RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark

[Swarm]

forgot about Lehmann, though i never rated him but he isnt a turd(average or below) like Weidenfeller and Burki.

Not a big fan of Lehmann either but he was pretty good at his peak. You have to consider that Weidenfeller played for the team when they were pretty shit in general and money was scarce so you can't expect true greatness there. We were also far from a team that wanted to (let alone could) play possession based football. Judging Bürki is a bit more difficult. I believe his issues is mostly nerves (always great for a goalie ) and he has made more mistakes in his first seasons than he should have. On the other hand he works great as a passing option for the defenders which is important for possession play. And the last season was - especially the first half - extremely good from a shot stopping perspective as well. He saved us quite a few points there. So if he is able to continue with that form for a couple of years I don't think there is a single goalie out there that is better than him AND attainable for Dortmund.

 

[Fortitude]

Am I allowed to edit my list, or is it set in stone once posted?

 

[Fortitude]

Well, some moments for me define a lot more than others.

Baggio wouldn't be a fecking R6 pick in an all time no restrictions draft if he hadn't missed that penalty. Zidane would have been a top 5 pick if he had managed to stay on and France won it in 2006. Spain wouldn't have had a WC even with that tiki taka juggernaut if not for those couple of 1 on 1's he put out against Robben. These aren't just epic moments, these are history defining ones. I put a lot of weight on them.



You make a pretty fair case and if you discount the dip, I rate peak Iker as solid enough in all those departments to deserve my ranking for him. Evidently, you do rate the overall longevity a bit more than me which is understandable.

Oh, don't get me wrong; I totally get where you're coming from with Casillas, it was more pointing out why he earned demerits and how they've counted against him in competition against the literal best of the best keepers of all time.

Like I said before, if his career had ended somehow, someway when he was at his best, he'd be a lock for around 10th on most lists, imo. But! A keeper losing 'it' isn't looked at in the same way as an outfielder, because a rounded one can compensate, where that mightn't be possible for an outfielder unless he goes to a team that caters to him.

It's by that margin (Casillas experiencing a plumment) that he is penalised in an exercise like this.

Toldo almost got on my list - high peak, marries old and new goalkeeping styles, huge range and reach - but I couldn't justify it in the end.

I couldn't justify it myself, tbh. Unfortunately for him, Euro 2000 proved to be the outlier, and whilst he was a solid keeper outside of that tournament, he was never regarded as the best in the world or one challenging those who were.

 

[Synco]

Am I allowed to edit my list, or is it set in stone once posted?

I don't see a problem if you do.

 

[Indnyc]

Am I allowed to edit my list, or is it set in stone once posted?

I edited my list

 

[2mufc0]

Don't see why you can't edit, the deadline hasn't passed.

 

[Schneckerl]

@Schneckerl
This is how we agreed to address the problem you mentioned. The majority of alltimers will be obvious cases anyway, so the pool of unclear candidates shouldn't be that large. Central midfielders might take some time, though.

I don't don't know about that.
Are Maradona and Zico attacking midfielders /classic #10 or playmaking forwards? I've seen this discussion countless of times without agreement.

 

[Fortitude]

OK, thanks.

Will do.

Edit: For some reason, Neuer at Shalke escaped my mind despite him being a keeper I was keeping tabs on at the time. That bumps him up a fair amount of places for me.

Had to drop Southall a bit, unfortunate for him that he was robbed of making an impression in Europe because of the ban, as well as playing for Wales when they weren't a good side, just to rub salt in that already open wound.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Oh, don't get me wrong; I totally get where you're coming from with Casillas, it was more pointing out why he earned demerits and how they've counted against him in competition against the literal best of the best keepers of all time.

Like I said before, if his career had ended somehow, someway when he was at his best, he'd be a lock for around 10th on most lists, imo. But! A keeper losing 'it' isn't looked at in the same way as an outfielder, because a rounded one can compensate, where that mightn't be possible for an outfielder unless he goes to a team that caters to him.

It's by that margin (Casillas experiencing a plumment) that he is penalised in an exercise like this.

I used to defend him a lot in the football forums on here as he used to, unfairly, get a lot of the same treatment Ramos receives. But I think if you were to list out the best keepers in the world not called Buffon over the last 20 years or so, then for me it would go something like this:

2000-2004 Kahn
2004-2006 Cech
2006-2008 Casillas
2008-2010 Cesar
2010-2015 Neuer
2015-2018 De Gea
2018-2019 Oblak

Or something along those lines, give or take a year/keeper or so

IFFHS GK of the year: 2008-2012.
La Liga Best Goalkeeper: 2009, 2012
Best European Goalkeeper: 2010
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2008-2012
UEFA Team of the Year: 2007-2012

Cesar never challenged him consistently and Neur's peak was 2013 onwards. And this was when in direct competition to Buffon too.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Agreed with this, but also to reiterate the only time I've seen him being world class on consistent basis and you could say he is the best in the world was 07/08. Even the very next year he had his moments. If we define a three years peak with him you still could see his deficiencies in some segments, which are already commented.

As above...

Misquoted Fortitude instead of Enigma.

 

[harms]

Am I allowed to edit my list, or is it set in stone once posted?

Absolutely, I’m going to count them only on 10th.

 

[harms]

IFFHS GK of the year: 2008-2012.
La Liga Best Goalkeeper: 2009, 2012
Best European Goalkeeper: 2010
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2008-2012
UEFA Team of the Year: 2007-2012

Cesar never challenged him consistently and Neur's peak was 2013 onwards. And this was when in direct competition to Buffon too.

Those awards got a bit repetitive with Madrid/Barca players getting consecutive nominations year after year ahead of more deserving players. Not saying that he didn’t deserve all of them, but the likes of Casillas/Pique/Ramos/Alves individual honors lists are a little bloated.

 

[harms]

what about the top 20 hump backs?

also 20 is a lot of effort, why not 5?

Or 3, or 1?

Just wanted to tell you about this brilliant option that XenForo forums provide:

 

[Enigma_87]

IFFHS GK of the year: 2008-2012.
La Liga Best Goalkeeper: 2009, 2012
Best European Goalkeeper: 2010
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2008-2012
UEFA Team of the Year: 2007-2012

Cesar never challenged him consistently and Neur's peak was 2013 onwards. And this was when in direct competition to Buffon too.

I wouldn’t put too much into those awards. For example Valdes was as many times La Liga best goalkeeper and he’s a bit of a clown.

He has many awards but that’s mainly due to the dominant teams he played for.

 

[Copa Mundial]

@Copa Mundial how is jaaskelainen so high? I remember him from Bolton, but to be above Van Der Sar, Cech and even Shay Given seems strange.

@P-Nut For me, because Jaaskelainen never played at a big club I don't think he got anywhere near the credit he deserved. If he played at Utd I think he would have been held in similar esteem to DDG. He single handedly kept Bolton in games. Whilst I don't have any stats to hand I would imagine his average number of saves per game would be huge.

Check out some of these worldies (the double save against Cole is exceptional).

 

[Invictus]

Am I allowed to edit my list, or is it set in stone once posted?

Sure you can, as long as it's done before the submission deadline!

Post your list of 20 best goalkeepers of all-time. I'll close the thread in a week, on 9th of July (unless we decide to extend the vote).

For reference, this is my final (hopefully) Edit Log for this post...

 

[Fortitude]

Sure you can, as long as it's done before the submission deadline!

For reference, this is my final (hopefully) Edit Log for this post...

 

[Physiocrat]

I wouldn’t put too much into those awards. For example Valdes was as many times La Liga best goalkeeper and he’s a bit of a clown.

He has many awards but that’s mainly due to the dominant teams he played for.

I get the feeling awards used to be much more accurate than they are now. Is there a year when they began to give the awards out just to players who happened to be in the very successful sides?

 

[Enigma_87]

I get the feeling awards used to be much more accurate than they are now. Is there a year when they began to give the awards out just to players who happened to be in the very successful sides?

Yeah definitely. I think in the past it had more individual bearing rather than now where they just pick players from the most successful teams in the current year.

 

[Physiocrat]

Yeah definitely. I think in the past it had more individual bearing rather than now where they just pick players from the most successful teams in the current year.

Just had a look at the La Liga season awards. They look broken ever since they started in 08

 

[Gio]

Like I said before, if his career had ended somehow, someway when he was at his best, he'd be a lock for around 10th on most lists, imo. But! A keeper losing 'it' isn't looked at in the same way as an outfielder, because a rounded one can compensate, where that mightn't be possible for an outfielder unless he goes to a team that caters to him.

It's by that margin (Casillas experiencing a plumment) that he is penalised in an exercise like this.

On a related point, I note @Moby picked Zubizaretta. Never really rated him based on what I saw in the mid-to-late 1990s, until I realised the guy was in his mid-30s by that point and was clearly a much better keeper earlier in his career.

 

[Gio]

IFFHS GK of the year: 2008-2012.
La Liga Best Goalkeeper: 2009, 2012
Best European Goalkeeper: 2010
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2008-2012
UEFA Team of the Year: 2007-2012

Cesar never challenged him consistently and Neur's peak was 2013 onwards. And this was when in direct competition to Buffon too.

I'm not a massive fan of the UEFA or FIFPro awards - so many of the votes are reputation driven or knee jerk. The European Sports Media's teams of the year are more robust IMO, based on collated monthly rankings by international journalists. The broader range of players recognised shows that it is not simply a reflection of who caught the headlines in April and May. Cherrypicking my awards then , I think the fact he only won Best European Keeper once in his career (compared to Cech/Kahn/Neuer with 4 each) and the equivalent for La Liga just twice (same as Valdes as Engima says, although it only started in 2008) is quite telling and doesn't elevate him as a clear number two of his generation behind Buffon.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm not a massive fan of the UEFA or FIFPro awards - so many of the votes are reputation driven or knee jerk. The European Sports Media's teams of the year are more robust IMO, based on collated monthly rankings by international journalists. The broader range of players recognised shows that it is not simply a reflection of who caught the headlines in April and May. Cherrypicking my awards then , I think the fact he only won Best European Keeper once in his career (compared to Cech/Kahn/Neuer with 4 each) and the equivalent for La Liga just twice (same as Valdes as Engima says, although it only started in 2008) is quite telling and doesn't elevate him as a clear number two of his generation behind Buffon.

How long have the European Sports Media team of the season awards been going?

 

[Gio]

How long have the European Sports Media team of the season awards been going?

Mid-1990s.

 

[Fortitude]

On a related point, I note @Moby picked Zubizaretta. Never really rated him based on what I saw in the mid-to-late 1990s, until I realised the guy was in his mid-30s by that point and was clearly a much better keeper earlier in his career.

He's one of those keepers who always seemed like an oldie, perhaps because by the time Sky acquired the rights for La Liga, he'd already had a decent chunk of a career. Spain of the time wouldn't have helped enhance his rep much either.

For me, he's one of those keepers who gets taken for granted and swept under the rug because of the eras he featured in and the insane number of elite keepers therein (surely the most stacked of all), in comparison, he's an afterthought really.

 

[Synco]

CB rankings are up next, so I guess it's a good moment to define the dividing line between the two categories.

The basic idea of that list was to group liberos with only genuinely playmaking defenders. So modern CBs who served as dominant DLPs in their prime, but not other CBs with good technique/build up play. The lines are blurred anyway, we just have to agree were to put certain players.

I'd personally draw the line like this (including players who are not top 20 material):

CB playmakers: Pique, Bonucci, Boateng, Hummels, David Luiz. Ramos makes that list as well.

"Regular" CBs: Ferdinand, Nesta, Thiago Silva, Ricardo Carvalho

I have deliberately included borderline cases, so we can get right to the bottom of it. All fundamental premises and player evaluations can be changed, of course.

 

[Fortitude]

A big problem with the playmaking CB's is whether we judge them on their defending, their actual playmaking or both in equal measure. There are some absolutely elite playmaking CB's who were really not very good at actual defending, so what happens there? When you've got a CB who is an elite (all time level) playmaker but a distinctly average defender?

 

[harms]

Yeah, we definitely need to specify it. I'm not sure that I'd put the likes of Pique or Luiz as true playmakers from the deep, just ball-playing defenders, for example.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

can we just use sweepers/liberos as one category and others as second...i mean how will someone know if a sweeper from the 60s was just a sweeper or a playmaking CB.

 

[Synco]

A big problem with the playmaking CB's is whether we judge them on their defending, their actual playmaking or both in equal measure. There are some absolutely elite playmaking CB's who were really not very good at actual defending, so what happens there? When you've got a CB who is an elite (all time level) playmaker but a distinctly average defender?

I think at this stage the discussion is not about quality yet, but only player type. Defensive abilities should be a key criterion in any case, but it's up to everyone to decide how the different traits are weighted in their own rankings.

 

[harms]

can we just use sweepers/liberos as one category and others as second...i mean how will someone know if a sweeper from the 60s was just a sweeper or a playmaking CB.

Probably this. Sweeper/libero and a stopper. I don't like to put Picchi/Schulz and Beckenbauer/Scirea in one category but it looks like the best compromise to me right now.

 

[Synco]

can we just use sweepers/liberos as one category and others as second...i mean how will someone know if a sweeper from the 60s was just a sweeper or a playmaking CB.

That's how I prefer it as well (as noted below the first version of my list). The only reason for including playmaking CBs was because the pool for liberos is smaller and the CB list would probably be overcrowded. No one protested it back then, but I'm happy to change it in the way you say.

 

[Fortitude]

I think at this stage the discussion is not about quality yet, but only player type. Defensive abilities should be a key criterion in any case, but it's up to everyone to decide how the different traits ae weighted in their own rankings.

But there are playmaking CB's in top sides who were covered for because said skill was so good and they aided their teams more than hindered it.

Primarily, is this playmakers who can defend, or defenders who can playmake? That's the question I'd pose.

 

[harms]

But there are playmaking CB's in top sides who were covered for because said skill was so good and they aided their teams more than hindered it.

Primarily, is this playmakers who can defend, or defenders who can playmake? That's the question I'd pose.

I'm not sure how many playmakers who can defend I've seen if we exclude the likes of old Boniek/Gullit/Matthäus. Figueroa, Baresi, even Scirea, I'd say, were defenders first.

Beckenbauer, Koeman... the next one that comes to my mind is Di Bartolomei — which is a significant gulp in quality. Perhaps Stielike, Pirri (although both would most likely qualify as midfielders), maybe Hierro... not enough for a separate list.

 

[Fortitude]

I'm not sure how many playmakers who can defend I've seen if we exclude the likes of old Boniek/Gullit/Matthäus. Figueroa, Baresi, even Scirea, I'd say, were defenders first.

Beckenbauer, Koeman... the next one that comes to my mind is Di Bartolomei — which is a significant gulp in quality. Perhaps Stielike, Pirri (although both would most likely qualify as midfielders), maybe Hierro... not enough for a separate list.

If we're talking playmaking over defending the list can be quite extensive, if we're looking at all-round packages, then it'll be the usual suspects jumbled around per list, I think.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm not sure how many playmakers who can defend I've seen if we exclude the likes of old Boniek/Gullit/Matthäus. Figueroa, Baresi, even Scirea, I'd say, were defenders first.

Beckenbauer, Koeman... the next one that comes to my mind is Di Bartolomei — which is a significant gulp in quality. Perhaps Stielike, Pirri (although both would most likely qualify as midfielders), maybe Hierro... not enough for a separate list.

Morten Olsen?

 

[harms]

Morten Olsen?

Yeah, that's a good one.

 

[Gio]

Agree the distinction should be made more on defensive function rather than attacking here. With that in mind, I think there are two clear differences.

1. Sweeper / libero - the spare guy in the middle of the defence
2. Centre half. Easy to define before the liberalisation of the offside trap when the 'stopper' tag would fit the bill nicely. But in the modern game zonal is king and the majority of elite centre-halves have to be all rounders: attack the first ball, pass men on, cover in behind and use the ball well.

The notion of the covering defender though - guys like Ferdinand, Nesta, even Godin sometimes - who were often paired with more classic stoppers - it's probably worth considering if they should go in the with the likes of Moore and Baresi or be next to Kohler, Campbell, etc.

Personally would say it's simpler to lob in all the modern 'covering defenders' into the centre-half category, and then decide which more modern guys would be eligible for the sweeper/libero category. I'm thinking Koeman, Marquez, Bonucci as the most obvious candidates as they all played to distinction in the middle of a three, next to more robust partners.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think having a sweeper/libero category when it no longer is applicable in football anymore makes little sense.

I'd probably vote for ball playing CB's as one category (covers liberos, sweeper and anyone with decent enough passing skills like Rio).
The second one could be for your normal stoppers.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I think having a sweeper/libero category when it no longer is applicable in football anymore makes little sense.

I'd probably vote for ball playing CB's as one category (covers liberos, sweeper and anyone with decent enough passing skills like Rio).
The second one could be for your normal stoppers.

Id use modern sweepers in that category that played in a back 4(Carvalho, Rio etc. and then you get the likes of Bobby Moore and co.)