The likes of Ronaldinho were labelled as geniuses, R9 never described as an athletic player dispite being rapid and strong. Henry, another genius known purely for his technical ability. Rio Ferdinand always talked about more for technical ability and intelligence rather than being a physically superb defender. I could go on...Seedorf & Defoe both known for intelligence. The likes of Martial & Sane currently.
Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II
- Thread starter Sterling Archer
- Start date
You touch an important point, which is that it is subconscious and likely innocent in intent. In all likelihood, if someone points this out to Drury I bet he apologizes and genuinely feels badly.
But I'm not concerned that the man is a bad human. I want to highlight the institutional racism and deep rooted type of thoughts that linger in society today.
In this case, he doesn't just say they're athletic guys. He implies putting them in some sort of physical fight against each other , as if the football isn't enough. In this context he is calling them specimens to pit against each other. You don't hear this about white footballers. And that's because the racist didactic through history has always used words typically left for describing animals to refer to those of dark skinned complexion. And instead of that language being left behind a century ago , they have filtered into modern contexts.
He said it’s possible it’s subconscious, you’re putting forth that it’s unequivocally so. You’ve chosen to connect his factually correct statement with underlying racism. There’s a possibility you might be right, but then again you could be absolutely wrong and you’ve accused a man of racism and called it utterly shameful
It’s worrying that people seem to think that’s acceptable now.
Yes. I've accused him of saying something inappropriate and I stand by it. That kind of dialogue has to be rooted out. It's leftovers from hundreds of years of racism. It's time for it to go. Regardless of the man's intending for it to be racist or not he should be educated on the fact that it is. And many of us will no longer meekly withstand hearing it
Spot on
Despite what he said is entirely correct...
What kind of dialogue? They are two physical players, they are both athletes. They had both been challenging one another physically in the game. That’s all he said!
Quite clearly there is still some underlying stereotyping going on in football, and yes it does need addressing. That doesn’t mean you can call someone racist because it vaguely resembles that which could, or could not, be racist. The fact what he said was entirely correct doesn’t seem to be relevant to you.
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It's garbage like this which has led to the term losing all meaning.
Exactly.
As i said mate there are different possibilities here so i'm not going to make definitive statements about the thinking behind the guys comments, as i can't read his mind. You are free of course to interpret his comments however you feel.
Obviously there's a possibility there is underlying racism conscious or otherwise behind his comments and possibly nothing behind them at all, i think most people would accept that. With that in mind i think it may be over the top to start a discussion about whether or not the guy is guilty or racism based on these comments alone.
Wanting to educate people who may using racist language who are probably unaware they are causing offence is fine, most would welcome it. But there's a danger of going overboard and interpreting everything and anything as racism. All im saying is people need to be sure someone is saying something racist before they accuse them of it, these days i feel the term is thrown around a little too freely. Being accused of racism when you hold no such views is hurtful.
This. Some of the people on here are going absolutely mad and I mean that. Nowhere else do I read/hear the amount of alleged racism nonsense like I do here.
For sure, we need to be wary of going too far in the direction of political correctness. Whether or not this is a case of that - going too far - is why it makes for a good discussion.
Now I definitely don't intend to scapegoat one man, which is why I even titled it as a media stereotype and reference the article we all debated (with many of the same things being said on both sides) in the summer . When I talk about 'deep rooted' I mean big picture , more societal .
So here's a question - do you live in the states or UK or elsewhere? Race has become a much more sensitive and publicized issue in the US in recent years . So this debate becomes much more poignant and transcends just comments from a football game. It's as simple as this - there are many black and others of color who simply do not like this kind of description. They've made it apparent so how about just respecting that and not using the terms?
Here's an example from my personal life. The slang n word used in songs and movies. When I was younger I'd say it when singing songs out loud with friends. We would even use it similarly when referring to ourselves ' where are u my ...'. None of us is black. And it wasn't until high school when I started hanging out with a couple of black friends that it was put into context for me. They called me out on using it. They explained it in a couple of different ways that to be honest I wasn't sure how to take. I didn't mean anything racist by it! And if they were using it, didn't that mean it was ok and didn't have the negative connotation? It was also slightly different than the words I'd read about the history books. Plus one of my friends didnt care. But here's what it came down to - regardless of whether you agree one hundred percent, think others should be less sensitive or whatever, the issue and comcern has been pointed out. So I think it should be pointed out to those unaware, especially if on tv...and respected
I don't see anything wrong with someone referring to a player as a physical specimen. As long as its actually applied to a physical specimen and not the likes of Jonjo Shelvey or Joey Barton.
Pogba isn't even reliant on his strength when he plays. I hardly see him getting into duels, making himself a nuisance from corners, overpowering people etc. When was the last time he outmuscled someone I don't even remember? Pointing out the fact that hes 'big' and 'strong' in isolation isn't the problem here. He is. But what relation does that have to what's happening on the pitch? That's what I don't understand. He isn't overly physical on the pitch.
Makelele had a role named after him for his positional awareness, discipline and intelligence.
You don't remember him putting Dembele on his arse before crossing to Sanchez to start our comeback against Spurs?
This is nuts. Everyone relax a little. They’re both athletic players, racism is as much in the eye of the beholder as in the clumsy word of the neutral voice.
I must be watching a different pogba because i keep seeing comments like this about how skillful he is and he actually isnt very physical.
These last two seasons he has done some skillful stuff but nothing in line with what i would expect from any decent attacking midfielder, let alone uniteds key man.
He is however an expert at using his body to shield the ball. I've rarely seen him pushed off the ball and he regularly has 2-3 players around him as he holds them off.
Pogba at present (much to my dismay) is the perfect example of a player using his physicality to avoid engaging his brain. If he didn't he would be a bang average player. My only hope is he improves his intelligence, gets rid of the ego and shows some consistency with his ability to do things with the ball.
Simply isn't true. In fact, when he goes into his default mode of holding onto the ball for far too long and encourage the tackle, he then showcases his physicality. That's not all he has to his game, but he does have it.
Name me a black player on their level who did not get his due?
The one I can think of from the recent past was senna who was not labelled a beast but as a clever player on par with alonso. Similarly, barkeley and rooney were two white players labelled as physical beasts whose agression was their best quality.
Entire Burnley squads.
So you're saying it's ok if he's white but "murky waters" if he's black? Isn't that more racist than calling someone a "specimen"?
Suggesting people be treated differently because of their skin colour is real "murky waters". Where do you draw the line?
Aldair Boateng
Roberto Carlos Cafu
Seedorf Vieira
Henry Ronaldinho Pelé
Ronaldo Nazario
Roberto Carlos Cafu
Seedorf Vieira
Henry Ronaldinho Pelé
Ronaldo Nazario
Only physical specimens, i guess.
What? Pogba is incredibly technically gifted and is lauded for that all the time. He also happens to be a physical specimen. Yaya was the exact same way. Guy’s technique was impeccable. People are always looking for some to get upset about these days. The racist ones are the ones that are always trying to make benign comments about race.
Brilliantly put.
This will be the same Pogba who the commentators call incredibly gifted and undeniably talented in every match?
Bit of a reach for the OP, especially when some of the most gifted and celebrated players in the modern game have been black and have only every been talked about in regards to their incredible talents.
Bit of a reach for the OP, especially when some of the most gifted and celebrated players in the modern game have been black and have only every been talked about in regards to their incredible talents.
I do not agree what this commentator said was racist, let's start there.
Can't say much about the question if black players should be called specimen since English isn't my mother tongue and I can't really grasp the complete connotation of this phrase but I believe it is deluded to think that calling Pogba an athletic footballer is racism. I mean, even if it was unfair to him (which I doubt because he has many physical elements to his game in my eyes) it still doesn't have to be racial ideas that lead to this wrong evaluation. There are many white players who never really got credited for their good technique because their physicality overshadowed everything else and I've never heard anybody suggesting that this was due to their ethnicity.
I think it is respectable that people are so sensitive to it and it suggests that they are empathic beings who want to prevent the wrongdoings of the past but I also believe that it becomes a disservice to ethnic minorities if you take it too far. Positive discrimination exists and has bad consequences, too, because it is ammunition for populists and creates envy in other social groups.
I understand that the combination of certain phrases with certain contexts can be delicate but you have to be careful that this doesn't end in double standards. If it is a scandal to reduce a black player to the physical aspects of his game then it should also happen if a white player is affected.
I think it is respectable that people are so sensitive to it and it suggests that they are empathic beings who want to prevent the wrongdoings of the past but I also believe that it becomes a disservice to ethnic minorities if you take it too far. Positive discrimination exists and has bad consequences, too, because it is ammunition for populists and creates envy in other social groups.
I understand that the combination of certain phrases with certain contexts can be delicate but you have to be careful that this doesn't end in double standards. If it is a scandal to reduce a black player to the physical aspects of his game then it should also happen if a white player is affected.
This thread is absolutely cringeworthy. People the world over have to deal with *actual* racism. And you have this bullshit.
A reminder. Racism:
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism
"OMG he called him a specimen!"
You should be ashamed of yourself.
A reminder. Racism:
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism
"OMG he called him a specimen!"
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Isn’t being called a physical specimen, especially in comparison to other pro athletes, a massive compliment? It definitely is, but sadly due to inherent racism of some people, attributes often seen as more common among black people are seen as bad. The thread starter is almost deinfitely a massive racist as are all those who agree with him. The message here seems to be if you are labelled as something black people are often seen as then it’s negative.
Pointing out there are some words it's not okay to use to describe specifically black players is not racist. It's being aware of cultural context. Black men have historically been objectified using certain physical descriptions and it's now insensitive to use those same terms today. It really sucks that that is the case, but that is down to mistakes of those past which cannot be undone.
I keep seeing this point made in this thread, and it's quite inappropriate to imply someone is being racist for pointing this out, in my opinion. However I do agree it is wrong to label someone as definitely racist for describing a black player as a specimen, in a one-off isolated incident such as the OP. It could well be an honest description from someone unaware of the historical context involved.
Using your logic, it never will be undone. Due to a history of people being treated differently because of their skin colour, we need to continue treating people differently because of their skin colour. What could possibly go wrong?
I understand removing derogatory and racist words from everyone's vocabulary but then it shouldn't be ok to refer to anyone by that term, irrespective of skin colour.
In a perfect world yes, but you can't deny that it's simply not the case in todays world. I'm not suggesting that is ideal or even correct but it is what it is.
I don't think that it will never be undone either, but we're living in a time where systematic racism against black people at worst still exists, and at best is still fresh in living memory with consequences still being felt.
I completely acknowledge that but over compensating in the opposite direction is not the answer. It also completely trivialises racism when people jump up and down about something this petty.
To me, being labelled a racist is seen as shameful and not something I would ever want to be accused of. That is how it should be. If people get labelled racist for calling a fantastic athlete "athletic" then it will go from being a stigma that nobody wants to "PC gone mad whingers", which is a real shame.
All that will do is make things worse.
Agree 100% and you've hit the nail on the head for me. This was similar to my original point, really, but on the other side of the debate. Labelling someone as racist for pointing out some terms are not okay to describe black players specifically is not correct either.
I think we have a tendency in public discourse today to want to group everyone into one of two groups on opposite sides of the spectrum. In this particular debate on the extremes we have either;
- Example in OP is definitely racist
- There is nothing in this, and there is no wider issue in football either.
To me the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There is no discernible way we can label this as racist with certainty, but also we cannot dismiss this issue as something that 100% doesn't exist in football. I'd argue that most people lie somewhere between those two extremes, but sometimes the debate is framed as if most people are in one camp or the other. If you lie closer to one side you tend to put the people on the other side to the extreme (I tend to do this myself). This is all confused by a rather vague and isolated example in the OP, which could easily be nothing (which goes back to your point about overcompensating being wrong).
Agreed. Everything you have written there is completely fair.
My opinion on this is if treating people equally isn't the answer then the question is wrong.
Overcompensating to make up for historical discrimination is just perpetuating the problem and is extremely dangerous.
Are people aware that there's a lot of research done on this type of racism, and it's been demonstrated to be widespread time and again? And that people tend to associate not just black skin colour, but traditional black names too with athleticism/strength? I mean if you Google implicit stereotyping, you would immediately find dozens of research papers discussing this problem. I find it interesting that there are people dismissing this as if there's nothing there, and venturing on to complain about positive discrimination and white players too being victimised by the same association. In fact, this whole thread is very uncomfortable to read.
This. I have faced actual racism and I don't ever bother mentioning it to anyone because of the crap like this being labelled as "racist". If only people knew how much harm this does than benefit.
These things are true but in this case calling Pogba athletic, I mean give me a break. The guy is built like a tank and is what 6'4.
You think the word" Racism" has lost its meaning? You don't think there are degrees of racist behavior and that it can be subtle？
On one side there is slavery which is obvious on the other side there is crossing the street when u see a black person coming. Rascist behavior can be subconscious . The issue tackled in this thread has been researched for some time now. We are not making this stuff up.
Apparently people.dont know or choose to ignore.
By not mentioning it, you help complacency build and reduce awareness so that people think all is rosy. The fear or embarasment of publicly being shames as a victim is also a big deal. Its not just with racism. Take the sexual harassment stuff as well. There are parallels in women (and men) afraid to speak up and for so long when they did it was dismissed. Racism like some of these posters below are pointing out isn't just an extreme. The extent of the more subtle bits is not well known and appreciated enough. You're not a stronger man or woman for keeping quiet. You're letting others get away with it little by little. So many replies in in these threads show the level of dismissing , taking away the power of your voice in doing so. Changen the future of our society mate. Speak up.
Thank you thank you thank you