hahahahaha. I love how they dressed up the white commentator as a true outback American in a suit. Classic from Key and Peele.
Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II
- Thread starter Sterling Archer
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hahahahaha. I love how they dressed up the white commentator as a true outback American in a suit. Classic from Key and Peele.
Is that it?
You push the racism agenda but yet have no substance behind it.
None!!!
Typical of people of your ilk
If you want someone to engage in a debate with you, don't post the incoherent ramblings you are currently producing.
100% true my friend, I was there when it was reiterated to youth scouts.what the feck?
Still nothing?
You still can not produce any evidence that what has been said is racist? So you deflect.
Because you have nothing.
Agree its definitely a problem, not entirely sure it is for this case though. Kouyate and Pogba do have similar builds and there aren't that many players who are tall, look physically really strong, but also agile and quick. That's "physical specimen" because they essentially have all the bases covered that you physically want from an athlete.
But in general, yeah gets applied way too much. Black players always have their physical attributes highlighted while white players more their intelligence. Happens with asians too. People instantly started comparing Kagawa to Park despite being completely different in every way.
But in general, yeah gets applied way too much. Black players always have their physical attributes highlighted while white players more their intelligence. Happens with asians too. People instantly started comparing Kagawa to Park despite being completely different in every way.
100% agree, some people just love being outraged at absolutely anything they can find!
The term is used to describe anyone who is tall, powerful and athletic. I have heard the term use in boxing,football,rugby and athletics.
People need to Stop being drama queens.
Nobody has said it is but that's the specific issue that is being considered in regards to the OP and something which you keep deflecting.
It happens for sure, but this is a poor example of it.
It proves that these supposed stereotypes are only used when it actually fits the player, therefore being a justifiable description of a person. It's not just those few examples.
Pogba is a very physical player, which makes sense because he's tall and muscular. We've seen him stepping through players all the time, fending them off from the sides. He's also crap at decision making. That fits him right into the supposed stereotype here. Are we supposed to pretend that's not what kind of player he is because of the colour of his skin?
He's regularly credited with his skill on the ball too (when we actually see it).
What exactly am
I deflecting?
I have blatantly said it’s not racism, covert or accidental.
What you or anyone else who may be pushing this agenda have yet to prove in a documented or other way that what has been said is actually racism.
So it seems that your definition of deflection may be askew my friend.
I will say it again, it is not racism at all.
This term “specimen” has been used in several contexts about a shit load of athletes.
But yet now it’s racist.
Now the text you highlighted was merely highlighting that point.
But because it was said about 2 black football players it’s racist, but yet a Portuguese, olive skinned athlete and what is said about him does not come under scrutiny? Because he’s not black?
To many people think racism is black and white.
I thought it was racist when it was said against an olive skinned Portuguese. Like he wasn't human.
Definitely when it's said against a black player it's racist.
So that backs up my point about peoples perception of racism only being black and white.
You only thought it was racist when said to a none black athlete but it definitely was when said about 2 black athletes.
1. That it's a stereotype regularly attributed to black footballers.
2. It's a lazy typical stereotype which is where a lot of racist insults are drawn from e.g the absent black father myth etc.
3. It's more the attribution of words such as specimen, power, brawn, etc. repeatedly when considering black athletes as the go to buzzwords to describe them and their playstyle rather than this specific incident being suddenly racist.
4. As i said previously, nobody is saying it's just black and white, but this is the specific incident discussed in the OP which is why i am concentrating on that.
He’s very strong, but he’s not as muscular as, say, Lukaku is. He’s shredded as shit though.
Your grasp of english is suspect. I thought it was racist either way.
Next time Lionel Messi gets into a tussle with Mark Noble I expect them to be compared similarly.
There is a theme that exists this season (and past) where the physical attributes of black players are focused on, whereas mental attributes are focused on for similar white players. Whether this is an example of that happening, for me, is debatable.
But to bury one's head in the sand and say "there's definitely no racism here" is silly. It is worth a debate because it is a real issue that has been raised several times this season. Just listen to Sounness on Pogba.
And Andy Townsend is a massively annoying knob. I hate listening to him commentate. Not surprising that he's at the center of this.
There is a theme that exists this season (and past) where the physical attributes of black players are focused on, whereas mental attributes are focused on for similar white players. Whether this is an example of that happening, for me, is debatable.
But to bury one's head in the sand and say "there's definitely no racism here" is silly. It is worth a debate because it is a real issue that has been raised several times this season. Just listen to Sounness on Pogba.
And Andy Townsend is a massively annoying knob. I hate listening to him commentate. Not surprising that he's at the center of this.
1. No it’s not, please provide evidence. Not just hearsay, evidence. There are other stereotypes about black men I’ve heard but this is not one of them.
2. No it’s not, provide evidence, don’t just call up other stereotypes to try and justify this as a stereotype.
3. Fellaini is a big daft lumbering tree. Is that racist? Or am I just pointing out his characteristics of the style of player he is. Those words are not solely attributed to black athletes, it doesn’t mean it’s racist because it’s said about a black athlete. Or in this case 2 that we’re very comparable in the strength and stature department.
4. This whole argument started by the OP was aimed at 2 black athletes....but when called upon to justify his claims and why it’s not racism to non black athletes the answer doesn’t appear to be forthcoming.
People on this thread have brought forward the argument it isn’t racist as the term specimen has been used on many a human being. They are specimens of nature, humankind, athletes, beasts...etc etc.
But it’s being singled out because it was said about 2 black athletes....not non white athletes.
So yes the perception in this thread is it’s about black and white.
The original post is an embarrassment to human beings fighting racism on a real level.
Get a grip. You can make a point without hyperbolic nonsense like this.
Please read what you wrote, thought-definitely. Two different words with 2 different meanings.
Even in the context you used them.
I’m not an English major but it’s not my grasp of English I need to look at.
No it doesn't, all it proves is that racial stereotyping in football is not universal.
Highly debatable whether OP is an example of such stereotyping, but it does happen.
True but not many players are as muscular as Lukaku. Pogba is still a big strong player, for people to suggest that saying he is big and strong is racist is absurd.
There are some big muscular white guys at my gym and me and mates refer to them as tanks, animals, beasts, specimens, machines etc. It is a way to describe an aesthetically stacked person. If I use them same terms about black guys at my gym it doesn’t automatically make my words racist.
That I definitely agree with.
Of course people have stereotypes and these affect their judgement. Most of the time, there is a confirmation bias at work, I would say. You see a player, have expectations based on his appearance, his nationality etc. and are happy to feel confirmed. But that's not only the case with black players. I think a Brazilian exemplarily is much more likely to appear "lazy" and "unprofessionell" to the fans since they expect him to be so. So, I don't think it is racism, just laziness. This is also why people tend to focus on the most obvious quality of a player. It is just less effort required when you don't "go in-depth" and look past your first impressions.
However, I think that technique in particular has nothing to do with it. It is not like people wouldn't admit black players are brillant on the ball when they are. Ronaldinho, Henry, Okocha, Robinho, Seedorf etc. were always praised for their skills. Currently, Marcelo, Thiago Alcantara or Mbappe come to mind. Noone would even dare denying their abilities on the ball. Generally, the stereotype depicts black players as street footballers, skilled but raw - especially tactically.
The thing is, if Pogba played like Zidane, he would get this praise, too. But he doesn't. He has the skills, that is true, but if you watch him play you definitely get the impression that he relies heavily on his physique.
With intelligence, it is a little bit harder. In Italy there was a scandal when a pundit said that black players are less intelligent so it is definitely true that there are some ugly racist stereotypes.
Yet, I would never say that Pogba is an intelligent player since I don't have the impression that he is one of these midfield maestros. And yes, I also think it is partly due to his physique. Take a player like Xavi for example. Very small and said himself that he didn't even lift weights up until he was 20 or so. He couldn't outrun or outpower his opponents so he had to learn how to compensate that by making the right decisions, seeing passing lanes, avoiding physical contact, evading tackles, solving tight situations with quick turns and one twos etc.
I think that this is called game intelligence and I don't think that Pogba has it. He did never really learn this playing style because he didn't have to. He can tank his way through midfield if he has to, could compensate possession losses or unsure technique through his physique and if he is challenged he could fend opponents off through his power and stamina. And most likely this was even more intense in the youth teams.
I believe this is why few players with Pogba's body type are regarded as "intelligent" footballers. In all honesty, I always thought that the CM didn't fit to his strengthes and weaknesses and thus wasn't really the best position for him.
However, I think that technique in particular has nothing to do with it. It is not like people wouldn't admit black players are brillant on the ball when they are. Ronaldinho, Henry, Okocha, Robinho, Seedorf etc. were always praised for their skills. Currently, Marcelo, Thiago Alcantara or Mbappe come to mind. Noone would even dare denying their abilities on the ball. Generally, the stereotype depicts black players as street footballers, skilled but raw - especially tactically.
The thing is, if Pogba played like Zidane, he would get this praise, too. But he doesn't. He has the skills, that is true, but if you watch him play you definitely get the impression that he relies heavily on his physique.
With intelligence, it is a little bit harder. In Italy there was a scandal when a pundit said that black players are less intelligent so it is definitely true that there are some ugly racist stereotypes.
Yet, I would never say that Pogba is an intelligent player since I don't have the impression that he is one of these midfield maestros. And yes, I also think it is partly due to his physique. Take a player like Xavi for example. Very small and said himself that he didn't even lift weights up until he was 20 or so. He couldn't outrun or outpower his opponents so he had to learn how to compensate that by making the right decisions, seeing passing lanes, avoiding physical contact, evading tackles, solving tight situations with quick turns and one twos etc.
I think that this is called game intelligence and I don't think that Pogba has it. He did never really learn this playing style because he didn't have to. He can tank his way through midfield if he has to, could compensate possession losses or unsure technique through his physique and if he is challenged he could fend opponents off through his power and stamina. And most likely this was even more intense in the youth teams.
I believe this is why few players with Pogba's body type are regarded as "intelligent" footballers. In all honesty, I always thought that the CM didn't fit to his strengthes and weaknesses and thus wasn't really the best position for him.
Souness is the same, always goes on about Pogba's main asset being his "physicality"
How many black players can you think of that commentators / pundits call a "playmaker" or a "clever player" in the way they do for, say, Alonso, Carrick, Pirlo or, further forward, the likes of Silva / De Bruyne? No, the narrative with them always seems to be power / pace / strength.
I remember being nausiated every time Henry was described as "silky" or "cultured" (because they said it every time he played). Lingard, Sturridge and Welbeck generally get praised for non-phsyical stuff.
I don't think it's stereotyping if it's an actual description of the kind of player they are though. It'd only be proof of stereotyping if it was said about those that aren't as well, surely?
There's an argument to be made that people are more inclined to describe a player in a certain way, but there's way too much proof of it being the same across the board (and usually a justifiable description) as mentioned below.
How many are there that fit the playmaker description right now? Pogba is supposed to be something like our KDB isn't he? He gets all the plaudits when he turns up. Evra was our Alonso. Valencia got all the credit for that great season. Zaha is getting credit for ability now. Seedorf did. Davids did. Patrick Kluivert. Players renowned for their ability. It goes on and on.
If a player is tall, muscly, bulky or a combination of these, you're bound to see more comments regarding physicality. Vidic, Crouch, Fellaini, Carroll, Ronaldo are examples of this. Even Rooney was because of his bulk. It's no surprise Pogba, Lukaku, Toure etc. get the same and I don't get why that shouldn't be the case.
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There are a plethora of studies and articles which have been written concerning this matter and they're all readily available should you wish to google them. Easy to find, and simply put, there is a physical stereotype attributed to black athletes.
I don't have anything other to say tbh as you are unable to grasp the simple point that is at the root of this and keep bringing it back to "it can't be racist because white athletes get called it"
Townsend actually disagreed with Drurys comments. No one said lock them up.
You need to pay attention. Maybe read the thread.
This was the first thing the thread reminded me of. Again In the derby a few weeks back when he scored 2, all he could say was athlete/specimen.
Fair post.
Can't remember seeing Townsend commentate on a match in years, thankfully.
Funny that you admit your ignorance to the history of black racism in your first paragraph. I.e. The slave trade viewing slaves as specimens, like working animals to be traded.
Then you go on to speak for all people who have fought racism across the World in your final paragraph, despite your clear lack of understanding.
Then which players would deserve to be called so yet aren't? The only playmaker I can currently think of who plays like that is Seri in Nizza (don't really know how he performed this season but in the last he was brillant). Maybe Alaba for Austria. Currently there are few black players dominating the midfield but back in the day, there were Seedorf, Davids, Ze Roberto, Senna and many more. I think there are so, so many further forwards but it is already enough to mention Ronaldinho. And if you count holding midfielders, you can also name guys like Fernandinho, Kante or Viera, Makele etc. in the past.
It's a bit of a difficult one because I don't think it's conscious at all. It's a generation of people who were playing when nobody would bat an eyelid at the suggestion that black players were generally of the "physical" type, and they've brought that ingrained mentality into a time where it's just not the case and it's causing them to neglect other qualities in black players.
So while I don't think they mean any harm or believe they are in any way superior to a black man because of their race, something does need to be done to stop it. Talking about black men for their physiques alone carries some truly awful historical connotations.
So while I don't think they mean any harm or believe they are in any way superior to a black man because of their race, something does need to be done to stop it. Talking about black men for their physiques alone carries some truly awful historical connotations.
Yup, I think this is one of those things people forget or want to forget about the history and meaning behind these words.
In the clip in particular, it's not just that use of specimen, it's combined with 'id pay to watch pogba against '
What does that mean exactly? You pay to watch these two play football as it is. So he'd pay to watch them what...fight it out in the back? In a ring ? Not that it matters where.
There are many examples, Pogba and Yaya are two of the most stark. The main thing that stuck with me the first time I watched them play is how technically gifted of footballers they are. But when I went to the media or online discussions, it was mostly about power, strength, physicality and the like regarding their attributes. Their creativity, finesse and in general the way they are able to manipulate a football and cut open opposing defenses comes as an afterthought, sometimes never even mentioned. Ridiculous
I'm not sure i understand modern racism, or should i say what people interpret as racism in recent times.
I don't like Drury but he's commentating on a game of football and has to say whatever comes to mind quickly. He is watching a game where two midfielders are having a physical battle, both these players happen to be big athletic guys. So he comments on them being big athletic guys, or specimens as he puts it.
I suppose Drury could be a secret racist stereotyping black players or he could be subconsciously labeling them because of stereotypes he will have heard for years, it's possible.
It's also possible that it was a completely innocent comment that had no racist thought behind it at all, that people who see everything through the prism of race have unfairly found fault with. Either way it's not conclusive so i'm not sure what there really is to discuss.
I don't like Drury but he's commentating on a game of football and has to say whatever comes to mind quickly. He is watching a game where two midfielders are having a physical battle, both these players happen to be big athletic guys. So he comments on them being big athletic guys, or specimens as he puts it.
I suppose Drury could be a secret racist stereotyping black players or he could be subconsciously labeling them because of stereotypes he will have heard for years, it's possible.
It's also possible that it was a completely innocent comment that had no racist thought behind it at all, that people who see everything through the prism of race have unfairly found fault with. Either way it's not conclusive so i'm not sure what there really is to discuss.