Absolutely. And I really appreciate that it's being discussed as opposed to just silenced That's a really important step even if we disagree. hope it helps build confidence that people should speak up when concerned.
Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II
- Thread starter Sterling Archer
- Start date
Absolutely. And I really appreciate that it's being discussed as opposed to just silenced That's a really important step even if we disagree. hope it helps build confidence that people should speak up when concerned.
I don't classify Matic as particularly athletic. I'd wager that when I was 18, I was faster, stronger, and more explosive than he is now, and I was not some sort of athletic phenom, I was just pretty fast, pretty strong, and could jump pretty high for a 6'4 white guy.
Pogba on the other hand, I look at how he moves, how he handles tackles, and I see someone athletic. It's not because he's black. It's because he is dynamic.
When someone like Herrera gets called "intelligent" it's the polite way to say, there is nothing particularly special about his game. He's gritty, and clever, because he isn't fast, strong, explosive, or how you would measure any sort of classic athleticism. Pogba on the other hand, IS an imposing athlete by footballing standards, and while he may not be gritty, and that might be the big hole in his game, he has everything else, with the cherry on top being a spectacular athlete.
As someone who came from American Football, I see absolutely nothing wrong with commenting on the athleticism of a talented, technical player. Why? In football, athleticism is the exception, not the rule. The game is populated primarily by small, weak, short guys who are technical whizzes with their feet, but would have zero chance in hell of playing one of the big North American sports where athleticism IS the rule (baseball not included, hell it's hardly even a sport
) Before people lose their minds, yes there are guys who could play American football or basketball or hockey if that is where they had gone athletically as children, but those are exceptions not the rule.What you saying about non-white guys?
yes Pogba is different than Kouyate, yet he is very physical. So, i think commentator was purely trying to compare two without having any racist perspective. At least I feel so.
I don't think he intended to offend. He trying to come up with interesting things to say on the spot during the match. I assume what he says is from habit. And that habit of using certain descriptions for black athletes is one that has drawn concern from those same athletes as well as people of color that aren't athletes. So I think it should be addressed. Let's stop saying things like this.
Will it change? Might take a while . Lukuaku's big d*ck chant was much more blatantly wrong and despite his own request fans didn't immediately stop singing it. So there's a precedent with some United fans already for not respecting these things or finding them that big a deal
Just so you're clear, most people don't agree with you about the conscious or unconscious drivers of his comments. So it's unlikely to change not because of any apathy or lack of morality, but because it is seen to be a ridiculous notion.
There are some terms that have racist connotations but what is being discussed in this thread aren't that. You will undoubtedly find descriptions of Ronaldo as a physical specimen, and you'll find kids on the street calling each other beasts. I've done both.
Pogba is an amazing athlete. He's a better technician I agree, but some people just really focus on athleticism. Just read posts from @Rossa for example. At least half of what he says relates to speed. It's perfectly reasonable to talk about two of the tallest, strongest, fastest players facing off on the middle of the pitch.
Specimen in isolation isn't the issue, whatsoever - many people, of all races get called that and one could be looking for something that isn't there if picking up on that word in isolation, like so many in this thread have done. The lead-on statement, which in combination with the usage of specimen, can easily carry racial undertones, is not dismissible.
You may well have called people or players specimens, but how many times have you put your words together in the manner Drury did?
I actually agree with you.
There is a wider issue, and it’s definitley not about what had been said. People are making an issue about what has been said, even going as far as actually ignoring what the commentator said and the context it was said in. Certain people are actually making up new things what the commentator didn’t say.
This is about who it was said about. Nobody bats an eyelid if it’s any other non white or white person.
You’re not on your own here, you are the 3rd person I’ve asked for proof linking the word Specimen to black slaves.
And nobody can create even a tenuous link.
If I’m not mistaken that’s the second time you’ve used the word obtuse. Is that your go to word when you’re challenged?
You are making up words that the commentator never said. “Go at it” never said.
“Specimens go at it” never said.
This is important.
Nobody ever said put them against each other in a fight.
But please keep patronising people who challenge your agenda.
The whole issue here is not what was said, it’s what race it was said about.
Racism is not black and white.
Nobody complains if this was said about a non white or white person.
Is it not racism to see racism in those comments? If I'd to pick the most athletic players from United it'd be Sanchez, Valencia, Bailly, Pogba & Rom.
There isn't many players who are strong and fast at United. It just so happens that 3 of the 5 of them are black. That's hardly racist to compliment someone on their physical aspect?
Ronaldo gets credited daily. Physical specimen, beast, ripped.. is that racist for a black person to say that about him?
There isn't many players who are strong and fast at United. It just so happens that 3 of the 5 of them are black. That's hardly racist to compliment someone on their physical aspect?
Ronaldo gets credited daily. Physical specimen, beast, ripped.. is that racist for a black person to say that about him?
Erm......3?Is it not racism to see racism in those comments? If I'd to pick the most athletic players from United it'd be Sanchez, Valencia, Bailly, Pogba & Rom.
There isn't many players who are strong and fast at United. It just so happens that 3 of the 5 of them are black. That's hardly racist to compliment someone on their physical aspect?
Ronaldo gets credited daily. Physical specimen, beast, ripped.. is that racist for a black person to say that about him?
Please stop quoting me.
Fair enough mate but by citing a particular commentator's quote in the OP other people are singling him out and well basically accusing him of being a racist.
I live in the UK mate but i'm aware people in the US have become more sensitive on issues like this in recent years.
Context is important here though mate i think, you can't just say people shouldn't use inoffensive words to describe someone just because they happen to be black. The word scrutinized here is specimen which is used all the time to describe footballers of all races. I don't think it's helpful to try to create an environment where not only are certain innocuous words off limits when describing black players even in context but even making any comments about a black players physical attributes at all which is the way it seems to be headed.
In context i think what the commentator said was fair enough, if Pogba or even Kouyate had just pulled off a piece of sublime skill or deftly dribbled around several players and curled one into the top corner. Then yes commentating on their physical attributes would seem off and i'd also think there was something behind those comments. But as it was he was talking about two big guys who were having a physical battle.
As i said i don't know for sure if Drury's comments were loaded, but i think you have to give people the benefit of the doubt unless it's much clearer.
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I think you have phrased your views on this very fairly. And in an honest attempt to appreciate that viewpoint I will say that yes, indeed I have maybe once or twice heard someone like Ronaldo described as a specimen. (@Brwned) But far more often that term is used with black athletes. So if we are looking at just that word or similar descriptions we can go back and forth and invariably would have to agree to disagree at some point.
The most poignant part of Drury's comment is the one being talked about the least and to my fault, it is not in the title though it is bolded in my transcript. It's the notion of paying to watch pogba against kouyate.
For me, being in the US and as noted, much more sensitive to subtleties at present, this payment aspect takes the comments to the next level. I find this distinguishes from focusing genuinely on athleticism to something that's weighed down by that history.
We all seem to agree, this isn't a conversation that will have a decided outcome. But I want to clarify the second point, the confounding comments and how they change the way I view the other part of the commentary.
Why? Because your agenda holds no water? Because you and sterling are the only ones pushing this ridiculous notion?
Evidence, you have non.
I did read that part mate or listened to it anyway, and i can see how it would maybe raise an eyebrow for someone who knows their history. But again we don't know what the commentators thinking behind that comment was, perhaps he is a boxing or MMA fan and was thinking about a potential match-up between two big physical guys from that point of view. Yes i'm sure if he thought about that comment in particular and how it could be interpreted i'm sure he wouldn't have said it. But he has to come up with to say quickly.
I have to go back to my original point which is i don't think this is a clear enough case to accuse the guy of racism/stereotyping conscious or not.
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I fail to see how the word specimen can be considered racist.
I think it’s highly unlikely he was talking about Pogba v Kouyate in a fight. I certainly, when I listened to the video at the start, interpreted it as meaning them going against each other on a football pitch.
All he was saying, in my view, was that it was a great footballing one on one battle which, as a commentator who gets to watch matches for free, he would pay to watch (regardless of the rest of the on pitch action).
Your view is very contrived . If he wanted to say that, he would have worded it that way.
Thank you for dragging me into this discussion. Yes, I do like pacy players, but above that, I like players that stand out in some form or another. Therefore, my favourites have always been players like Giggs, Scholes, Ronaldo, Rio, Schmeichel, DDG, even Carrick - the ones that are absolutely brilliant at what they do. I also now realize when you and @Amar__ have noticed my discussing speed too much, that I need to tone that down a notch or three, lest I be considered a racist or just some weirdo of sorts.
As for your post, I agree completely.
Consider the Ronaldo vs Messi discussions. Most pro-Messi would argue that Ronaldo is mostly a physical specimen, whereas Messi is the intelligent one. Ronaldo's ability to find pockets of space inside the 18 yard box has to do with intelligence, not his speed or strength, for instance.
For most people, it' simply easier to notice speed, strength and power over finesse and tactical prowess. It took people a long time to recognize what Carrick did for the team, and how he facilitated other players. Pogba is sort of a combination of many things. When he decides to, he can move across the pitch with great speed and outpace many players you would think are faster; he can outmuscle a player like Dembele, and he can ping a long range pass (almost) like Scholes. He can also dribble like some of the best wingers, and he can also tackle. At his best, he also dictates the tempo of the play. However, all these things are more difficult to notice, and let's face it, most football supporters are simple-minded like me and subsequently notice his strength and power over his finesse.
As Pogba stated, he really isn't criticized as a midfielder; he is expected to play as a striker and a defender at the same time. I don't think that has anything to do with racism. I think it has to do with the obvious fact that he is big and strong. If you consider Bale, he has always been discussed in terms of his pace and power over his other attributes simply because they are more dominant and easier to spot.
I'm really not sure what you mean by this. It's a very common figure of speech to say that 'you'd pay to watch it', when talking about something that is interesting to watch. I mean, maybe it's not common in America so it sounds weird to you? That's all I can think of, because otherwise that's a nothing comment that I hear all the time.
Honestly, the word 'specimens' is the only thing in this particular instance that I can see the remotest bit of possible racism in. It's the only thing I'm not 100% certain he would have said if it had been a couple of white guys that he was talking about if they had the exact same attributes as Pogba and Kouyate.
I am here to defend you that you are not racist, you just like to mention pace/speed often.
Thanks mate. I will try to vary my discussions more in the future!Because Pogba is very technically gifted and an athletic specimen yet he has failed to show it on pitch that he should be considered a very intelligent player. Henry was both as well as a very intelligent footballer. Drogba was as physically strong as Lukaku yet he also was far more intelligent with his runs in the box, taking on defenders and positioning than Lukaku. Pundits acknowledged it wholeheartedly. Seedorf for eg is considered one of the most technically gifted and intelligent footballers of his generation.
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As I said, that’s how I interpreted it when I first heard it - whereas contrived would suggest I’ve had to try really hard to reach that interpretation. I was very surprised to see people on this thread suggesting he was saying he’d want to watch them fight. It’s a fairly common expression if someone is at the top of their game to say you’d pay to watch it. It’s pretty certain he meant in a footballing context not that he’d pay to watch them fight (which would be a very bizarre comment!).
I think you're very much seeing something that isn't there in this case. I do think there are terms with racist connotations in the sporting lexicon that should be squeezed out, but I don't see it in this situation at all.
Yes people paid to watch two black slaves go at it 200 years ago. They also paid to watch white slaves go at it in the Roman times. We have entire sports dedicated around physical specimens going at it, with people of all colours. That is the explicit entertainment and millions of people watch it.
So paying to watch two specimens go at it on a football field is not in any way racist, in my view. It is a bit weird. But the response it generates is even weirder. It makes the wider discussion seem silly which is counterproductive in the long run.
I don't think I've the energy for this. Think it's time I bowed out. Nothing against you, Brwned, as you've proven time and again you're a good poster, but the back and forths, in this case, will alter nothing.
to say it is racist is to suggest that you can not comment on an athlete's physical attributes, especially if they stand out compared to others in their position. They are athlete's who are being referred to as athlete's. They are physically imposing for their respective positions, 6"3-6"4 is huge for a centre mid. Its not racist just because they didn't talk about what you want them to talk about. super reaching here.
I am feeling a bit drained by this as well. On the bright side, the sentiment was expressed even if to mixed response. I guess next time I’ll have to post about an incident that has more clearly understood roots in racism and historical discrimination.
It’s just a shame it takes more heartbreaking events to get this conversation going and not dismissed. But then again, something like a shooting or oh, the most recent incident in my beloved Philly where two men were arrested for simply sitting in a Starbucks , those are incidents that still create divide. Excuses. Always excuses to keep from acknowledging and having to make an effort to change a flaw and make social progress .
There is a time and place and I don't feel that a pundit describing 2 athlete's as athlete's compares. I know the starbucks incident and also people calling the police on black folks just for "being" in your country. That said, I feel that this one is a bit of outrage over very little.
Pogba fits the "specimen" description like most NBA players. He is one of the rare athletes that have at the same great agility, size and power. Now, it's true that he is also a great technician but that's something that everyone mention when they talk about him. An other point, a physical battle is very graphic which means that it's a very easy point to make during a game.
It really does have to settle on agree to disagree on whether this is over very little or not. I don't think I expected to change a lot of opinions here but it was absolutely worth discussing. This was no less important or informative than any of the weekly threads we have nitpicking the words of pundits on topics from solely football to player's Twitter profiles.
JP, mate, please read the piece below. It may provide you some insight and different perspective than you currently have:
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/powerful-pogba-and-unintelligent-lukaku/
I also have to point out that your reference to the NBA players is inappropriate - Pogba is 6'3" which is the average height of a point guard, the most diminuituve player on most basketball teams. Steph Curry for example is 6'3" as well. LeBron James, on the other hand, is almost half a foot taller at 6'8".
The way point guards move is amazing for their size whether you like it or not and the fact that Pogba moves the way he does isn't common in football. Also don't bring other articles into this, at no point did I told you that the stereotypes didn't exist but the fact it exists doesn't mean that you can accuse everyone at every turn, you need to put things into their context.
The article is from the OP. It’s relevant. Very aggressive tone there bud. You’re saying that all NBA players are specimens. I’m saying not quite and moreover even if they are , the term is reserved more often for one race. That’s the whole point of this discussion.
I said most not all and they are, that's why some of them have the ability to join the NFL despite little football experience because they have rare physical traits, mainly size, agility and body control. And no the word isn't reserved to one race in fact I'm not even sure if it's used often and the rare cases that I can remember weren't for black athletes, the examples I have in mind are Lou Gehrig, John Elway and Mandarich.
Then you have an article like this one, the title is unequivocal, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/845603-the-10-best-physical-specimens-in-mma-today#slide3.
There are several thorough analyses that pored through thousands of hours of sports commentary to compare. I value those pretty highly over both your and my own memory.
My focus here is on football. As in soccer. In this sport, the language is pretty one sided.
While I understand where you're coming from I think it's a bit nitpicky. These 2 players are both very strong physical players, which could result in an entertaining physical battle. Is it wrong to simply state this?
As for the term speciman, I have no idea what the connotations of this word are since I'm not a native speaker. Isn't it simply a matter of speaking though?
On the whole I agree that a lot of young black strikers are dubbed the new Drogba or Henry which is silly, same as every other blonde kid in Ajax' academy is the new Bergkamp. That's how the brain works for the most part I think. It's not intended to offend.
Though that does pose another potential problem which is that this racist thought process is so deepling ingrained in our psyche that it has become a subconscious thing.
TL;DR
meh.
As for the term speciman, I have no idea what the connotations of this word are since I'm not a native speaker. Isn't it simply a matter of speaking though?
On the whole I agree that a lot of young black strikers are dubbed the new Drogba or Henry which is silly, same as every other blonde kid in Ajax' academy is the new Bergkamp. That's how the brain works for the most part I think. It's not intended to offend.
Though that does pose another potential problem which is that this racist thought process is so deepling ingrained in our psyche that it has become a subconscious thing.
TL;DR
meh.
Seriously good post.
You've captured every side of the conversation succinctly, respectfully and most important for someone like me, been able to extrapolate to a bigger social reflection.
Which is fine but your example is in my opinion not a good one, there is no problem with the point that you are trying to make but you need to do it with an example that is relevant. Just think about it this way, in the context of the PL Kouyaté and Pogba are exactly what PL fans rave about, athletic superiority, while Pogba is more than that we can't pretend that people aren't looking for a dual between him and Kouyaté, also it happens that Kouyaté being a DM and Pogba an AM they were going to be matched all game. The same comment would have been a lot stranger in the rest of Europe where this subject isn't really important and is barely mentioned.
Now where I can agree with you is with the strange comparisons that are made by commentators, like with Makélélé-Kanté or Drogba-Lukaku in these cases it's easy to see what led the comparison and it's not their footballing characteristics.