@Joga Bonito you've listed Sepp Maier twice 
It's going to be a complete mess with so many overlapping players.
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re. the question of full-backs/wing-backs, surely you'd take two categories, just as with wingers and wing-forwards?
If you want this thing to be definitive, categorisation is important, moreso than desired, but 'lumping' in poses so many questions of its own as people then ask: 'but what makes this ball-playing CB comparable to A,B or C when what they did and what they're in the team for is so different?'
I wouldn't say a bit of breakdown is micro-management, rather acknlowedging the different roles players have flourished in and become the top of their particular tree in. If you lump a top tier attacking wing-back in with an expemplary, super defensive full-back and say one is better than the other, where is the distinction? that they start the game in roundabout the same area of the pitch? That player A's attacking credentials are better than player B's defensive ones? Surely like-for-like generates fair and correct compare and contrast elements?
If you want this thing to be definitive, categorisation is important, moreso than desired, but 'lumping' in poses so many questions of its own as people then ask: 'but what makes this ball-playing CB comparable to A,B or C when what they did and what they're in the team for is so different?'
I wouldn't say a bit of breakdown is micro-management, rather acknlowedging the different roles players have flourished in and become the top of their particular tree in. If you lump a top tier attacking wing-back in with an expemplary, super defensive full-back and say one is better than the other, where is the distinction? that they start the game in roundabout the same area of the pitch? That player A's attacking credentials are better than player B's defensive ones? Surely like-for-like generates fair and correct compare and contrast elements?
@Joga Bonito you've listed Sepp Maier twice
It's going to be a complete mess with so many overlapping players.
I don't think there will be that many if we're precise with definition. Fortitude had one for liberos earlier which IIRC included something like, a player who is an essential component in both build-up and total influence on their team's attack.
One list for all, 40 cbs and be done with it.
For general approach I'm with Fortitude on this. And TBF apart from full-backs and CBs I think Synco's categories are pretty well accurate
ohh and just to correct you, my list wasnt sweepers/liberos and stoppers/ball-playing cbs it was complete CBs instead of ball-playing ones(likes of Ferrara, Costacurta and co.)
Oh, sorry, misunderstood you.
@berbasloth4 you have 2 Shiltons in your list.
@Moby please put someone in Zamora's place; we've decided to only have players who've played after 1950.
How about a poll for the CB categories?
A simple CB list option
A stopper and ball-playing option
Libero, stopper and ball-playing option
A simple CB list option
A stopper and ball-playing option
Libero, stopper and ball-playing option
feck me if i understand this ball-playing nonsense 
Surely ability on the ball was, is and always will be a secondary ability of a centerback so every ball-playing centerback should already be in one of three main categories - sweeper/libero(3 or 4 back), stopper and complete cb.
Surely ability on the ball was, is and always will be a secondary ability of a centerback so every ball-playing centerback should already be in one of three main categories - sweeper/libero(3 or 4 back), stopper and complete cb.
feck me if i understand this ball-playing nonsense
Surely ability on the ball was, is and always will be a secondary ability of a centerback so every ball-playing centerback should already be in one of three main categories - sweeper/libero(3 or 4 back), stopper and complete cb.
What I mean by ball-playing CB is a covering defender who's game is more based on positioning and timing rather than aggressive tackling who can also pass reasonably well out of defence. The distinction between this and a libero is that that the libero gets forward much more open play and is generally a much more creative than a typical CB
So thats a back 4 sweeper basically - Rio Ferdinand.
Yes, but he shouldn't be in the same category as Sammer and Beckenbauer as the latter performed very different role in their sides.
Agree, lets start a poll and all vote for option 2 and get done with it.
if you want a limited number of categories then he should, otherwise you end up with tons like us two.
Where would you put Nesta, Cannavaro, Rio, Ramos, Van Dijk, Thiago Silva, Koulibaly?
I thought xtraimmortal was Dearman's list. He was a weirdo though.
Complete centrebacks.
Will do.
I’ll try again in the evening but I’ve had some issues setting up the poll, maybe @Invictus will be able to.
Cannavaro stopper, Koulibaly need to see more of. The rest ball-playing.
Done.
Question: Why should I not put Figueroa and Nesta in both sweeper and stopper list? Examples like these make me want at least one open for all pure defensive skills list.
Ball player. Stopper. Ball player. Stopper. Stopper. Ball player. Stopper.
Gotta consider the forte.
This is getting way too complex.
True liberos will a very short list: Beckenbauer, Sammer, Koeman, Passarella
Same with true sweepers: Picchi, Schulz
Everyone else are Ball playing CBs: Baresi, Figueroa, Scirea, Shesternyov, Vasovic, Nesta, Rio etc etc.
I may have missed some names above, but I think all of the above can be combined into one category.
Just extending this idea a little more.
Have a list of 40 best defenders (pure defensive skills - all players eligible)
Have another list of 40 best defenders (ball playing skills - all players eligible)
Give a 75 percent weight to defending and 25 percent weight to ball playing. (The ratio can be debated. Maybe 80-20 or 70-30 can be options too)
Add points accumulated from both lists for each player.
Come up with a final combined list by sorting the added points. At least you can compare any two all time CB's rather than have a split list where no one can compare Cannavaro and Tresor.
Now that's an interesting idea. So give the first in each list 40 points and the bottom 1 point use the modifiers and then add together.
If we do with this I reckon we create the lists first then apply various modifying values to eliminate outliers (without testing it, that will almost certainly happen). That said I wouldn't go lower than 60% defending, I don't think even Pep would do that
60? I'd not give anything less than 70 to 75. Some might argue even 80. Anything below 70 is too less.
But yea, combining with math is the basic idea. I like the idea of testing with various ratios before coming up with final list.
That’s a good idea. We’re going closer and closer to xtraimmortal - they’ve also had weird equations for accessing the skill and performance level.
Do you reckon we should do the same for full-backs too? It would avoid debates over who is attacking and who isn't
Nah, I don't think that is necessary. It would create a weird list with Maldini not on the top.
I think people will find it way more easy with ranking fullbacks and wingback's in one set. With centre backs, it's way more difficult.
Easier to say Maldini > Facchetti > Krol > Brehme rather than say with Nesta, Kohler, Maldini, Passarella
That's probably true although I would still prefer attacking full-backs in a different list. I mean Victor Moses shouldn't be in a normal full-back list
He shouldn't be in any footballers list.
Defenders defend first. Attackers attack first. Simple as that. Facchetti was a better defender than any fullback bar Maldini regardless of his attack.
I'd put him, Nilton and Brehme all at par. Would be hard to differentiate between the trio.
@Joga Bonito you've listed Sepp Maier twice
It's going to be a complete mess with so many overlapping players.
Corrected.
Not a fan of the statistical division of defending and attacking. It’s subjective how it is apportioned out which defeats the purpose of splitting and combining it like that.
Agree there needs to be some division in the central defenders, we just need to ensure consensus on who should go where.
Agree there needs to be some division in the central defenders, we just need to ensure consensus on who should go where.
I agree. 95% of elite centre halves in the last 15 years are all rounders.
We could always have a wing backs list. Provided we accept there may be overlap with the FB lists. Not really arsed either way, the important part would be to be clear which all rounders go where.
Sounds to me like it’s used as a substitute for players with a defensive style based on zonal marking, covering and organisation and who also often use the ball well.feck me if i understand this ball-playing nonsense
Players like Maicon, and even Alves belong nowhere in a Top 20 discussion. Only few exceptions would be likes of Roberto Carlos and no point creating separate categories.
Folks, just to be clear, the original list does not mention "ball-playing CBs". It says:
Don't want to stand in the way of reshuffling the categories, just saying.
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What I don't like much is the idea of voting seperately on offensive & defensive skills, since I think players should be voted on as a whole. It would also almost certainly alter the results: A "libero" category would likely have Beckenbauer at #1, but a def/off split vote would certainly have Baresi over Beckenbauer, perhaps others too. For the love of football, there has to be one category that Beckenbauer can win.
So a rough (and debatable) label for those modern CBs who take a lead role in building up from the back (like Bonucci & Hummels), as opposed to "just" being adept on the ball (like Nesta). Second CB category would have been everyone else.
Don't want to stand in the way of reshuffling the categories, just saying.
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What I don't like much is the idea of voting seperately on offensive & defensive skills, since I think players should be voted on as a whole. It would also almost certainly alter the results: A "libero" category would likely have Beckenbauer at #1, but a def/off split vote would certainly have Baresi over Beckenbauer, perhaps others too. For the love of football, there has to be one category that Beckenbauer can win.