Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II

It's more to do with lazy punditry and commenting in general than anything else. You hear it week after week. The same old tired cliches about the same old subject matter. Same platitudes whether it's in regards to a player, a team or a manger. I don't particularly think it's anything more insidious than that. Well, certainly in this example above anyway.

Speaking specifically about football in this country and how pundits commentate on it; it's just lazy analysis.
 
The Firestarter said:
You don't seem understand the connotations of the word specimen.
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I don't think I do either. There's a guy at my work who we call "the specimen" (he's always in the gym, eats terribly boring food all the time and looks like a Men's Health model). I just know it to mean a really muscle bound bloke.

Am I being an accidental racist?
 
Dante said:
British players get a similar treatment on this forum.
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True, and when you think about it, football is rife with stereotypes — racial, cultural and national — old and new — and they can be quite pernicious for those that don't fit the preconceived mold in a precise way. Spaniards are supposed to be small and nifty as a rule of thumb (even Ander was classified by some as a techno-midget despite having more in common with stereotypical English midfielders), Brazilians attackers are (or at least were) joyous proponents of the dazzling Joga Bonito style but quite high-maintenance and flighty and their defenders are terrible in terms of their actual defensive skill set (and curiously enough, Pogba's skill set would be celebrated if he was a Brazilian - rather than a Frenchman - and there'd be less of a focus on his “physical specimen” status), Germans are/were efficient and determined with great fighting spirit but rather uninspiring and mechanical, Italian teams are always defensive with a Catenaccio spirit and the players are theatrical cheats, Latin/African players are mercenaries, the handful of Asian players in top clubs illicit a patronizing and dismissive LOWUT response for the most part — by virtue of being neither “physical specimens” nor technically fantastic, etc. Wrt. Pogba, another thing that always grates is that folks had this lazy idea that he's the second coming of Vieira as a box-to-box battler because of superficial similarities and the fact that he's French — and that lingers on even though he's more of a skillful and technically gifted player from midfield, first and foremost — and made his name as one at Juventus.
 
The BlackGaijin said:
Jesus dude.Its ok if you don't agree but come on.
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I honestly find this whole debate pretty stupid. Dangerous almost. Commentators can't comment on the athleticism of athletes now without being branded as racists. Calling someone racist is a pretty serious accusation.
 
Isn't Ronaldo nearly always described as a physical specimen. Or athletic and powerful. Despite him having more obvious talents.
 
duffer said:
I don't think I do either. There's a guy at my work who we call "the specimen" (he's always in the gym, eats terribly boring food all the time and looks like a Men's Health model). I just know it to mean a really muscle bound bloke.

Am I being an accidental racist?
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No. But is he black? I think thats where its murky waters. I think the example in the thread isnt completely clear cut, but using those certain buzzwords like "specimen" with a black player is going to raise eyebrows.
 
Ekeke said:
No. But is he black? I think thats where its murky waters. I think the example in the thread isnt completely clear cut, but using those certain buzzwords like "specimen" with a black player is going to raise eyebrows.
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It's hard to keep up. Specimen is a racist term now. Noted.
 
duffer said:
I don't think I do either. There's a guy at my work who we call "the specimen" (he's always in the gym, eats terribly boring food all the time and looks like a Men's Health model). I just know it to mean a really muscle bound bloke.

Am I being an accidental racist?
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That's a different context.
 
So Peter Drury and Andy Townsend are racists now according to RedCafe posters. For saying Pogba and Kouyate are good physical specimens. Lock them up.
 
Ekeke said:
Well I dont know, perhaps you could go find the nearest black man and call him a specimen and tell us how he responded.
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The term has long been applied to humans of all races.
 
So the other day an “expert” on exactly what I don’t know, said that all baby’s need to give consent before having there nappy changed..........that’s were this thread has descended
 
Ekeke said:
No. But is he black? I think thats where its murky waters. I think the example in the thread isnt completely clear cut, but using those certain buzzwords like "specimen" with a black player is going to raise eyebrows.
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I genuinely never even considered there was a racial element to the term at all. The "specimen" at my work is not black.

When I see someone like Ronaldo or Akinfenwa take their shirt off so everyone can drink in their pecs, I'll often think or say "that's a specimen" without even a thought of their race, they're all vain twats to me!
 
duffer said:
I genuinely never even considered there was a racial element to the term at all. The "specimen" at my work is not black.

When I see someone like Ronaldo or Akinfenwa take their shirt off so everyone can drink in their pecs, I'll often think or say "that's a specimen" without even a thought of their race, they're all vain twats to me!
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Yup. Its just one of those things we're used to and havent questioned. But that goes with many things that people are questioning today.

Like I said previously I dont think its a clear example here because they do happen to be athletic players. Its just that they arent only that and there has tended to be this kind of stereotyping in sports in the past.

If it was Pogba and another black player who isnt particularly known for being physical then it would be a much easier case.
 
I fear the label 'racist' is thrown around so quickly and liberally these days it will lose some of its power. Maybe at a stretch some stereotyping involved but both players are in fine physical shape. Should be something to be proud of. I'd be elated if someone described me in such a way.
 
duffer said:
I genuinely never even considered there was a racial element to the term at all. The "specimen" at my work is not black.

When I see someone like Ronaldo or Akinfenwa take their shirt off so everyone can drink in their pecs, I'll often think or say "that's a specimen" without even a thought of their race, they're all vain twats to me!
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Same here. Would also attribute that to Ibra. When i think of Ibra i think strong and athletic. Despite the fact that there's obviously more to him than that.
 
Ravelation said:
f you are going to argue against the OP and the consensus of this thread, prove that Pogba's game is reliant on athleticism, as opposed to skill, I do not agree commentators are overtly being racist, nor do I agree that it's an agenda, but I feel it's a gross oversight and ignorance when it comes to many tall black players to constantly refer to their athleticism, when their athleticism is not their greatest asset.
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Where did the commentator say Pogbas game is reliant on physicality?
Have to say, you'd pay to watch Kouyate against Pogba, wouldn't you? ... Those are two of the liveliest, most athletic specimens in our league. Great athletes the pair of them.
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I'm under no illusion these generalisations exist, but on this occasion, it seems to me to be a mere observation on what was actually happening in the game. There was a bit of a battle going on between the two of them.
 
duffer said:
I genuinely never even considered there was a racial element to the term at all. The "specimen" at my work is not black.

When I see someone like Ronaldo or Akinfenwa take their shirt off so everyone can drink in their pecs, I'll often think or say "that's a specimen" without even a thought of their race, they're all vain twats to me!
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I think we're in a strange time. White people under 40 have generally been taught from childhood to understand that all people are equal and don't see any differences between black people and white people or any other race for that matter. We treat them all the same. But now were being bombarded with the idea that other races are actually different and should be treated differently. Calling a white person a physical specimen is ok. But calling a black person isn't. It's now considered racist to treat all people the same
 
POF said:
Commentators remarking on two really athletic players being great athletes is racist? If the comments were directed at Shaun Wright Phillips and Jay Jay Okocha there might be something in it, but people mention Pogba's athleticism and Lukaku's power because they are some of the best attributes those players have.
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Aye. Exactly.
 
ivaldo said:
Where did the commentator say Pogbas game is reliant on physicality?


I'm under no illusion these generalisations exist, but on this occasion, it seems to me to be a mere observation on what was actually happening in the game. There was a bit of a battle going on between the two of them.
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Kouate was on a man marking job it looked like.
 
SteveW said:
I think we're in a strange time. White people under 40 have generally been taught from childhood to understand that all people are equal and don't see any differences between black people and white people or any other race for that matter. We treat them all the same. But now were being bombarded with the idea that other races are actually different and should be treated differently. Calling a white person a physical specimen is ok. But calling a black person isn't. It's now considered racist to treat all people the same
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You seem to be implying that people no longer get stereotyped due to the colour of their skin and/or racism is no longer an issue. This is clearly not the case.

The OP seems a bit over the top (to me, anyway) but a lot of the responses are surprisingly wide of the mark too.
 
SteveW said:
Elaborate please
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Nobody is saying that it's out of order to call someone white an athlete but not someone who is black. To think that is you being a) stupid or b) ignorant for the purpose of wumming. The argument is the manner in which black and white athletes are portrayed in the media by pundits and commentators alike. When looking at footballers a lazy and ignorant stance by many is to suggest that black players possess a physical prowess unmatched by their counterparts, completely ignoring the other aspects of their game such as someone like Yaya Toure who was technically excellent.

It's common for them to attribute terms like "glides past players" in terms of white footballers compared to black footballers also which is a slight tweak in commentary because it's a stereotype in how they're perceived to be built.

In regards to the OP I don't think that the commentator was being intentionally racist in his use of the word specimen, it's a result of the environment he works in where it's a common theme to use these buzzwords when looking at certain races/nationalities and it's wrong.
 
SirAF said:
Not to nitpick, but Pogba isn’t that muscular - he’s just ripped as feck.

And yes, the OP is correct, imo.
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Of course he is muscular, he pushes pretty much any player off the ball when tussling. He is big and strong. I don’t understand how making a comment about a players physique is racist. Yes there is times of racism in sport but in my opinion this is not one of them.
 
SilentWitness said:
Nobody is saying that it's out of order to call someone white an athlete but not someone who is black. To think that is you being a) stupid or b) ignorant for the purpose of wumming. The argument is the manner in which black and white athletes are portrayed in the media by pundits and commentators alike. When looking at footballers a lazy and ignorant stance by many is to suggest that black players possess a physical prowess unmatched by their counterparts, completely ignoring the other aspects of their game such as someone like Yaya Toure who was technically excellent.

It's common for them to attribute terms like "glides past players" in terms of white footballers compared to black footballers also which is a slight tweak in commentary because it's a stereotype in how they're perceived to be built.

In regards to the OP I don't think that the commentator was being intentionally racist in his use of the word specimen, it's a result of the environment he works in where it's a common theme to use these buzzwords when looking at certain races/nationalities and it's wrong.
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Oh so it’s covert racism? That explains it all then.

I’m 43 and in all that I have never ever heard anybody bring up the word “specimen” or the context of the word as racist.
You can write it in all the ways you want to justify what the OP is insinuating. It’s not racism in anyway shape or form.

I will tell you this, I know for a FACT that Man City and the way they went about searching for youth players was: young, black, African, athletic,
They believed it was easier to turn an athlete into a footballer.
That was until Txiki joined city and the targets changed due to the Messi, iniesta, xavi era.
They decided it was better to search for young, European, smaller, technical players.

This thread is an embarrassment to humanity. It’s insulting to all the people in the world who fight, on a daily basis, against racism.
Not just black people, racism is not just about black People.
Ronaldo is Portuguese, he is olive skinned and yes he is a beast, a perfect athletic specimen.
So is that racist according to the OP?
 
BigdaftGorby said:
Oh so it’s covert racism? That explains it all then.

I’m 43 and in all that I have never ever heard anybody bring up the word “specimen” or the context of the word as racist.
You can write it in all the ways you want to justify what the OP is insinuating. It’s not racism in anyway shape or form.

I will tell you this, I know for a FACT that Man City and the way they went about searching for youth players was: young, black, African, athletic,
They believed it was easier to turn an athlete into a footballer.
That was until Txiki joined city and the targets changed due to the Messi, iniesta, xavi era.
They decided it was better to search for young, European, smaller, technical players.

This thread is an embarrassment to humanity. It’s insulting to all the people in the world who fight, on a daily basis, against racism.
Not just black people, racism is not just about black People.
Ronaldo is Portuguese, he is olive skinned and yes he is a beast, a perfect athletic specimen.
So is that racist according to the OP?
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Expected, with such posts in it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You seem to be implying that people no longer get stereotyped due to the colour of their skin and/or racism is no longer an issue. This is clearly not the case.

The OP seems a bit over the top (to me, anyway) but a lot of the responses are surprisingly wide of the mark too.
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I'm very aware that stereotypes exist. I've raised the same point on many occasions myself actually. It's widespread in football. Black players are definitely seen by many as just athletic and not intelligent as footballers etc. It's worth discussing

I'm just not sure the debate is being framed properly. I don't think we can call people racist for saying a good athlete is a good athlete. It's a really strong accusation to make about anybody and it's thrown around way too easily these days. I think that's dangerous. How far do we go with this? Do we get to the point where commentators no longer comment on the athleticism of athletes if they happen to be black. If calling a black player a physical specimen is racist should commentators be punished for it? And is it right that we should be using different words to describe players of different races? Is that not kind of dodgy in itself?
 
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