Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Vieri was described a beast/animal/savage
Ronaldinho a magician
Weah a perfect footballer
Bale an Athlete

The same phrases were used to describe;
Kanu & Berbatov
C.Ronaldo & Pogba
Deschamp & Makelele
Duncan Ferguson & Drogba
Ferdinand & Nesta

There are so many examples that speak for the opposite being true.

Yes some commentators may rely on tired old tropes. That's because they are largely terrible at what they do. Not because they're racist.

 

[shamans]

By not mentioning it, you help complacency build and reduce awareness so that people think all is rosy. The fear or embarasment of publicly being shames as a victim is also a big deal. Its not just with racism. Take the sexual harassment stuff as well. There are parallels in women (and men) afraid to speak up and for so long when they did it was dismissed. Racism like some of these posters below are pointing out isn't just an extreme. The extent of the more subtle bits is not well known and appreciated enough. You're not a stronger man or woman for keeping quiet. You're letting others get away with it little by little. So many replies in in these threads show the level of dismissing , taking away the power of your voice in doing so. Changen the future of our society mate. Speak up.

You are missing the point that the reason I don't mention it is because of BS like this others wont even believe me. You are dismissing all of us who face actual issues by bringing up these non issues. Racism exists and it doesn't have to be extreme. There are subtle forms as well such as how white beauty is considered best etc but in this case it didn't happen.

Also you are just arguing that this issue exists and not whether or not it actually happened in this case. Anyway, you don't need to reply to this as you wont change my mind and I have given up on this. People raising the race wars flag for insignificant stuff like this and then wonder why we can't get along.

 

[haram]

I have to say, hearing it live I did cringe a bit.

 

[Sterling Archer]

You are missing the point that the reason I don't mention it is because of BS like this others wont even believe me. You are dismissing all of us who face actual issues by bringing up these non issues. Racism exists and it doesn't have to be extreme. There are subtle forms as well such as how white beauty is considered best etc but in this case it didn't happen

I think the atmosphere has shifted enough to where you would be taken more seriously now. Take the incident from Yale University earlier this week - a black student fell asleep in a study lounge . Another student called the police, who came and confronted her about needing to make sure she was in fact a student with proof, despite the girl saying she was. It was all quite embarrassing. It would also typically be swept under the rug or even not mentioned by the victim herself. But she spoke up. And she has received so much support.

You have many people who acknowledge the subtle and want to change all of it for the better.

So speak up. And when you see so many in a thread like this , don't add to those dismissing it. Perhaps you as an individual don't find the language used by the pundits to be offensive. Know that there are many of color and not that do take offense. Stand up for them.

 

[MadDogg]

There is definitely an element of this still around (there are times where I do feel Lukaku is on the wrong end of it), but this was a poor example. The two players were spending the 90 minutes basically competing directly against each other, and the similarity there is their athleticism and power. One is significantly more skillful on the ball (which the second commentator touches on), but when comparing two players you normally do compare the things that they are in similar in first.

Ronaldo and Bale are two white guys at the absolute top of the game that are constantly talked about for their physicality rather than their skill, so it's hardly just black players. Generally players who are blessed with both power and speed are pushed into the 'athletes' category rather than the 'footballer' category, and it just happens that black players do tend to have a significantly higher percentage of people who fit that description than white players.

 

[duffer]

There is definitely an element of this still around (there are times where I do feel Lukaku is on the wrong end of it), but this was a poor example. The two players were spending the 90 minutes basically competing directly against each other, and the similarity there is their athleticism and power. One is significantly more skillful on the ball (which the second commentator touches on), but when comparing two players you normally do compare the things that they are in similar in first.

Lukaku is a good example. Earlier this season there was a debate as to whether or not United fans signing about the size his penis was acceptable. The player himself said he'd prefer not to be reduced to a stereotype and the fans eventually stopped.

It'll take that for "he's a specimen" to go away but I genuinely don't think any players care about that particular description.

 

[Prometheus]

These things are true but in this case calling Pogba athletic, I mean give me a break. The guy is built like a tank and is what 6'4.

I'm not so sure. It being true doesn't mean it isn't a case of implicit stereotyping. If a black player has qualities X, Y, Z and Y fits the stereotype, an implicitly stereotyping person will tend to accentuate Y. Even people who consciously reject the use of such stereotypes have been shown to have this problem, so it's not so simple.

 

[Red_toad]

I think we're in a strange time. White people under 40 have generally been taught from childhood to understand that all people are equal and don't see any differences between black people and white people or any other race for that matter. We treat them all the same. But now were being bombarded with the idea that other races are actually different and should be treated differently. Calling a white person a physical specimen is ok. But calling a black person isn't. It's now considered racist to treat all people the same

That's a big generalisation. When did 40 become the off cut for being a enlightened nice person?

A good person is a good person what ever their creed or colour. The world is made up of good and bad people, there is no race divide between the two. That is how I've always found people to be and I'm well into my 40's.

 

[ivaldo]

I'm not so sure. It being true doesn't mean it isn't a case of implicit stereotyping. If a black player has qualities X, Y, Z and Y fits the stereotype, an implicitly stereotyping person will tend to accentuate Y. Even people who consciously reject the use of such stereotypes have been shown to have this problem, so it's not so simple.

And it having a vague racist connotation doesn't make it racist either. In this particular example, and let me us stress the discussion is about this specific example, as the OP seems unable to separate the it from a wider point, the comment by the commentator is perfectly in line with the context of the game. Pogba and Kouyate were regularly coming together, and ended up together on the floor from their altercations on at least three occasions. The OP seems perfectly willing to forgo this context in order to call the commenator "shameful" and imply he's a closet racist.

 

[Florida Man]

How does this apply to intelligent and technically gifted footballers like Jozy Altidore?

 

[Fortitude]

Are people aware that there's a lot of research done on this type of racism, and it's been demonstrated to be widespread time and again? And that people tend to associate not just black skin colour, but traditional black names too with athleticism/strength? I mean if you Google implicit stereotyping, you would immediately find dozens of research papers discussing this problem. I find it interesting that there are people dismissing this as if there's nothing there, and venturing on to complain about positive discrimination and white players too being victimised by the same association. In fact, this whole thread is very uncomfortable to read.

Actually, it's an excellent case study, like countless others on the site, when race and racism is brought up.

Some of these posts show how ingrained and layered the issue is, like an onion, a really rotten onion.

You are missing the point that the reason I don't mention it is because of BS like this others wont even believe me. You are dismissing all of us who face actual issues by bringing up these non issues. Racism exists and it doesn't have to be extreme. There are subtle forms as well such as how white beauty is considered best etc but in this case it didn't happen.

Also you are just arguing that this issue exists and not whether or not it actually happened in this case. Anyway, you don't need to reply to this as you wont change my mind and I have given up on this. People raising the race wars flag for insignificant stuff like this and then wonder why we can't get along.

You're dismissive, yet you did hear the bit where he said he'd pay to see these two 'go at it'? As @Sterling Archer stated in post #159.

You are aware this is what slavers used to do in the pits and make a fortune from and why the connotation, although distant, still carries weight from a bygone era?

Perhaps you're showing your own ignorance by dismissing something probably said with no ill-intent, but still carrying it, that was picked up on by enough people for it to be a point raised, perhaps not, if however you've posted what you have without understanding of the full connotation, you shouldn't be dismissing it or acting as a spokesman for an entire race. On the other hand, if you have understood the history behind such a thing and still posted what you have, I'm rather bemused by your stance.

It wasn't just the use of specimen that would raise eyebrows; it was what came immediately after it in relation to the term, that would.

Drury mightn't have said it with any ill-meaning or intent, and he probably doesn't even register such a thing as offensive, but like it or not, 'specimens' going up against each other for a paying audience has 100's of years of backstory behind it that has nothing to do with professional sport. Ignorance to that fact doesn't wash it away, so those using only the last 50 years or the context of professional sport and dismissing anything but that are displaying a narrow viewpoint at best and a complete lack of awareness of historical context at worst.

 

[Florida Man]

And it having a vague racist connotation doesn't make it racist either. In this particular example, and let me us stress the discussion is about this specific example, as the OP seems unable to separate the it from a wider point, the comment by the commentator is perfectly in line with the context of the game. Pogba and Kouyate were regularly coming together, and ended up together on the floor from their altercations on at least three occasions. The OP seems perfectly willing to forgo this context in order to call the commenator "shameful" and imply he's a closet racist.

It’s the use of the word, specimen, that makes this controversial. Describing Pogba as athletic is certainly accurate otherwise.

 

[Fortitude]

And it having a vague racist connotation doesn't make it racist either. In this particular example, and let me us stress the discussion is about this specific example, as the OP seems unable to separate the it from a wider point, the comment by the commentator is perfectly in line with the context of the game. Pogba and Kouyate were regularly coming together, and ended up together on the floor from their altercations on at least three occasions. The OP seems perfectly willing to forgo this context in order to call the commenator "shameful" and imply he's a closet racist.

It's not vague.

 

[ivaldo]

It's not vague.

Yeah, in the context it absolutely is.

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah, in the context it absolutely is.

No, it isn't. When put together in the combination of words it was, anyone who knows their history will connect the dots immediately. Those who do not, have no reason to, but their ignorance to the issues of yore do not excuse it or make it any less of an issue.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Feck me, that's spot on. Hadn't seen that clip before .

It's a parody ffs

 

[ivaldo]

No, it isn't. When put together in the combination of words it was, anyone who knows their history will connect the dots immediately. Those who do not, have no reason to, but their ignorance to the issues of yore do not excuse it or make it any less of an issue.

It really doesn't. The combination of words does not make it racist, you've got to jump through a hell of a lot of hoops to come to that conclusion. I mean as an excise, Google the words specimen and racist and see how many relevant results to get returned.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

I'm sure the commentator isn't intentionally racist - but it shows that oppression and discrimination is so deeply rooted in society that many don't even realise what they are doing.

It's about education - in schools they need to be teaching kids about institutional racism, oppression and power dynamics.

Employers, like these big media companies need to be held accountable if their employees are expressing these views and at the very least some mandatory training such be implemented for offenders like this.

These particular commentators probably are oblivious but should be made aware and they need to apologise to the players.

 

[SteveW]

That's a big generalisation. When did 40 become the off cut for being a enlightened nice person?

A good person is a good person what ever their creed or colour. The world is made up of good and bad people, there is no race divide between the two. That is how I've always found people to be and I'm well into my 40's.

It could be any age. I just picked one. I'm not saying old people are racist or anything like that. I just can't comment on what children were taught back in the 50s, 60s etc because I wasn't there. My point was that people nowadays generally understand that skin colour should not influence how you treat people. Most people treat all races the same. So for some it's a little strange that we are now being asked not to do so now. It seems bizarre that commenting on the athleticism of athletes could be construed as racism. I don't see why we can say it about white athletes but not black athletes.

 

[Dante]

Talking about athletecism is not racist.

Refusing to acknowledge intelligence is racist.

In the case of Pogba vs Kouyate, I don't think it's fair to criticise the commentator. You can only make the judgement regarding racism over time and numerous examples, not based on a single line.

 

[SteveW]

I'm sure the commentator isn't intentionally racist - but it shows that oppression and discrimination is so deeply rooted in society that many don't even realise what they are doing.

It's about education - in schools they need to be teaching kids about institutional racism, oppression and power dynamics.

Employers, like these big media companies need to be held accountable if their employees are expressing these views and at the very least some mandatory training such be implemented for offenders like this.

These particular commentators probably are oblivious but should be made aware and they need to apologise to the players.

I hope you're joking.

 

[POF]

Actually, it's an excellent case study, like countless others on the site, when race and racism is brought up.

Some of these posts show how ingrained and layered the issue is, like an onion, a really rotten onion.

You're dismissive, yet you did hear the bit where he said he'd pay to see these two 'go at it'? As @Sterling Archer stated in post #159.

You are aware this is what slavers used to do in the pits and make a fortune from and why the connotation, although distant, still carries weight from a bygone era?

Perhaps you're showing your own ignorance by dismissing something probably said with no ill-intent, but still carrying it, that was picked up on by enough people for it to be a point raised, perhaps not, if however you've posted what you have without understanding of the full connotation, you shouldn't be dismissing it or acting as a spokesman for an entire race. On the other hand, if you have understood the history behind such a thing and still posted what you have, I'm rather bemused by your stance.

It wasn't just the use of specimen that would raise eyebrows; it was what came immediately after it in relation to the term, that would.

Drury mightn't have said it with any ill-meaning or intent, and he probably doesn't even register such a thing as offensive, but like it or not, 'specimens' going up against each other for a paying audience has 100's of years of backstory behind it that has nothing to do with professional sport. Ignorance to that fact doesn't wash it away, so those using only the last 50 years or the context of professional sport and dismissing anything but that are displaying a narrow viewpoint at best and a complete lack of awareness of historical context at worst.

It's also what people might say about Brock Lesnar vs Goldberg at Wrestlemania or Keane vs Vieira in the United/Arsenal rivalry.

There may be a connotation from the distant past but what is the optimum outcome? To maintain or remove that connotation?

You say that the comment's "racist undertones" were likely to be unintentional. In that case, the only people who continue to maintain that connotation you speak of are those who choose to get so offended by it.

 

[Fortitude]

It really doesn't. The combination of words does not make it racist, you've got to jump through a hell of a lot of hoops to come to that conclusion. I mean as an excise, Google the words specimen and racist and see how many relevant results to get returned.

You deliberately ignoring the bit where I said in combination with saying he'd pay to watch these 'specimens' go at it doesn't make it go away or alter the fact. I didn't pay any mind to what he was saying until he added the rest and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Specimen in isolation is open to interpretation, in addition to the rest, from a historical perspective, it isn't.

 

[ivaldo]

You deliberately ignoring the bit where I said in combination with saying he'd pay to watch these 'specimens' go at it doesn't make it go away or alter the fact. I didn't pay any mind to what he was saying until he added the rest and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Specimen in isolation is open to interpretation, in addition to the rest, from a historical perspective, it isn't.

We aren't going to agree on this. After seeing you also had a problem with "going at it", well. Let's just leave it here.

 

[Lash]

To be honest I think it’s more the fact that these old timers are obsessed with people being athletic.

I made a comment the other day, when the Arsenal game was on, about who would win in a fight between Lukaku and Kolasinac. It seems natural when you see two big feckers or athletic feckers to be in awe of it.

I think the idea of black players only being described as specimens is racist, but I think this is a bit of a jump to get to that here, based of this one piece of commentary.

 

[Lash]

Talking about athletecism is not racist.

Refusing to acknowledge intelligence is racist.

In the case of Pogba vs Kouyate, I don't think it's fair to criticise the commentator. You can only make the judgement regarding racism over time and numerous examples, not based on a single line.

Sorry, missed this post before I posted mine. On the button here, chap.

 

[Fortitude]

It's also what people might say about Brock Lesnar vs Goldberg at Wrestlemania or Keane vs Vieira in the United/Arsenal rivalry.

There may be a connotation from the distant past but what is the optimum outcome? To maintain or remove that connotation?

You say that the comment's "racist undertones" were likely to be unintentional. In that case, the only people who continue to maintain that connotation you speak of are those who choose to get so offended by it.

It doesn't matter what the addendum's are, though; historically, and (very probably) initially it was used in that way, and it's always going to stick out like a sore thumb when used in reference to two black players - I was going to say by a white man, but that's moot as in England, we don't have any other race as the main commentator in a position to make such a statement - especially so when at least one of them is as skilled as Pogba.

Racially insensitive, unintentionally offensive, etc. etc. is all much of a muchness. It more highlights how deep-rooted such 'stuff' is, and Drury is definitely of an age where the old context rings truer than the new.

Your last paragraph can apply to an entire race, taken to it's conclusion, who, forevermore have the right to be offended by it if they so choose, given it's them who have suffered in the past. In a modern context, I just feel there's a need to educate and for these things to not be a slip of the tongue, really.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

Get a grip. You can make a point without hyperbolic nonsense like this.

Get a grip? Is that covert bullying?
Or does that not apply in this case?
Don’t you need to be sympathetic to my needs and opinions?

There are a plethora of studies and articles which have been written concerning this matter and they're all readily available should you wish to google them. Easy to find, and simply put, there is a physical stereotype attributed to black athletes.

I don't have anything other to say tbh as you are unable to grasp the simple point that is at the root of this and keep bringing it back to "it can't be racist because white athletes get called it"

so, because you can’t produce any evidence to back up your stereotype theory you want me to search for it on google for you?
Lazy.
And I would like you to go back and read and please highlight where I have said it’s ok because white athletes are called this as well.
But you won’t because you’re lazy.
And just for kicks I did post this on my Facebook page.
I do, along with probably you and plenty others, have several non white friends. Not a single one found the statement racist anyway shape or form.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

Funny that you admit your ignorance to the history of black racism in your first paragraph. I.e. The slave trade viewing slaves as specimens, like working animals to be traded.

Then you go on to speak for all people who have fought racism across the World in your final paragraph, despite your clear lack of understanding.

Funny how you googled “Blackman and specimen”
But didn’t read the whole article!
Poor and lazy argument my friend.
Black men and slaves where sold as “specimens” to up and coming young doctors during the slave trade. To experiment on.
So were children, women, thieves, vagabonds, indigenous people, disabled, poor,prisoners etc etc
It wasn’t solely slaves, but slaves were in abundance and easy attainable at the time.
Think before you try a history lesson you do a bit of research.

 

[Ducklegs]

That's a big generalisation. When did 40 become the off cut for being a enlightened nice person?

A good person is a good person what ever their creed or colour. The world is made up of good and bad people, there is no race divide between the two. That is how I've always found people to be and I'm well into my 40's.

It does seem odd, and he is quite happy to be offensive in his ageism, branding everyone over 40 a racist.

 

[Bobski]

I can recall being fascinated by how Pogba and Dembele would match up based on the physical challenge they present to each other. Both highly skilled but that skill is underpinned by tremendous core strength. Pogba loves showing off how strong he is, it is one of the reasons he is so comfortable holding the ball for long periods, uses his body to shield then roll players in a way a smaller player could not match. Dembele might be the best in the league at that, supremely strong on the ball, backed up by a lovely touch and a deceptive change of pace, very difficult to get the ball off him because he controls his space so effortlessly. Must have made it extra satisfying for Pogba when he read Dembele, won the ball and set up Sanchez for the SF goal.

Bit of a tangent from the main discussion but I do think there is an element of stereotyping in a sports environment that people would think twice about in day to day life.

 

[SteveW]

It does seem odd, and he is quite happy to be offensive in his ageism, branding everyone over 40 a racist.

It could be any age. I just picked one. I'm not saying old people are racist or anything like that. I just can't comment on what children were taught back in the 50s, 60s etc because I wasn't there. My point was that people nowadays generally understand that skin colour should not influence how you treat people. Most people treat all races the same. So for some it's a little strange that we are now being asked not to do so now. It seems bizarre that commenting on the athleticism of athletes could be construed as racism. I don't see why we can say it about white athletes but not black athletes.

I already explained that. It is nothing to do with ageism. I simply am unable to comment on what older people were taught at childhood because I wasn't around for it. All I know for sure is what people of my age and younger were taught. So that's what I commented on. Also where the hell did I brand anyone a racist?

 

[Kopral Jono]

I'm sure the commentator isn't intentionally racist - but it shows that oppression and discrimination is so deeply rooted in society that many don't even realise what they are doing.

It's about education - in schools they need to be teaching kids about institutional racism, oppression and power dynamics.

Employers, like these big media companies need to be held accountable if their employees are expressing these views and at the very least some mandatory training such be implemented for offenders like this.

These particular commentators probably are oblivious but should be made aware and they need to apologise to the players.

Now this is peak SJW nonsense and I sincerely hope you're taking the mickey. Chanting Lukaku has a big ding-dong and Park eats dog in his country is racist, calling Pogba and Kouyate as athletic specimens in the context of a highly-charged midfield battle just isn't, no matter how you try to work your way around it.

I'm saying this simply because, amongst other things, both footballers are particularly athletic and there just aren't many around! I understand that some here are taking an issue with the use of 'specimen', but really, the whole point of the commentator in question is to complement both Pogba and Kouyate for their noteworthy athleticism and that alone is not racist. The fact of the matter is, no one would bat an eyelid if said commentator describes Ronaldo and Zlatan as athletic.

You can't equate this instance to when black footballers are lazily described as 'beasts', a word with obvious negative connotations that is often used to describe black footballers. Really, as well-intentioned as you are, it's this sort of tripe that dilutes the seriousness of racism when it does happen.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

I already explained that. It is nothing to do with ageism. I simply am unable to comment on what older people were taught at childhood because I wasn't around for it. All I know for sure is what people of my age and younger were taught. So that's what I commented on. Also where the hell did I brand anyone a racist?

So here’s a question for you, you write a random age and try to define how people may think about racism over or above that certain age limit.

Which you explained afterwards that you wasn’t advocating ageism you was merely saying you coudnt comment as you wasn’t around before 40ish right?
That’s acceptable, I accept your explanation.

But someone, a commentator, was flat out accused of being racist.
Not accidental or covert as they came later in several posts.
If that was said about a non white person, other than a black person, and the person who said it explained why he said it then we would as a society be happy about the explanation.

But this was said about a black person or 2 in this case. Now the issue changes, it becomes about slavery and some idiot actually went as far as to say the commentator was indicating he would love to see them pitted in a fight.

That’s the issue here, not what was said, it’s about who it was said about.....2 black men.
I will say it again, a majority of people regardless of age, religion, colour, nationality, sex or gender seem to think racism is only black and white.

If somebody makes a statement that has several different connotations judged by different people’s perceptions and one of them so much as implies anything to do with racism, made up or real, then it’s apparently racist!
You cannot use that word or statement again, it’s ridiculous how people take things out of context for there own agenda, like the OP, and water down what is a very sensitive subject.

 

[POF]

It doesn't matter what the addendum's are, though; historically, and (very probably) initially it was used in that way, and it's always going to stick out like a sore thumb when used in reference to two black players - I was going to say by a white man, but that's moot as in England, we don't have any other race as the main commentator in a position to make such a statement - especially so when at least one of them is as skilled as Pogba.

Racially insensitive, unintentionally offensive, etc. etc. is all much of a muchness. It more highlights how deep-rooted such 'stuff' is, and Drury is definitely of an age where the old context rings truer than the new.

Your last paragraph can apply to an entire race, taken to it's conclusion, who, forevermore have the right to be offended by it if they so choose, given it's them who have suffered in the past. In a modern context, I just feel there's a need to educate and for these things to not be a slip of the tongue, really.

Anyone has the right to be offended about anything they so choose but over compensating to such an extreme and looking for underlying racist connotations when they don't really exist is extremely dangerous.

It's likely that in the very near future an entire generation will associate "racism" with the "PC gone mad" brigade who throw the term around so flippantly and try to find racism in the most innocent of comments. That is the real shame for those who have suffered in the past.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Every single match McTominay plays the commentators go on about his size but I guess that's ok because he's white right?

No they don't. It's always about him being mature for his age.

With Pogba, the conversation tends to be regarding power and speed. And it's not even his biggest strength. He is largely a creator with fantastic technique. I wouldn't even say he is all that strong or tough. He loses more duels and gets knocked off the ball than many tinier players.

 

[Alexit]

Don't agree that there's anything in it. You don't see many footballers as athletically well built as Pogba. The guy is an athletic specimen, as are Ronaldo, Phelps etc. Could easily see it being said about them too.

If you're well built and able to physically impose yourself on the game, which Pogba obviously does (as can Lukaku), then I don't why it's an issue to suggest that they're physically dominant. It's obviously a part of both their games.

Facts. But these days everything is racism (and Russia!). Ridiculous.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

No they don't. It's always about him being mature for his age.

With Pogba, the conversation tends to be regarding power and speed. And it's not even his biggest strength. He is largely a creator with fantastic technique. I wouldn't even say he is all that strong or tough. He loses more duels and gets knocked off the ball than many tinier players.

Yes they do!! McTom always gets mentioned for being a tall type of Jose player. You can’t hide facts just to suit agendas.

 

[SteveW]

So here’s a question for you, you write a random age and try to define how people may think about racism over or above that certain age limit.

Which you explained afterwards that you wasn’t advocating ageism you was merely saying you coudnt comment as you wasn’t around before 40ish right?
That’s acceptable, I accept your explanation.

But someone, a commentator, was flat out accused of being racist.
Not accidental or covert as they came later in several posts.
If that was said about a non white person, other than a black person, and the person who said it explained why he said it then we would as a society be happy about the explanation.

But this was said about a black person or 2 in this case. Now the issue changes, it becomes about slavery and some idiot actually went as far as to say the commentator was indicating he would love to see them pitted in a fight.

That’s the issue here, not what was said, it’s about who it was said about.....2 black men.
I will say it again, a majority of people regardless of age, religion, colour, nationality, sex or gender seem to think racism is only black and white.

If somebody makes a statement that has several different connotations judged by different people’s perceptions and one of them so much as implies anything to do with racism, made up or real, then it’s apparently racist!
You cannot use that word or statement again, it’s ridiculous how people take things out of context for there own agenda, like the OP, and water down what is a very sensitive subject.

I agree. I just think we're getting to a point where even harmless language is being described as racist. That's bringing us towards a place where instead of transcending race and treating everybody as equals we will need to become acutely aware of race for fear of saying the wrong thing. It means we need to start seeing black footballers, white footballers, Asians footballers etc instead of just footballers. Taken to it's logical conclusion we would likely end up using different sets of prescribed safe adjectives for players of different races, from different countries, of different religions etc.

And in doing this you end up being unable to accurately describe the individual. Pogba is a terrific athlete however you have to avoid mentioning this. Because by the logic being used here Pogba is no longer an individual, he's a black man, and it's racial stereotyping to comment on a black man's athleticism. That's both wrong and stupid. Many black athletes are very proud of their athleticism and athletic achievements. As such it's nobody's place to say they can be praised or admired for these qualities and achievements. Only somebody with a warped mind could turn such praise into some sort of reference to oppression or slavery. Ade Akifenwa isn't calling himself a slave or an animal when he wears his beast mode t-shirts. Why assume Pogba and Kouyate would/or should be offended?

One or two people on a forum cannot speak for an entire race of people. If these people feel offended by a word or phrase that's a shame for them but that's all. If in time, a consensus was reached that the phrase "physical specimen" was indeed racist people would become aware of it and it's usage would decrease. That's how language evolves. That hasn't happened. I don't think it will because most people have the common sense to recognise the difference between racism and accurate race neutral description.

 

[BigdaftGorby]

I agree. I just think we're getting to a point where even harmless language is being described as racist. That's bringing us towards a place where instead of transcending race and treating everybody as equals we will need to become acutely aware of race for fear of saying the wrong thing. It means we need to start seeing black footballers, white footballers, Asians footballers etc instead of just footballers. Taken to it's logical conclusion we would likely end up using different sets of prescribed safe adjectives for players of different races, from different countries, of different religions etc.

And in doing this you end up being unable to accurately describe the individual. Pogba is a terrific athlete however you have to avoid mentioning this. Because by the logic being used here Pogba is no longer an individual, he's a black man, and it's racial stereotyping to comment on a black man's athleticism. That's both wrong and stupid. Many black athletes are very proud of their athleticism and athletic achievements. As such it's nobody's place to say they can be praised or admired for these qualities and achievements. Only somebody with a warped mind could turn such praise into some sort of reference to oppression or slavery. Ade Akifenwa isn't calling himself a slave or an animal when he wears his beast mode t-shirts. Why assume Pogba and Kouyate would/or should be offended?

One or two people on a forum cannot speak for an entire race of people. If these people feel offended by a word or phrase that's a shame for them but that's all. If in time, a consensus was reached that the phrase "physical specimen" was indeed racist people would become aware of it and it's usage would decrease. That's how language evolves. That hasn't happened. I don't think it will because most people have the common sense to recognise the difference between racism and accurate race neutral description.

Great post mate, common sense at its best.