in how early the second waves were allowed to get up a head of steam? It certainly seems as though coming out of lockdown needs to be as carefully managed as what happens during it.

On a side note, I think the culture of compliance in any given country is arguably more important than the regulations they’re being asked to comply with. So outcomes don’t always directly reflect the quality of the government guidance.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Sure. And don’t you think the respective governments have a role to play in how early the second waves were allowed to get up a head of steam? It certainly seems as though coming out of lockdown needs to be as carefully managed as what happens during it.

On a side note, I think the culture of compliance in any given country is arguably more important than the regulations they’re being asked to comply with. So outcomes don’t always directly reflect the quality of the government guidance.
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I actually think the emergence of outbreaks is the one thing governments really can't control. Most countries were out of lockdown for a long time before second waves began. It's been total luck of the draw so far.
 
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