Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II

[Fortitude]

Anyone has the right to be offended about anything they so choose but over compensating to such an extreme and looking for underlying racist connotations when they don't really exist is extremely dangerous.

It's likely that in the very near future an entire generation will associate "racism" with the "PC gone mad" brigade who throw the term around so flippantly and try to find racism in the most innocent of comments. That is the real shame for those who have suffered in the past.

I'm sorry, but if you know your history, you just can't say it doesn't really exist in context to this used in the way it was. I also don't think this can be flippantly dismissed in the sense that there is a very real and very dark past attached to certain connotations of that combination of words.

I don't think, even those with the right to be offended, will be hurriedly calling up the complaints board for Sky or Ofcom. For a number of reasons, mainly that I doubt Drury even realised he could be causing offence. In the grand scheme of things, this issue isn't the most pressing when it comes to racially egregious actions, but it would be 'nice' if somewhere down the line, when other issues are dealt with, this kind of phraseology is removed from the modern lexicon entirely.

I'm not one for the PC gone mad nonsense - there's things that should and should not be said, and just because they've been permissible in the past, it doesn't mean they were ever OK.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I agree. I just think we're getting to a point where even harmless language is being described as racist. That's bringing us towards a place where instead of transcending race and treating everybody as equals we will need to become acutely aware of race for fear of saying the wrong thing. It means we need to start seeing black footballers, white footballers, Asians footballers etc instead of just footballers. Taken to it's logical conclusion we would likely end up using different sets of prescribed safe adjectives for players of different races, from different countries, of different religions etc.

And in doing this you end up being unable to accurately describe the individual. Pogba is a terrific athlete however you have to avoid mentioning this. Because by the logic being used here Pogba is no longer an individual, he's a black man, and it's racial stereotyping to comment on a black man's athleticism. That's both wrong and stupid. Many black athletes are very proud of their athleticism and athletic achievements. As such it's nobody's place to say they can be praised or admired for these qualities and achievements. Only somebody with a warped mind could turn such praise into some sort of reference to oppression or slavery. Ade Akifenwa isn't calling himself a slave or an animal when he wears his beast mode t-shirts. Why assume Pogba and Kouyate would/or should be offended?

One or two people on a forum cannot speak for an entire race of people. If these people feel offended by a word or phrase that's a shame for them but that's all. If in time, a consensus was reached that the phrase "physical specimen" was indeed racist people would become aware of it and it's usage would decrease. That's how language evolves. That hasn't happened. I don't think it will because most people have the common sense to recognise the difference between racism and accurate race neutral description.

It is not harmless. And the consensus has already been reached that it is racist. So why are people still excusing it? The first reply to the OP is a key and Peele sketch where one of the first examples of this is the word 'specimen' and nothing else.

In the match , Drury goes one step worse than the sketch! He wants to 'pay to watch these two specimens at it'. He's not just saying theyre athletic.

@Fortitude I think many posters are replying after reading just the thread title. That or they are deliberately ignoring the pay to fight part and certainly haven't acknowledged the historical connection you and a few others rightly reference. It's just being dismissed . That's the big hurdle now - denial. And it will take continued efforts and patience to change.

Edit:
I'm curious what many here thought of the movie Get out...I genuinely wonder if some here were offended by it or didn't truly understand the commentary

 

[Fridge chutney]

Get a grip? Is that covert bullying?
Or does that not apply in this case?

If you think that me telling you to "get a grip" in response to your comment that this thread is "an embarrassment to humanity" then surely you must consider yourself to be bullying the OP by making such statements in the first place. I also never raised the topic of bullying nor made any commetary around the subject, so your question about whether bullying applies confuses me. It is both without context and divergent from the topics at hand.

Don’t you need to be sympathetic to my needs and opinions?

Sympathetic to your needs? What are you on about? This is an online forum and none of us need to be here.

I can be sympathetic to your opinions except when they are mired in hyperbole. By using hyperbole to make a point it weakens the point. By claiming that this thread is an embarrassment to humanity it actually demonstrates that you are not sympathetic to other people's opinions so why should people extend you the same courtesy?

 

[Fortitude]

It is not harmless. And the consensus has already been reached that it is racist. So why are people still excusing it? The first reply to the OP is a key and Peele sketch where one of the first examples of this is the word 'specimen' and nothing else.

In the match , Drury goes one step worse than the sketch! He wants to 'pay to watch these two specimens at it'. He's not just saying theyre athletic.

@Fortitude I think many posters are replying after reading just the thread title. That or they are deliberately ignoring the pay to fight part and certainly haven't acknowledged the historical connection you and a few others rightly reference. It's just being dismissed . That's the big hurdle now - denial. And it will take continued efforts and patience to change.

Edit:
I'm curious what many here thought of the movie Get out...I genuinely wonder if some here were offended by it or didn't truly understand the commentary

It's a running theme here whenever this subject, in any variation, comes round. It's not the first nor will be the last time it's played out. You can replace the talking heads with the invariably new ones who will repeat similar views, but the theme will remain, as it always does.

Agree; efforts and acknowledgement.

 

[shamans]

Actually, it's an excellent case study, like countless others on the site, when race and racism is brought up.

Some of these posts show how ingrained and layered the issue is, like an onion, a really rotten onion.

You're dismissive, yet you did hear the bit where he said he'd pay to see these two 'go at it'? As @Sterling Archer stated in post #159.

You are aware this is what slavers used to do in the pits and make a fortune from and why the connotation, although distant, still carries weight from a bygone era?

Perhaps you're showing your own ignorance by dismissing something probably said with no ill-intent, but still carrying it, that was picked up on by enough people for it to be a point raised, perhaps not, if however you've posted what you have without understanding of the full connotation, you shouldn't be dismissing it or acting as a spokesman for an entire race. On the other hand, if you have understood the history behind such a thing and still posted what you have, I'm rather bemused by your stance.

It wasn't just the use of specimen that would raise eyebrows; it was what came immediately after it in relation to the term, that would.

Drury mightn't have said it with any ill-meaning or intent, and he probably doesn't even register such a thing as offensive, but like it or not, 'specimens' going up against each other for a paying audience has 100's of years of backstory behind it that has nothing to do with professional sport. Ignorance to that fact doesn't wash it away, so those using only the last 50 years or the context of professional sport and dismissing anything but that are displaying a narrow viewpoint at best and a complete lack of awareness of historical context at worst.

The thing is your point (which is a weak one) fails because commentators use the same words - specimen, go at it - even describing white, asian, or whatever players.

I think the atmosphere has shifted enough to where you would be taken more seriously now. Take the incident from Yale University earlier this week - a black student fell asleep in a study lounge . Another student called the police, who came and confronted her about needing to make sure she was in fact a student with proof, despite the girl saying she was. It was all quite embarrassing. It would also typically be swept under the rug or even not mentioned by the victim herself. But she spoke up. And she has received so much support.

You have many people who acknowledge the subtle and want to change all of it for the better.

So speak up. And when you see so many in a thread like this , don't add to those dismissing it. Perhaps you as an individual don't find the language used by the pundits to be offensive. Know that there are many of color and not that do take offense. Stand up for them.

The world has limited resources and big problems. I am not going to contribute to bickering over benign comments Peter Drury made when blacks and minorities across America and Europe are genuinely being oppressed.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

If you think that me telling you to "get a grip" in response to your comment that this thread is "an embarrassment to humanity" then surely you must consider yourself to be bullying the OP by making such statements in the first place. I also never raised the topic of bullying nor made any commetary around the subject, so your question about whether bullying applies confuses me. It is both without context and divergent from the topics at hand.


Sympathetic to your needs? What are you on about? This is an online forum and none of us need to be here.

I can be sympathetic to your opinions except when they are mired in hyperbole. By using hyperbole to make a point it weakens the point. By claiming that this thread is an embarrassment to humanity it actually demonstrates that you are not sympathetic to other people's opinions so why should people extend you the same courtesy?

Well wrote, I should of put white text in just to explain the point I was making. Because you obviously didn’t get it.

 

[Fortitude]

The thing is your point (which is a weak one) fails because commentators use the same words - specimen, go at it - even describing white, asian, or whatever players.

Examples of commentators saying they'd pay to watch two 'whatever' specimens go at it, please.

Saying a point(s) is weak, whilst circumventing it entirely, means you shouldn't address it/them?

 

[BigdaftGorby]

Examples of commentators saying they'd pay to watch two 'whatever' specimens go at it, please.

Saying a point(s) is weak, whilst circumventing it entirely, means you shouldn't address it/them?

the commentator didn’t say that though did he?
The poster you are responding to clearly put a comma between specimen and go at it.
Again context. You can’t change it to suit your agenda.
While we are at it I’d like to see some evidence that black slaves were solely called specimens.

 

[Green_Red]

Don't agree that there's anything in it. You don't see many footballers as athletically well built as Pogba. The guy is an athletic specimen, as are Ronaldo, Phelps etc. Could easily see it being said about them too.

If you're well built and able to physically impose yourself on the game, which Pogba obviously does (as can Lukaku), then I don't why it's an issue to suggest that they're physically dominant. It's obviously a part of both their games.

I agree, as soon as I read the op I thought about white specimens, McGregor, Arnold Terminator, Phelps.

Someone said above on page 1 the blacker a player gets the less technically gifted and more physical the comments about them become... I never heard anyone refer to Ronaldinho, Rivaldo or Ronaldo as "physical specimens" so I'm not sure where that came from, or how informed it is.

The level of ignorance around the racism debates on here is astounding. People are being called out because they used specimen as if they were trying to sell the guy at a slave market. Its a fecking word, get fecking less PC ffs.

 

[Fortitude]

the commentator didn’t say that though did he?
The poster you are responding to clearly put a comma between specimen and go at it.
Again context. You can’t change it to suit your agenda.
While we are at it I’d like to see some evidence that black slaves were solely called specimens.

yes he did.

 

[Kopral Jono]

I agree. I just think we're getting to a point where even harmless language is being described as racist. That's bringing us towards a place where instead of transcending race and treating everybody as equals we will need to become acutely aware of race for fear of saying the wrong thing. It means we need to start seeing black footballers, white footballers, Asians footballers etc instead of just footballers. Taken to it's logical conclusion we would likely end up using different sets of prescribed safe adjectives for players of different races, from different countries, of different religions etc.

And in doing this you end up being unable to accurately describe the individual. Pogba is a terrific athlete however you have to avoid mentioning this. Because by the logic being used here Pogba is no longer an individual, he's a black man, and it's racial stereotyping to comment on a black man's athleticism. That's both wrong and stupid. Many black athletes are very proud of their athleticism and athletic achievements. As such it's nobody's place to say they can be praised or admired for these qualities and achievements. Only somebody with a warped mind could turn such praise into some sort of reference to oppression or slavery. Ade Akifenwa isn't calling himself a slave or an animal when he wears his beast mode t-shirts. Why assume Pogba and Kouyate would/or should be offended?

One or two people on a forum cannot speak for an entire race of people. If these people feel offended by a word or phrase that's a shame for them but that's all. If in time, a consensus was reached that the phrase "physical specimen" was indeed racist people would become aware of it and it's usage would decrease. That's how language evolves. That hasn't happened. I don't think it will because most people have the common sense to recognise the difference between racism and accurate race neutral description.

Brilliant post and fully agree on bolded bit. You do wonder sometimes who the intolerant ones are.

It is not harmless. And the consensus has already been reached that it is racist. So why are people still excusing it? The first reply to the OP is a key and Peele sketch where one of the first examples of this is the word 'specimen' and nothing else.

In the match , Drury goes one step worse than the sketch! He wants to 'pay to watch these two specimens at it'. He's not just saying theyre athletic.

@Fortitude I think many posters are replying after reading just the thread title. That or they are deliberately ignoring the pay to fight part and certainly haven't acknowledged the historical connection you and a few others rightly reference. It's just being dismissed . That's the big hurdle now - denial. And it will take continued efforts and patience to change.

Edit:
I'm curious what many here thought of the movie Get out...I genuinely wonder if some here were offended by it or didn't truly understand the commentary

Consensus? I certainly wasn't around when it was announced. 'Specimen' is an ambiguous term that is often used for footballers with distinctive characteristics; Andy Carroll for his size, Peter Crouch for his height, Cristiano Ronaldo and Paul Pogba for their athleticism. It's not 'beast' or 'monster', words that have clear and unambiguous negative undertones.

Examples of commentators saying they'd pay to watch two 'whatever' specimens go at it, please.

Saying a point(s) is weak, whilst circumventing it entirely, means you shouldn't address it/them?

Let's face it: no one would bat an eyelid if a commentator describes a physical battle between Jaap Stam and Duncan Ferguson as 'two specimens going at it'. The problem with some people is that they see everything with a racial context. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not one who thinks we should 'never see colour' and, for example, it should be All Lives Matter instead of Black Lives Matter because institutionalised racism is very, very real. That said, I feel it's a dangerous precedent if one starts to take issues with something as ambiguous as this for it dilutes the severity of genuine instances of racism when they happen.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

yes he did.

Commentator 1: "Have to say, you'd pay to watch Kouyate against Pogba, wouldn't you? ... Those are two of the liveliest, most athletic specimens in our league. Great athletes the pair of them."

Don’t be lazy.

Not “go at it”
And not “specimens go at it “

 

[VeevaVee]

I agree, as soon as I read the op I thought about white specimens, McGregor, Arnold Terminator, Phelps.

Someone said above on page 1 the blacker a player gets the less technically gifted and more physical the comments about them become... I never heard anyone refer to Ronaldinho, Rivaldo or Ronaldo as "physical specimens" so I'm not sure where that came from, or how informed it is.

The level of ignorance around the racism debates on here is astounding. People are being called out because they used specimen as if they were trying to sell the guy at a slave market. Its a fecking word, get fecking less PC ffs.

I just feel it undermines the goal of less division. It feels to me like it's looking for issue that isn't there at the wrong end of the spectrum and vilifying people unnecessarily, which can lead to more division and tiptoeing instead of really helping.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Funny how you googled “Blackman and specimen”
But didn’t read the whole article!
Poor and lazy argument my friend.
Black men and slaves where sold as “specimens” to up and coming young doctors during the slave trade. To experiment on.
So were children, women, thieves, vagabonds, indigenous people, disabled, poor,prisoners etc etc
It wasn’t solely slaves, but slaves were in abundance and easy attainable at the time.
Think before you try a history lesson you do a bit of research.

What are you on about? Google what? Living up to your username I see.

It goes much further than just doctors experiments, I suggest you try again. Take your own advice and do some googling or read a book. Your ignorance is astounding.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

How black slaves were routinely sold as 'specimens' to ambitious white doctors


The history of human experimentation is as old as the practice of medicine and in the modern era has always targeted disadvantaged, marginalised, institutionalised, stigmatised and vulnerable populations: prisoners, the condemned, orphans, the mentally ill, students, the poor, women, the disabled, children, peoples of colour, indigenous peoples and the enslaved.

So there you have it, specimens, as in medical specimens that wasn’t solely attributed to black slaves.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

What are you on about? Google what? Living up to your username I see.

It goes much further than just doctors experiments, I suggest you try again. Take your own advice and do some googling or read a book.

That it?
A personal dig along with deflection?
No evidence, nothing to back up your ramble?
You are doing well here.
Have a look around. At least some people are putting a decent argument.
I’m not sure what you are doing.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

That it?
A personal dig along with deflection?
No evidence, nothing to back up your ramble?
You are doing well here.
Have a look around. At least some people are putting a decent argument.
I’m not sure what you are doing.

You seem to have a talent for missing the point completely. I can’t spell it out much clearer than I have.

As I said, the “specimen” issue goes much further than doctors experiments. It covers every aspect of the slave trade.

 

[RedTiger]

I agree, as soon as I read the op I thought about white specimens, McGregor, Arnold Terminator, Phelps.

Someone said above on page 1 the blacker a player gets the less technically gifted and more physical the comments about them become... I never heard anyone refer to Ronaldinho, Rivaldo or Ronaldo as "physical specimens" so I'm not sure where that came from, or how informed it is.

The level of ignorance around the racism debates on here is astounding. People are being called out because they used specimen as if they were trying to sell the guy at a slave market. Its a fecking word, get fecking less PC ffs.

I think the reason that the players you mentioned were never refered to as physical specimens is due to another prevalent stereotype in that Brazilian/South American players are default considered flair and technical.

Personally I don't think the problem of racial stereotypes within football is as prevalent now as it was when I was growing up. It used to be so widespread before, at world cups we'd always hear about how physically strong and aggressive the sub Saharan African teams were. Thankfully it's not as bad as it was and nowadays the superlatives tend to be more deserved and appropriate but even then I think the quarterback theory is still banded about, black players don't receive the same tactical and intelligence palitudes that other players receive for the front 4 positions ( there are exceptions like Henry, Saha etc, but by and large the intelligence stereotype still holds true for non South American black players).



Sorry if this was rambling but I'm trying to multitask while looking after the kids.

 

[Green_Red]

I think the reason that the players you mentioned were never refered to as physical specimens is due to another prevalent stereotype in that Brazilian/South American players are default considered flair and technical.

Personally I don't think the problem of racial stereotypes within football is as prevalent now as it was when I was growing up. It used to be so widespread before, at world cups we'd always hear about how physically strong and aggressive the sub Saharan African teams were. Thankfully it's not as bad as it was and nowadays the superlatives tend to be more deserved and appropriate but even then I think the quarterback theory is still banded about, black players don't receive the same tactical and intelligence palitudes that other players receive for the front 4 positions ( there are exceptions like Henry, Saha etc, but by and large the intelligence stereotype still holds true for non South American black players).



Sorry if this was rambling but I'm trying to multitask while looking after the kids.

Stereotype is a strong description. Brazilian football and South American football over the last 50 years has been more technical, that's not a stereotype, its a fact.

Sub-Saharan football teams have used strength as a key part of their strategical approach. Not a stereotype, a fact.

I think people are starting to go down the road of looking for things were there aren't any to look for. Particularly the ones you pointed out. Is saying Italian football is more defensively aware a stereotype? No, its a fact.

The whole thing is getting out of control.

 

[The Firestarter]

Do black people realise that ALL civilisations used slaves? The Romans captured loads of people throughout Europe and used them as slaves. The Irish king Niall of the Nine Hostages was responsible for slave raids on Britain, one of those slaves later became St. Patrick. Sub-Saharan Chiefs used their own as slaves and even sold some of their own people into slavery. Ghengis Khan had slaves, no doubt some of the great Chinese dynasties too. Its an unfortunate reality of the world we live in but that's it. You can either choose to accept it rationally and approach it subjectively or you can just waffle on like an ignorant with a chip on your shoulder. The words we use are just words. When Shakespeare wrote Othello the word honest meant sly or deceitful. The word specimen doesn't mean the same in different contexts.

Jesus...are you serious ?

 

[DOTA]

Do black people realise that ALL civilisations used slaves? The Romans captured loads of people throughout Europe and used them as slaves. The Irish king Niall of the Nine Hostages was responsible for slave raids on Britain, one of those slaves later became St. Patrick. Sub-Saharan Chiefs used their own as slaves and even sold some of their own people into slavery. Ghengis Khan had slaves, no doubt some of the great Chinese dynasties too. Its an unfortunate reality of the world we live in but that's it. You can either choose to accept it rationally and approach it subjectively or you can just waffle on like an ignorant with a chip on your shoulder. The words we use are just words. When Shakespeare wrote Othello the word honest meant sly or deceitful. The word specimen doesn't mean the same in different contexts.

Blimey.

 

[Raoul]

Do black people realise that ALL civilisations used slaves? The Romans captured loads of people throughout Europe and used them as slaves. The Irish king Niall of the Nine Hostages was responsible for slave raids on Britain, one of those slaves later became St. Patrick. Sub-Saharan Chiefs used their own as slaves and even sold some of their own people into slavery. Ghengis Khan had slaves, no doubt some of the great Chinese dynasties too. Its an unfortunate reality of the world we live in but that's it. You can either choose to accept it rationally and approach it subjectively or you can just waffle on like an ignorant with a chip on your shoulder. The words we use are just words. When Shakespeare wrote Othello the word honest meant sly or deceitful. The word specimen doesn't mean the same in different contexts.

Some of this may be accurate but why are you addressing this towards black people ?

 

[RedTiger]

Stereotype is a strong description. Brazilian football and South American football over the last 50 years has been more technical, that's not a stereotype, its a fact.

Sub-Saharan football teams have used strength as a key part of their strategical approach. Not a stereotype, a fact.

I think people are starting to go down the road of looking for things were there aren't any to look for. Particularly the ones you pointed out. Is saying Italian football is more defensively aware a stereotype? No, its a fact.

The whole thing is getting out of control.

I agree it's getting out of control now but you can't deny that those ideas and prejudices weren't evident before. I'm non white and growing up 30 years ago I heard that Asian people were just too fecking lazy to play football, this wasn't just off random Sunday league coaches but off established pro managers. Those ideas haven't disappeared, they're not as prevalent as before but they're still around.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I agree it's getting out of control now but you can't deny that those ideas and prejudices weren't evident before. I'm non white and growing up 30 years ago I heard that Asian people were just too fecking lazy to play football, this wasn't just off random Sunday league coaches but off established pro managers. Those ideas haven't disappeared, they're not as prevalent as before but they're still around.

Starting to see more British Asians coming through. Suliman was the first British Pakistani to represent England at any level. Won the u19 Euros last year.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Consensus? I certainly wasn't around when it was announced. 'Specimen' is an ambiguous term that is often used for footballers with distinctive characteristics; Andy Carroll for his size, Peter Crouch for his height, Cristiano Ronaldo and Paul Pogba for their athleticism. It's not 'beast' or 'monster', words that have clear and unambiguous negative undertones.

Let's face it: no one would bat an eyelid if a commentator describes a physical battle between Jaap Stam and Duncan Ferguson as 'two specimens going at it'. The problem with some people is that they see everything with a racial context. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not one who thinks we should 'never see colour' and, for example, it should be All Lives Matter instead of Black Lives Matter because institutionalised racism is very, very real

That's exactly the point. So many keep denying this because they have not and still are not listening to the voice of minorities, lbgt and other discriminated groups. Their calls of outrage have been dismissed and deemed as crying wolf. There is victim blaming (oh she shouldn't have dressed so provacatively , he shouldn't have spoken back so aggressively to the officer, and so on).

One of our own, Patrice Evra was blamed as a victim by those excusing Suarez...trying to say that negro is a term of endearment or common place in S America and therefore not racist. It's the same nonsense here. You may think lots of white players get described the same way in football. But the fact is the terminology is used much more often with black and colored athletes. Diego Costa is 'rabid' but Lee Cattermole is only ever over determined in his challenges, a bit too fiesty. Peter Crouch is lanky and surprising good with his feet for a big man. But Pogba is a specimen.

Even if you decide to ignore the world outside and focus on the forum, you have so many posters voicing their desire to see these habits and perceptions and stereotypes change. And are you acquiescing? No. You're telling them, us, that our being offended is wrong. That we should accept this behavior.

Why?

Is it so hard to stop saying these things? What kind of consensus do you need? This forum is an online community you're a part of. And several of us have on many occasions appealed to you to move this message forward.

Are you truly listening mate? These voices fall on deaf ears here, where there is always reasonable discourse. Perhaps the lack of consensus you haven't heard about is because the world out there is not even half as reasonable as the folks who post here. Maybe it's because that denial and ignorance is that much stronger and louder out there.

 

[Schneckerl]

Yup. The darker the players complexion is, the less "technically gifted" they become and the more "physically dominant". It's a disgrace.

Shits just deep routed, the cracks show in cases like this.

Weird. Dembele seems to escape this stereotype.

 

[Tarrou]

Do black people realise that ALL civilisations used slaves? The Romans captured loads of people throughout Europe and used them as slaves. The Irish king Niall of the Nine Hostages was responsible for slave raids on Britain, one of those slaves later became St. Patrick. Sub-Saharan Chiefs used their own as slaves and even sold some of their own people into slavery. Ghengis Khan had slaves, no doubt some of the great Chinese dynasties too. Its an unfortunate reality of the world we live in but that's it. You can either choose to accept it rationally and approach it subjectively or you can just waffle on like an ignorant with a chip on your shoulder. The words we use are just words. When Shakespeare wrote Othello the word honest meant sly or deceitful. The word specimen doesn't mean the same in different contexts.

I think this might be the worst sentence I've ever read on here.

 

[Fortitude]

Let's face it: no one would bat an eyelid if a commentator describes a physical battle between Jaap Stam and Duncan Ferguson as 'two specimens going at it'. The problem with some people is that they see everything with a racial context. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not one who thinks we should 'never see colour' and, for example, it should be All Lives Matter instead of Black Lives Matter because institutionalised racism is very, very real. That said, I feel it's a dangerous precedent if one starts to take issues with something as ambiguous as this for it dilutes the severity of genuine instances of racism when they happen.

The issue here is that we don't hear such a thing when it's two white players, and if we did, then this issue wouldn't even be threadworthy because it would then be easily shot down. You could then say Drury could have worded his commentary better than he did, but that it was a stretch to dig deeper than that.

Did he word himself in such a way because it was two black players, or because it was two athletic players? I don't believe he meant anything by what he said, but it's very easy to link it to much deeper undertones even if it was his subconscious taking the lead.

I think intent is what those dismissing this entirely are angling for, not that Drury's comment was errant or could cause offence, but that he didn't intend it to. Does that excuse it/him? For some yes, for others, no.

Like I said before, this is hardly the most pressing of issues when it comes to racism, but it is a matter in need of address, eventually.

Commentator 1: "Have to say, you'd pay to watch Kouyate against Pogba, wouldn't you? ... Those are two of the liveliest, most athletic specimens in our league. Great athletes the pair of them."

Don’t be lazy.

Not “go at it”
And not “specimens go at it “

You're trolling, or being purposely obtuse.

 

[shamans]

Examples of commentators saying they'd pay to watch two 'whatever' specimens go at it, please.

Saying a point(s) is weak, whilst circumventing it entirely, means you shouldn't address it/them?

Ronaldo is almost always called a human specimen etc.

 

[automaticflare]

This thread is crap IMo

 

[DJ Jeff]

Yup. The darker the players complexion is, the less "technically gifted" they become and the more "physically dominant". It's a disgrace.

Shits just deep routed, the cracks show in cases like this.

Dunno how you can say this is the case when Brazilians exist.

 

[automaticflare]

Dunno how you can say this is the case when Brazilians exist.

Jay jay okocha says hello
As does ronaldinho

This is a lazy ignorant argument IMO which is why I said this thread is pure crap

 

[Kopral Jono]

That's exactly the point. So many keep denying this because they have not and still are not listening to the voice of minorities, lbgt and other discriminated groups. Their calls of outrage have been dismissed and deemed as crying wolf. There is victim blaming (oh she shouldn't have dressed so provacatively , he shouldn't have spoken back so aggressively to the officer, and so on).

One of our own, Patrice Evra was blamed as a victim by those excusing Suarez...trying to say that negro is a term of endearment or common place in S America and therefore not racist. It's the same nonsense here. You may think lots of white players get described the same way in football. But the fact is the terminology is used much more often with black and colored athletes. Diego Costa is 'rabid' but Lee Cattermole is only ever over determined in his challenges, a bit too fiesty. Peter Crouch is lanky and surprising good with his feet for a big man. But Pogba is a specimen.

Even if you decide to ignore the world outside and focus on the forum, you have so many posters voicing their desire to see these habits and perceptions and stereotypes change. And are you acquiescing? No. You're telling them, us, that our being offended is wrong. That we should accept this behavior.

Why?

Is it so hard to stop saying these things? What kind of consensus do you need? This forum is an online community you're a part of. And several of us have on many occasions appealed to you to move this message forward.

Are you truly listening mate? These voices fall on deaf ears here, where there is always reasonable discourse. Perhaps the lack of consensus you haven't heard about is because the world out there is not even half as reasonable as the folks who post here. Maybe it's because that denial and ignorance is that much stronger and louder out there.

Talk about going off on a tangent.

Why should I acquiesce to your opinion, one that is rather ill-judged and made on the idea that it's somehow wrong to make a quick anecdote about Pogba's athleticism when he, amongst many other great attributes, is very much athletic? Why are you assuming that I can't accept the fact that you're offended? Where have I said that you should accept these sort of things? Also, by implying that it's only right for me to acquiesce to the opinion of a few on here, do you realise that what you're doing is just a disguised form of intolerance where you attempt to control people's opinions and language with rigid rules and codes? I don't know if you missed the memo but this is how it works: you have the right to your opinion, the right to offend someone if it's substantiated and doesn't cause direct personal harm and also the right to be offended, and it's certainly not up to anyone if the fact that you take offence to something is right or wrong. This applies both ways.

And your logic on consensus is flawed. Consensus is typically defined as a general agreement or unanimity, and no way is this forum unanimous on this matter. If a consensus had been reached, this thread wouldn't be seven pages long in the first place.

Believe me, these voices are not falling on deaf ears at least on here and as a matter of fact, if Drury had said 'athletic beasts' I'd be up in arms simply because 'beast' as a word to describe black footballers has evident and unambiguous negative connotations. These voices, ironically and unfortunately, will only fall on deaf ears if people are going to be constantly outraged at things such as, say, an (at best) ambiguous word used by a football commentator to describe a footballer of a certain colour in a particular context of a game. Like I said repeatedly, attitudes like this can water down real instances of racism when they do happen.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Talk about going off on a tangent.

Why should I acquiesce to your opinion, one that is rather ill-judged and made on the idea that it's somehow wrong to make a quick anecdote about Pogba's athleticism when he, amongst many other great attributes, is very much athletic? Why are you assuming that I can't accept the fact that you're offended? Where have I said that you should accept these sort of things? Also, by implying that it's only right for me to acquiesce to the opinion of a few on here, do you realise that what you're doing is just a disguised form of intolerance where you attempt to control people's opinions and language with rigid rules and codes? I don't know if you missed the memo but this is how it works: you have the right to your opinion, the right to offend someone if it's substantiated and doesn't cause direct personal harm and also the right to be offended, and it's certainly not up to anyone if the fact that you take offence to something is right or wrong. This applies both ways.

And your logic on consensus is flawed. Consensus is typically defined as a general agreement or unanimity, and no way is this forum unanimous on this matter. If a consensus had been reached, this thread wouldn't be seven pages long in the first place.

Believe me, these voices are not falling on deaf ears at least on here and as a matter of fact, if Drury had said 'athletic beasts' I'd be up in arms simply because 'beast' as a word to describe black footballers has evident and unambiguous negative connotations. These voices, ironically and unfortunately, will only fall on deaf ears if people are going to be constantly outraged at things such as, say, an (at best) ambiguous word used by a football commentator to describe a footballer of a certain colour in a particular context of a game. Like I said repeatedly, attitudes like this can water down real instances of racism when they do happen.

I thought I might be a bit more fair in discussing this with you. But you haven’t even tried to listen. So here’s the issue I have with the kind of consensus that you’re waiting for before acknowledging these terms have racist connotation and historical weight.

There was no consensus when Slavery was abolished. There was no consensus when Jim Crow was repealed. There is no consensus that it’s not okay to say the n word.

You don’t have to agree with me. You’re entitled to your opinion and your stance. But i have a right to ask you to consider being more cognizant of the fact that these words have differ significance to those that aren’t you. If you acknowledge that and know that , that’s more than many in society are willing to do.

 

[BeamsAndTrusses]

The logic that Ronaldinho, Henry, Martial were praised for their technical ability so there is no racism in the commentary that is posted in the OP is a bit false.

One right (praise) doesn't make the other wrong (racism) okay. What makes something racist is not a binary thing imo. If someone says something offends them, then we should not make comments about it. In this case obviously Kouyate and Pogba haven't said anything, but if they did, would Peter Drury not apologize and be careful in his future remarks? This is how an ideal human global society that consists of different cultures can function together. We don't get to decide what's racist and what's not racist. Very few blanket rules should work.

 

[Kopral Jono]

I thought I might be a bit more fair in discussing this with you. But you haven’t even tried to listen. So here’s the issue I have with the kind of consensus that you’re waiting for before acknowledging these terms have racist connotation and historical weight.

There was no consensus when Slavery was abolished. There was no consensus when Jim Crow was repealed. There is no consensus that it’s not okay to say the n word.

You don’t have to agree with me. You’re entitled to your opinion and your stance. But i have a right to ask you to consider being more cognizant of the fact that these words have differ significance to those that aren’t you. If you acknowledge that and know that , that’s more than many in society are willing to do.

I'd try harder to listen if you start posing a more coherent argument or even better, answer my questions, rather than going off on a tangent again by deflecting the context of said consensus from one that relates to this forum's members' opinions to slavery abolition.

Different words have different significance to each individual and to generalise that ambiguous terms such as 'athletic specimen' would offend a whole group of people is, as a matter of fact, also form of generalisation. The key word here is ambiguous. 'Beast' or 'monster' when describing black footballers is a no-no but I don't see any issues, for instance, with commentators describing footballers of East Asian stock as 'industrious', for one is charged with direct racial connotations and the other can describe many things. If we're going to police every word or term that may or may not have different significance to different people, there will just be no end to it and that can be dangerous in the long run for obvious reasons.

But yeah, like you said I don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me and it seems that we'll just have to leave it at that. It's quite clear we don't view things the same way and that's perfectly okay. Internet forums are made for this very reason after all!

 

[SilentWitness]

so, because you can’t produce any evidence to back up your stereotype theory you want me to search for it on google for you?
Lazy.
And I would like you to go back and read and please highlight where I have said it’s ok because white athletes are called this as well.
But you won’t because you’re lazy.
And just for kicks I did post this on my Facebook page.
I do, along with probably you and plenty others, have several non white friends. Not a single one found the statement racist anyway shape or form.

Again, you're missing the point. The wider issue isn't about this isolated statement but we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Fortitude]

Ronaldo is almost always called a human specimen etc.

That, in no way, answers what I asked you. But let's drop this because it's a merry dance where I ask and you swerve.

 

[shamans]

Again, you're missing the point. The wider issue isn't about this isolated statement but we will have to agree to disagree.

The wider issue exists but just not in this case.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The wider issue exists but just not in this case.

You may not think so. But many here do. And while you don't seem to agree or respect their opinion there are bigger voices, globally speaking , who do as well: