Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

GoonerBear said:
Interesting. You think there's been a major shift from last season? I think we got 20 goals from set pieces last season from 91 goals so 22%.

This season so far I think we have 7 from 28 goals so 25%.

For comparison sakes, I think I read Utd have scored 5 from 17 goals from set pieces this season, so 29%.
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Not being an Arsenal fan it’s a limited number of games, but as @Donaldo says maybe it was more second half of season. Not sure why people seem to get defensive about the playing style though, it is what it is and we’ll see if it works. I’m not even really talking about set pieces, I feel there’s much more a sense of containing the opposition versus trying to play ‘nice’ football.

I don’t think there’s much between you, Pool and Chelsea this season. And City will no doubt come back given the quality of their squad. Will be interesting to see if this approach can get you over line.
 
This stuff about corners and set pieces has taken on a life of it's own at this point :lol:

We'd all want our teams to be extremely efficient in scoring from set pieces. Every corner our teams get we're hoping we can score from it. So I don't see how something we all want our teams to be good at should now be a stick to beat Arsenal with. That makes no sense.

The style of play is a different conversation. They went through a spell of playing really dull football while Odegaard was out. They seem incredibly over reliant on him to play entertaining football. I think the criticisms here is somewhat fair, even if a little exaggerated. Outside the United game, they've looked very good since Odegaard's return.
 
Could we maybe change the "Lego Pep" part to something with Pulis or Stoke? Cause he's closer to Pulis playing style than Pep.
 
WeePat said:
This stuff about corners and set pieces has taken on a life of it's own at this point :lol:

We'd all want our teams to be extremely efficient in scoring from set pieces. Every corner our teams get we're hoping we can score from it. So I don't see how something we all want our teams to be good at should now be a stick to beat Arsenal with. That makes no sense.

The style of play is a different conversation. They went through a spell of playing really dull football while Odegaard was out. They seem incredibly over reliant on him to play entertaining football. I think the criticisms here is somewhat fair, even if a little exaggerated. Outside the United game, they've looked very good since Odegaard's return.
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Credit is definitely due to Saka and Rice for incredible deliveries. The rest of the pre-planned shenanigans in the box are debatable as to their legality. Especially the Havertz lean on the goalkeeper while showing zero interest in the ball. But it's working, so good for them.
 
WeePat said:
This stuff about corners and set pieces has taken on a life of it's own at this point :lol:

We'd all want our teams to be extremely efficient in scoring from set pieces. Every corner our teams get we're hoping we can score from it. So I don't see how something we all want our teams to be good at should now be a stick to beat Arsenal with. That makes no sense.

The style of play is a different conversation. They went through a spell of playing really dull football while Odegaard was out. They seem incredibly over reliant on him to play entertaining football. I think the criticisms here is somewhat fair, even if a little exaggerated. Outside the United game, they've looked very good since Odegaard's return.
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I've found this thread to be pretty entertaining since the match.

And I agree, Arteta could have done a much better job dealing with Odegaard's absence.
 
berbatrick said:
I don't think finishing second, 2 or 5 points behind the winner, on a points total that would usually be enough to win the PL before Pep, is the same as the "top 4" seasons Wenger was delivering from 2009 onwards.

And, having seen EtH's 2 trophy spell, and vaguely remembering Wenger's 3 FA Cup farewell seasons, I agree with the Arsenal fans here that challenging for the league is better than winning a cup and going nowhere in the league. Though of course most people here disagree with that and value trophies above all else.

e - also worth pointing out that they don't get beaten anymore. Abiding memory of late Wenger, and all of ETH, is big score thrashings from City and Liverpool. Arsenal have stopped that. I think when remembering a season, those count a lot as well.
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I agree that playing well and challenging for the league and deep runs in the CL are much better than winning a league cup for example.

The point I’m trying to make is Arsenal aren’t doing those thing apart from the two seasons where they came so close.

This season, they’re not fun or exciting to watch. When Odegaard was injured, they just looked toothless. Their style of play isn’t fun, but pragmatic. A few more years of this without any major trophies (or even with some FA cup, but playing Mourinho-like football) and I’m sure questions will be asked where are they going?
 
iKnowNothing said:
I agree that playing well and challenging for the league and deep runs in the CL are much better than winning a league cup for example.

The point I’m trying to make is Arsenal aren’t doing those thing apart from the two seasons where they came so close.

This season, they’re not fun or exciting to watch. When Odegaard was injured, they just looked toothless. Their style of play isn’t fun, but pragmatic. A few more years of this without any major trophies (or even with some FA cup, but playing Mourinho-like football) and I’m sure questions will be asked where are they going?
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You're correct that this is only our third title challenge. But this only will be Arteta's fifth full season and we were 11th when he took over. From where we were, a third straight genuine challenge is an amazing turnaround. Arsenal are the only club outside of City and Liverpool to even challenge for the title in 8 seasons - its a bit mad.

We do need to progress, though. We now have a strong enough squad to challenge on all fronts so that is the next aim.
 
I’m slightly surprised by the view that the overall performance from Wednesday was as poor as some of you are claiming. The first half from both teams was dire, as you successfully didn’t give us an inch, but also didn’t seem to have much interest in going forward. But in the second half, I thought we were exceptional and could/ should have scored more than we did.
 
ThierryHenry said:
I’m slightly surprised by the view that the overall performance from Wednesday was as poor as some of you are claiming. The first half from both teams was dire, as you successfully didn’t give us an inch, but also didn’t seem to have much interest in going forward. But in the second half, I thought we were exceptional and could/ should have scored more than we did.
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Yeah this part was mostly down to having, Mount, Malacia, Dalot and Garnacho in charge off doing that(neither which are any good at that part, specially against a team like Arsenal). Also Højlund being more busy fighting for the ball with the CBs, than bringing his teammates into play.

Also, do you think Arsenal would've scored without "Delap with feet"? Because I don't.
 
Daydreamer said:
You're correct that this is only our third title challenge. But this only will be Arteta's fifth full season and we were 11th when he took over. From where we were, a third straight genuine challenge is an amazing turnaround. Arsenal are the only club outside of City and Liverpool to even challenge for the title in 8 seasons - its a bit mad.

We do need to progress, though. We now have a strong enough squad to challenge on all fronts so that is the next aim.
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Not true.

If two seasons ago is a title challenge from Arsenal, so was Ole's season where we finished 2nd.
 
erikcred said:
Not true.

If two seasons ago is a title challenge from Arsenal, so was Ole's season where we finished 2nd.
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Finishing 2nd doesn't necessarily equal a title challenge. Arsenal lost to City during the run in where winning that match would have erased City's lead. City finished 12 points ahead of United. It's not really the same thing at all.
 
erikcred said:
Not true.

If two seasons ago is a title challenge from Arsenal, so was Ole's season where we finished 2nd.
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Do you really think the season Arsenal was comfortably number one until mid April is similar to a season where United were trailing 13 points end of February?
 
CoopersDream said:
Do you really think the season Arsenal was comfortably number one until mid April is similar to a season where United were trailing 13 points end of February?
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Not similar, sure. Only difference is that one "title challenge" collapsed a bit later than the other.

Arsenal scoring 12 points in the last quarter of the season is a complete collapse and the title was comfortably won. A City team that were used to scoring high 90s were not really "challenged" by Arsenal in that season.
 
erikcred said:
Not similar, sure. Only difference is that one "title challenge" collapsed a bit later than the other.

Arsenal scoring 12 points in the last quarter of the season is a complete collapse and the title was comfortably won. A City team that were used to scoring high 90s were not really "challenged" by Arsenal in that season.
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Isn't the very definition of a title challenge how late into the season the challenge goes?
 
erikcred said:
Not similar, sure. Only difference is that one "title challenge" collapsed a bit later than the other.

Arsenal scoring 12 points in the last quarter of the season is a complete collapse and the title was comfortably won. A City team that were used to scoring high 90s were not really "challenged" by Arsenal in that season.
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You agree it's not similar, then it doesn't make much sense to say "if that was a title challenge this was also a title challenge". Glad we can agree about that.

By any meaning of the word, a team that was number one for 7 months and were only ever properly behind after losing to the league winners late April did indeed challenge for the title.
 
RedC said:
Arsenal were playing nicer football earlier in the project than they are now.
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I would go so far as to say that the attractiveness of Arsenal's football is getting worse year on year. Don't expect any gooners to care about that, because results have improved, but the advantages that have come from looking for those edges has been at the cost of entertaining football (for a neutral).

Even that awful song they come out to now feels like a focus group 'how can we get 5% more passion' takeaway.
 
Daydreamer said:
Isn't the very definition of a title challenge how late into the season the challenge goes?
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I was actually thinking about this the other day. How we do define proper title challenge? Is it if the team is in the 1st or around 1st place with (let's say) 8 games to go - so early April? If you're out of the race by February/March, then don't think you were really challenging falling behind that early.
 
Bilbo said:
I would go so far as to say that the attractiveness of Arsenal's football is getting worse year on year. Don't expect any gooners to care about that, because results have improved, but the advantages that have come from looking for those edges has been at the cost of entertaining football (for a neutral).

Even that awful song they come out to now feels like a focus group 'how can we get 5% more passion' takeaway.
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I agree on both counts. Our football is less fluid. The most exciting football we've played under Arteta was 22/23 with the Xhaka - Partey - Odegaard midfield. That was only made possible by the emergence of Saliba that season. Saliba's and (the often overlooked) Tomiyasu's injuries in the Europa League QF meant we couldn't play our high line with Rob Holding in it. This put way too much pressure on Partey to cover ground, his form fell off a cliff and we crumbled.

That was viewed as a mental collapse, but it was actually a thin squad and a defensive system that was overly reliant on key individuals staying fit. Arteta learned from that and now our defence is robust. We played United with the left half of our back line out and Kiwior and Zinchenko slotted in fairly seamlessly. Our defensive system is less brittle and Zinchenko has gone from first choice to squad depth, which shows how much stronger our squad is.

However, going forward we've actually become more reliant upon individuals staying fit. If any of Odegaard, Saka or even Havertz get a long term injury, we're pretty screwed. Arteta needs to do for our forwards what he did for our back line.

But also, as a fan I am enjoying seeing us become a more rounded team.

Lastly, the weird thing about North London Forever is that is genuinely was a song made by a fan. The fan base is a bit split on whether or not it's cringe, but if we keep playing it then in years to come it will inevitably be an anthem for us.
 
The whole league has become less attractive on the eye this season.

Looking specifically at the forward lines, take Salah out of Liverpool and Haaland out of City and the individuals for most to the "Top" teams is a bit uninspired. United's front line is dire most weeks.

Maybe Lego Pep is just a few months ahead of the curve(?) and route one long ball mixed with set pieces is the best way to compensate for a lack of CF talent in world football.
 
CoopersDream said:
You agree it's not similar, then it doesn't make much sense to say "if that was a title challenge this was also a title challenge". Glad we can agree about that.

By any meaning of the word, a team that was number one for 7 months and were only ever properly behind after losing to the league winners late April did indeed challenge for the title.
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Not necessarily.

My point is that neither was really a title challenge by the standards that have been set in the PL. I'll give that Arsenal season a "plucky fight, good try". Fluking a bunch of wins in the first half of the season doesn't make it a title challenge. City always had it under control and even won it with a few games left.

Contrast it with the Liverpool title where once they had a huge lead early on, City practically gave up and ended up 20 points behind or something because they knew what they were up against.

But don't worry, last season was a title challenge from Arsenal for sure.
 
erikcred said:
Not necessarily.

My point is that neither was really a title challenge by the standards that have been set in the PL. I'll give that Arsenal season a "plucky fight, good try". Fluking a bunch of wins in the first half of the season doesn't make it a title challenge. City always had it under control and even won it with a few games left.

Contrast it with the Liverpool title where once they had a huge lead early on, City practically gave up and ended up 20 points behind or something because they knew what they were up against.

But don't worry, last season was a title challenge from Arsenal for sure.
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You don't actually believe that, though, do you? Your actual opinion took about 30 seconds to find in the Arsenal 2024/25 thread and is pretty reasonable...
erikcred said:
After having won nothing, it was always going to be difficult to put in another proper title challenge for a third year in a row.

If I remember correctly, not even Klopp's Liverpool could pull off three title challenges in a row against City.
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But for some reason this thread is full statements like, "Fluking a bunch of wins in the first half of the season doesn't make it a title challenge."

I'm not sure if that's meant to get a rise out of Arsenal fans. We can be an overly reactive fanbase, but the banter has to at least be somewhat plausible in order to wind us up. A lot of the stuff in this this thread since the match has been more laughable than anything else.
 
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I wanted Arsenal to win the league this year over Liverpool or City.. but after seeing all the reaction from the Arsenal fans, I do not want them to win the league anymore.

One of the weirdest fan bases seriously. I hope they dont win this title.
 
erikcred said:
Not necessarily.

My point is that neither was really a title challenge by the standards that have been set in the PL. I'll give that Arsenal season a "plucky fight, good try". Fluking a bunch of wins in the first half of the season doesn't make it a title challenge. City always had it under control and even won it with a few games left.

Contrast it with the Liverpool title where once they had a huge lead early on, City practically gave up and ended up 20 points behind or something because they knew what they were up against.

But don't worry, last season was a title challenge from Arsenal for sure.
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Sure, a team that holds the unwanted record of being top of the table for most calendar days in a season but not winning it at the end did not challenge for the title.
 
CannonBalls said:
Sure, a team that holds the unwanted record of being top of the table for most calendar days in a season but not winning it at the end did not challenge for the title.
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So many ridiculous takes these past few days:lol:
Sour grapes and massive coping hidden behind fake "we're just trying to understand and analyze Arsenal's football philosophy"
 
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ThierryHenry said:
I’m slightly surprised by the view that the overall performance from Wednesday was as poor as some of you are claiming. The first half from both teams was dire, as you successfully didn’t give us an inch, but also didn’t seem to have much interest in going forward. But in the second half, I thought we were exceptional and could/ should have scored more than we did.
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Bloody hell. Neither side were exceptional. I’m surprised you thought that was the case.
 
He’s spent £700m, he needs to deliver…No more ‘soft’ excuses..
 
GoonerBear said:
I missed this yesterday. Listen, I'm not naive, I know the size of Utd, I know the expectations, I know the scrutiny. Your a bigger club than Arsenal on every scale, but let's not pretend Arsenal aren't a big club in its own right, just behind Utd & Liverpool in terms of trophies won and history. We have our own expectations, one that the best manager in our modern era stopped living up to and we had to let him go.

I appreciate Arteta was afforded patience, but if your going to appoint a rookie manager with no managerial experience, then you aren't doing that for a quick fix, that's for sure.

And yeah, then he was then backed with money. Let's not forget, the money didn't really come straight away for him, he joined mid season and his January window was to get Pablo Mari and Cedic Soares on loan, and his first summer was basically getting Partey and Gabriel for about £70M and William on a free.

And like I said, the pressure was on him massively in the December of that year. If that form lasted another few games, that's the 1 time he could easily have been sacked. But then, he turned the form around 2nd half of the season. Thats what I'm trying to emphasise, the 8th place finish in his first full season in isolation looks poor (I don't really count his first half season). So while the record books show that 8th place finish there is nuance to it, and it was turning that corner when he did that ultimately saved his job. Also, don't forget, this was during Covid times. Training was difficult, match days were difficult, how do you try and change and impose a new culture with all that nonsense was going on?

Here's a question for you, do you think ETH would be sacked if he was sitting 4th or 5th just now?
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In terms of the 2 trophies that mean by far the most,arsenal are far behind lfc and manchester united Arsenal are very big but lfc and manchester united are iconic and giant football clubs.
 
Arsenal fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team at the turn of the century (even then 2nd fiddle to United dominance) sold fans dreams. Then lack of success for 20 years and now they’re happy with choking league titles and getting more and more defensive while other teams steam past them. They’ve only won 1 FA Cup in 8 years and that’s all. Even United have yielded more silverware in our worst period in 40+ years.
 
Offside said:
Arsenal fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team at the turn of the century (even then 2nd fiddle to United dominance) sold fans dreams. Then lack of success for 20 years and now they’re happy with choking league titles and getting more and more defensive while other teams steam past them. They’ve only won 1 FA Cup in 8 years and that’s all. Even United have yielded more silverware in our worst period in 40+ years.
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:lol:
 
Offside said:
Arsenal fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team at the turn of the century (even then 2nd fiddle to United dominance) sold fans dreams. Then lack of success for 20 years and now they’re happy with choking league titles and getting more and more defensive while other teams steam past them. They’ve only won 1 FA Cup in 8 years and that’s all. Even United have yielded more silverware in our worst period in 40+ years.
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Damn, that's a truth and a half. Really funny when you put it that way :lol:
 
Offside said:
Arsenal fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team at the turn of the century (even then 2nd fiddle to United dominance) sold fans dreams. Then lack of success for 20 years and now they’re happy with choking league titles and getting more and more defensive while other teams steam past them. They’ve only won 1 FA Cup in 8 years and that’s all. Even United have yielded more silverware in our worst period in 40+ years.
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Ouch
 
Offside said:
Arsenal fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team at the turn of the century (even then 2nd fiddle to United dominance) sold fans dreams. Then lack of success for 20 years and now they’re happy with choking league titles and getting more and more defensive while other teams steam past them. They’ve only won 1 FA Cup in 8 years and that’s all. Even United have yielded more silverware in our worst period in 40+ years.
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United fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team under a genius Manager sold fans dreams. Then lack of success since SAF retired and now they're happy that they can never be accused of choking league titles because they haven't even challenged for one in over a decade. They've won four trophies since SAF left, including a European competition that top teams don't even play in, plus one their own fans nicknamed "the Micky Mouse Cup". Even Arsenal have yielded 4 x FA Cups in our worst period in 40+ years.
 
Daydreamer said:
United fans are really in a terrible place. Superb team under a genius Manager sold fans dreams. Then lack of success since SAF retired and now they're happy that they can never be accused of choking league titles because they haven't even challenged for one in over a decade. They've won four trophies since SAF left, including a European competition that top teams don't even play in, plus one their own fans nicknamed "the Micky Mouse Cup". Even Arsenal have yielded 4 x FA Cups in our worst period in 40+ years.
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Erm that doesn’t really work..
 
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