Hmm..unsure about this one. They are stating fscts, it's borderline. If they describe the vast majority of black players this way regardless of physique then definitely but there is truth behind what they're saying.
Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II
- Thread starter Sterling Archer
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Are there any white players who are huge oafs and the commentators dont call them out?
Crouch gets called awkward . He is just tall and isnt muscular. Carroll has been called clumsy or whatever. Certainly doesnt get a pass.
I'll take this a lot more seriously if there was a clear difference in how the commentators described very similar players based on their race.
Calling Pogba athletic as a stand alone statement isnt racist.
Crouch gets called awkward . He is just tall and isnt muscular. Carroll has been called clumsy or whatever. Certainly doesnt get a pass.
I'll take this a lot more seriously if there was a clear difference in how the commentators described very similar players based on their race.
Calling Pogba athletic as a stand alone statement isnt racist.
Stereotyping is rife in football(sports even), and it starts at a very young age. When it comes to black players does that incorporate race into that process, quite probably, it may not be an actively vicious mindset, but it is there.
I do think it happens to everyone to a point, coaches look for characteristics in a player and an easy way to differentiate is physical gifts. How often have you heard "Good touch for a big man", or seen the big guys stuck at the back, fast guys on the wing. The best set piece taker I have ever played with is a 6"3 white guy, every coach he he has ever had has initially fought with him, demanded he be in the box, just based on his height even though he is terrible in the air. Generally gives set piece duties to a smaller guy who can't deliver a decent ball, goal threat is gone and it takes the whole team lobbying on his behalf before it is changed.
Just to add, this got me thinking about my own mindset and how I stereotype players, or maybe profile is the better word. I play CB and when I play against a new team(no scouting going on) I tend to make an initial judgement on what type of player my direct opponent are likely to be based on their physical appearance. Big guy, probably be decent in the air, make sure to compete with him and be aware of flicks ons if he pulls to my partner. Shorter guy, probably has quicker feet, try to stop him turning, black striker in good shape, probably quicker than me, adjust initial positioning. Some of these turn out to be false and I adjust my game accordingly.
Is that racism?
I do think it happens to everyone to a point, coaches look for characteristics in a player and an easy way to differentiate is physical gifts. How often have you heard "Good touch for a big man", or seen the big guys stuck at the back, fast guys on the wing. The best set piece taker I have ever played with is a 6"3 white guy, every coach he he has ever had has initially fought with him, demanded he be in the box, just based on his height even though he is terrible in the air. Generally gives set piece duties to a smaller guy who can't deliver a decent ball, goal threat is gone and it takes the whole team lobbying on his behalf before it is changed.
Just to add, this got me thinking about my own mindset and how I stereotype players, or maybe profile is the better word. I play CB and when I play against a new team(no scouting going on) I tend to make an initial judgement on what type of player my direct opponent are likely to be based on their physical appearance. Big guy, probably be decent in the air, make sure to compete with him and be aware of flicks ons if he pulls to my partner. Shorter guy, probably has quicker feet, try to stop him turning, black striker in good shape, probably quicker than me, adjust initial positioning. Some of these turn out to be false and I adjust my game accordingly.
Is that racism?
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The comments are racist, like many others have said, black athletes are often only praised for thier physical attributes (strength, speed, size) rather than thier ability.
I don't think it's intentionally racist though. I think it's a hangover from how we used to hear commentary and analysis in the past. Because the implications of it haven't been addressed, it continues.
I consider myself "aware" of this sort of thing, yet in my mind I often see the primary attributes of black athletes as physical because that's how the media portray them to me and I don't do my own thinking.
I'm also uncomfortable with the use of the word beast. I think it's disproportionately used in football to describe black players.
I don't think it's intentionally racist though. I think it's a hangover from how we used to hear commentary and analysis in the past. Because the implications of it haven't been addressed, it continues.
I consider myself "aware" of this sort of thing, yet in my mind I often see the primary attributes of black athletes as physical because that's how the media portray them to me and I don't do my own thinking.
I'm also uncomfortable with the use of the word beast. I think it's disproportionately used in football to describe black players.
You know, I don't have have the strength to keep talking about this every time it comes up. So let me just try to understand it from your point of view.
Maybe I am just too sensitive about this. Let me ask you an honest question... When you think of Pogba as a footballer ,do you think of his size and speed first or his skill . I am actually curious.
When I think of Pogba and Ronaldo, Savic.. I notice their skill and rarely their size .
Every single match McTominay plays the commentators go on about his size but I guess that's ok because he's white right?
What the feck how is that racist? You can't say anything in this PC era. What a silly thread.
I think you are too sensitive. How can you rarely notice their size... Pogba's physique is his biggest blessing IMO, and that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say. He wouldn't be very effective if he had Mata's lack of size, strength and speed. He's not exactly Zidane skill wise.
It’s not racist for me. I’ve heard the same thing said about Ronaldo. I do agree there’s been a tendency to focus on the physical attributes of black players, above any technical ability, but in this instance the commentator is right.
Like that comparison between Morata and Lukaku of Lukaku just being a lump and Morata being intelligent. Can’t remember her name but she was saying it on radio one or 5 live.
The isolated comment isn't racist, no idea how anyone can say that. If the commentators in question regularly don't give credit to technical players who are black and instead only call them physical specimens or what have you, then you could say the comments have racist undertones.
It's not racism on purpose but I definitely see as a consequence of a sleeping racism
Why? It is stating facts, in what way is it racist? What is 'sleeping racism'?
How though? Like you I hear this and think "that's not on", but then I think "why?!?". It may have come from a slightly racist, old fashioned place, but the comment itself is surely objectively innocuous? It's all a bit "witch hunt for racists" at the moment..
How would people on here describe that Kouyate's game then?
Because I watched him the other night and I didn't see any intelligence or technique in his play. Sorry if that's racist.
Because I watched him the other night and I didn't see any intelligence or technique in his play. Sorry if that's racist.
It isn't racist, it's a valid opinion you could even apply to Pogba after that game, he kept losing the ball and didn't show his football intelligence very well.
There are loads of black Brazillian players who are constantly praised for their skill too.
Of course I notice the skill first. He may be tall for his position but I wouldn't say he's especially strong or athletic at least not more so than any elite footballer in the game. He doesn't use his physicallity in a special way. Pogba beats defenders and dominates games moreso with his grace and skill. He overraws opponents rather than just simply overpowering them. The midfield battles in the PL have a physicality that doesn't exist in other leagues so that gets noticed more but the player himself hardly relies on being strong.
I think there has been a tendency in the past to stereotype players, and I'm sure that hasn't dissipated completely.
However, Pogba is an excellent athlete. I think this is widely accepted to be the case. And he isn't an intelligent player. In fact, if it wasn't for his athletic qualities, I struggle to see how he would remotely be a £90 million footballer, as he shows an almost complete lack of basic awareness.
Also, I don't think this is limited to black players. Ronaldo is often described as a great athlete, whereas Messi is seen as being a football genius. But I don't believe that to be in any way unfair, as Ronaldo is an athletic specimen, and he also quite clearly does not have the skillset of Messi. No-one would deem this to be racist, so I can't really see why describing Pogba as a great athlete is racist.
The only issue on which I would disagree with the comments quoted in the OP is the suggestion that Pogba is a great player to watch. He isn't a great player to watch. He's a flashy, insubstantial showboater, with little tactical awareness, and often seemingly little desire to make more than a modicum of effort, who has spectacularly failed to live up to his billing, transfer fee, or apparent opinion of himself.
Barcelona supposedly had first option on Pogba and passed on him. I bet they thank their lucky stars that they didn't sign him.
However, Pogba is an excellent athlete. I think this is widely accepted to be the case. And he isn't an intelligent player. In fact, if it wasn't for his athletic qualities, I struggle to see how he would remotely be a £90 million footballer, as he shows an almost complete lack of basic awareness.
Also, I don't think this is limited to black players. Ronaldo is often described as a great athlete, whereas Messi is seen as being a football genius. But I don't believe that to be in any way unfair, as Ronaldo is an athletic specimen, and he also quite clearly does not have the skillset of Messi. No-one would deem this to be racist, so I can't really see why describing Pogba as a great athlete is racist.
The only issue on which I would disagree with the comments quoted in the OP is the suggestion that Pogba is a great player to watch. He isn't a great player to watch. He's a flashy, insubstantial showboater, with little tactical awareness, and often seemingly little desire to make more than a modicum of effort, who has spectacularly failed to live up to his billing, transfer fee, or apparent opinion of himself.
Barcelona supposedly had first option on Pogba and passed on him. I bet they thank their lucky stars that they didn't sign him.
I dont think that's a racist comment, but certainly inept or unintelligent comment hence the response.
It's a desperate attempt to hype up a nothing match, that didn't reference race in any way... and only spoke positively of the two players. Pogba's skill on the ball is obviously superior, so serves no purpose in attempting to pitch this as some thrilling contest. I actually think it's potentially more racist to assume racism in this case, than what was said. Who do you want them to talk about? Sanchez vs Carroll?
Sleeping racism is what I refer to easy clichés used to described members of certain communities. 99% of the time black players are talked about how they are physical specimens and not nearly often for their footballing intelligence. I thought Kouyaté was very smart in how he was shadowing and annoying Pogba, him being tall and strong weren't the only to compliment about his performance but that never got mentioned.
Cathegorizing is part of our life and we will have to accept it as it's a natural process and why not to call spade a spade? They are physical specimens and great athletes, they got it in genes. Why are people so offended by this, both players put in a great mostly physical battle in the middle of the pitch in that game - hence the comment. When Pogba makes some nice technical stuff he gets a lot of praise for that too. Too bad for him that he can have bad games like that and his reputation is suffering, if he was as good as he and all of us want I am sure he would get that praise, not just being physical. There are also players who are commentator's and media favourites and the commentary reflects on that too, and they say a lot of bull in general. If you get annoyed by that, switch to some commentary you don't understand. And by no chance I would call it racist, grow up and stop radicalise the discours.
This is quite an interesting discussion.
I’d say there’s a hint of truth to it, but it’s probably so deep rooted that it’s over done and then borderline/outright racist.
In our domestic league here in South Africa, a big majority of the local players are black. But South African black footballers, for the most part, are quite small and technical players, as opposed to the difference (on average) if an Angolan or Ivorian plays in our league - they’re usually much bigger physically, and for the most part, a little less technically gifted than our players. So sinilar stereotypes sort of exists, even for us, I’d day obviously in a non racial way.
There’s obviously not the case with everyone and each player would have to be analyzed on their own merit - which is seemingly not what’s happening as per the OP?
I don’t have much issue with describing Pogba and Kouyate as physical players - because they are both quite strong. It’s not as if being physical automatically excludes you being “technical” either. But I guess the problem comes in when being physical becomes the dominant description/trait to describe a big (black) player.
I’d say there’s a hint of truth to it, but it’s probably so deep rooted that it’s over done and then borderline/outright racist.
In our domestic league here in South Africa, a big majority of the local players are black. But South African black footballers, for the most part, are quite small and technical players, as opposed to the difference (on average) if an Angolan or Ivorian plays in our league - they’re usually much bigger physically, and for the most part, a little less technically gifted than our players. So sinilar stereotypes sort of exists, even for us, I’d day obviously in a non racial way.
There’s obviously not the case with everyone and each player would have to be analyzed on their own merit - which is seemingly not what’s happening as per the OP?
I don’t have much issue with describing Pogba and Kouyate as physical players - because they are both quite strong. It’s not as if being physical automatically excludes you being “technical” either. But I guess the problem comes in when being physical becomes the dominant description/trait to describe a big (black) player.
This Caf is so cringe whenever race is brought up.
- Some (not all) of the comments by commentators are ignorant to the fact black players like Pogba, Lukaku etc, have more than just athleticism in their game.
- There are Tall white midfielders in the game (like Matic for a good example),
who rely on strength a lot, but are also technically gifted, that aren't described as athletic or spoken about as strength being a leading factor of their game.
- This thread is valid and not ludicrous to suggest racist connotations or at the least strong stereotyping mainly due to the fact we are overlooking Pogba's game;
he is a player who like to hold up the ball with skill as opposed to sheer strength, he doesn't run box to box for 90min's, in fact that is one of the reasons many people on this site find him unconvincing.
Plus he tends to lose a lot of duels, can someone please pull a stat on this?
If you are going to argue against the OP and the consensus of this thread, prove that Pogba's game is reliant on athleticism, as opposed to skill,
I do not agree commentators are overtly being racist, nor do I agree that it's an agenda, but I feel it's a gross oversight and ignorance when it comes to many tall black players to constantly refer to their athleticism, when their athleticism is not their greatest asset.
Reminds me of the commentator on the Zaire '74 infamous free-kick, his quote was "a moment of African innocence". But that was then and this is now, I don't see how Drury can keep sliding with such comments in 2018.
Guess some in here don't qwhite understand, they aren't qwhite as sensitive to it.
To be fair Pogba's physicality is one of his only redeaming features over the last 2 seasons. Against what i thought we were getting, the only area he has regularly impressed is his ability to keep hold of the ball. Whilst this in part his dribbling, an observation is actually more how he uses his upper body strength to keep people at bay.
If we were talking about Viera or Toure i think there would be a point as they relied less on their build but were big guys. But Pogba needs to show the skill (which he is capable of) more regularly for me. Perhaps it is a sign of his inconsistancy or my frustration with him but frankly i think his skill is mostly hype.
Paul McGrath was always talked about for his game intelligence and reading of the game, as was Rio. Gullit was always talked about in those terms. While I agree the ‘physical’ is always the cliche about many black players I have to call something out about Pog - he lacks game intelligence - am I allowed say that? It’s nothing to do with the colour of his skin.
Thats it. Made similar point in post above but think you identified it better. He does have ridiculous skill at times so my comment is harsh. He just isn't intelligent with it and is too focussed on himself.
I think there is a legitimate point at times of black players having their skill ignored and only focussing on physicality. But it doesn't always happen. Rio was recognized as the rolls royce and vidic the rock when Rio was perhaps stronger. In these cases, Rio's supremacy, the ease with which he played didnt open the door to any lazy stereotype.
Luckily with pogba he is young and i think you can aquire intelligence with maturity. Hopefully he will grow into the man and leader we need him to be in the same way lukaku looks like he has taken on the mantel of jose's on field sergeant.
British players get a similar treatment on this forum.
So some people don't understand because of the colour of their skin is what you're saying?
He was describing two 6'+ well built midfielders having a bit of a physical battle. Was he supposed to describe it as a majestic graceful ballet fought with hyper intelligent speed of thought? They spent 90 minutes shoving each other and not doing much worthy of praise with the ball.
Pogba is a very skilful player with a great range of passing and a good shot from distance. He's also not very intelligent with it a lot of the time and he's not using it to his full potential as he can needlessy over complicate things, show boat when it's not appropriate and dwell on the ball. His athleticism gets him out of trouble at times and can be a great help to him. He's brilliant on his day, but can be bloody awful when he's not on it. None of that is racist, it's describing Paul Pogba as I've seen him over the last two years. It becomes racist if I have to leave out or only add in certain parts because he's black, but the simple fact of the matter is he's 6'3'', quick and strong and I'm not going to pretend he isn't athletic.
If you hear a commentator describe players as athletic or physical and immediately get upset because that player is black, maybe you're the problem. Do you get upset when people say McTominay is only in the team because of his physicallity?
Possibly the best player ever was a black Brazilian. No one has ever said Pele was 'athletic'. Athletic has zero to do with race, it body type. Overly sensitive Americanism of sports.
Commentators remarking on two really athletic players being great athletes is racist? If the comments were directed at Shaun Wright Phillips and Jay Jay Okocha there might be something in it, but people mention Pogba's athleticism and Lukaku's power because they are some of the best attributes those players have.
Not so sure the accusation of racism sticks so much as lazy stereotyping based on physical appearance (all of the players of African descent that have been mentioned so far are fairly muscular and tall). The same tag applied to these players would not be leveled at Lloyd Dyer or Patrice Evra nor would it be applied to Samuel Eto'o.
Yes it is lazy stereotyping to describe their game as solely based on those attributes, but you can't say those attributes aren't there (speed, Strength, height).
Specimen is a dodgy word to use with some uncomfortable connotations, however both Pogba and Kouyate as well as Drogba and Lukaku all have muscular physiques and are tall and have some pace, so the term athletic is always going to be used somewhere in most descriptions of them, however you would hope that isn't in the minds of most the be all and end all of their abilities as both Drogba and Pogba are very technically gifted players.
Yes it is lazy stereotyping to describe their game as solely based on those attributes, but you can't say those attributes aren't there (speed, Strength, height).
Specimen is a dodgy word to use with some uncomfortable connotations, however both Pogba and Kouyate as well as Drogba and Lukaku all have muscular physiques and are tall and have some pace, so the term athletic is always going to be used somewhere in most descriptions of them, however you would hope that isn't in the minds of most the be all and end all of their abilities as both Drogba and Pogba are very technically gifted players.
Are people really getting upset that someone said Pogba and Kouyate are good physical specimens? Jesus, get a fcking life
I blame Adebayo Akinfenwa.
Is he? I'm really not sure. It's obvious that he's an intelligent person but I wouldn't classify him as an intelligent player myself.
I am sure that's a sound advice to those unfortunate enough to be targets of racism and feeling offended by such comments. Get a fecking life. Who would've thought?
