He‘s got, what, 18 months left on his contract? He’s clearly not progressing with you lot. I imagine he’d jump at the chance to play alongside other English youngsters like Saka, ESR, White and Ramsdale, not to mention exciting talents like Odegaard and Martinelli. Of course he’s affordable given you lot not playing him is likely to drive values down not up.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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He‘s got, what, 18 months left on his contract? He’s clearly not progressing with you lot. I imagine he’d jump at the chance to play alongside other English youngsters like Saka, ESR, White and Ramsdale, not to mention exciting talents like Odegaard and Martinelli. Of course he’s affordable given you lot not playing him is likely to drive values down not up.
He has contract till 2025 with option to extend for one more year. Re the rest of the post, all I can say is
. Greenwood jumping at the chance to play for Arsenal, two more wins and Neymar will be waiting outside Emirates with his own pen to sign Arsenal contract.And how the feck this narrative that Geenwood is not playing started? He started 11 league games, 3 CL games. He was also out injured/Covid. So he is playing regularly. If anything, you can sign de beek. He barely gets a game.
Greenwood is 9th in league mins for Manutd. He is also 9th in total mins played by outfield player.
So Greenwood with 11 league games out of 17 is not playing regularly (also missing few games with Covid) but Arsenal players
ESR - 13 starts in 19 games
Odegaard - 13 starts in 19
Martinelli - 8 starts in 19 are regular players. Also ManUtd played in CL, so they had to rotate the team, Arsenal don't even have that excuse.
He has contract till 2025 with option to extend for one more year. Re the rest of the post, all I can say is
And how the feck this narrative that Geenwood is not playing started? He started 11 league games, 3 CL games. He was also out injured/Covid. So he is playing regularly. If anything, you can sign de beek. He barely gets a game.
Greenwood is 9th in league mins for Manutd. He is also 9th in total mins played by outfield player.
So Greenwood with 11 league games out of 17 is not playing regularly (also missing few games with Covid) but Arsenal players
ESR - 13 starts in 19 games
Odegaard - 13 starts in 19
Martinelli - 8 starts in 19 are regular players. Also ManUtd played in CL, so they had to rotate the team, Arsenal don't even have that excuse.
Leaving aside the whataboutery, so why is his agent punting him around?
Explain why you dissent from that view
I understand from your points breakdown (23, 33) that you are not counting the Everton game as Arteta's first, which is fair since he'd only been appointed very recently. That means there should be 20 games for Arteta, not 18.
33/20 is 1.65. 23/18 is 1.28. This means that, under Arteta, the performances improved by 0.37 points per game compared to the rest of the season.
I would expect PPG to improve under a new manager, because the reason you fire a manager is that performances are not up to par. The question then, is how much improvement should we expect. I found this quantification:
So there is a difference of 0.3 PPG when you change manager. Very close to the 0.37 PPG difference between Arteta's stint and the rest of the season. To me this shows the pitfalls of making these type of comparisons, and why it is difficult to separate the influence of the manager from everything else.
That leaves me with judging pure outcome, the league placement, which wasn't good. That's not 'all his fault' of course. By definition, he wasn't the manager the whole time. Is that fair? Not really. If Arteta had died in a tragic asteroid incident after the 2019-2020 season ended, I would just not have an opinion. The problem is he didn't; instead, he had a bad second season where he finished 8th after hovering between 9th and 10th for most of it. If I combine the two, the overall picture is grim.
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Genuinely, do you think Greenwood - among the brightest young players in England right now - will jump at a chance to play for Arsenal, who haven't qualified for CL in 5 years?
I'm certain we won't let him leave -his contract is till 2025, but even if he does leave for some reason, he'd go to a bigger team than Arsenal, with all due respect to you guys.
I guess I should take that as a compliment, considering Arsenal were a considerably better team a decade ago than they are right now!
Because that all depends on viewpoints. Utd have a much more experienced, quality squad than ours that is just underperforming. They could & perhaps should still finish ahead of us this year. A manager like Tuchel or Conte has already shown that you get the right top class coach in, they can make an instant impact.
That's just Utd. I fear you are jumping the gun for where we are. Sure, we are in a good run, & things look up, but all it takes is a couple of defeats, say to City, Liverpool & Spurs over the next few weeks, & the dynamics change again, & pressure will likely be on Arteta again.
Even if you do feel that way, it's not really the done thing to go on a rivals forum & say they are 2 years behind any club, never mind behind a club that hasn't finished ahead of them in the league for a few years.
C'mon mate, your not doing our credibility any good on here!
Given their new manager faces the same problems we had 2 years ago with lots of deadwood, old players that needed to be cleared out, I’d say the comparison is valid. Maybe explain why you disagree?
Where?
No smoke without fire, the leaks to the press suggest he’s not happy. Who knows, come the end of the season we might be higher placed than you lot. I agree he’s a great talent, though.
Press reports of his unhappiness and being linked to Arsenal. Google it.
I wanted him sacked from around Christmas last season, and that feeling hit fever pitch a few weeks into this season. Though recently he's slowly started turning it around, which is a credit to him.
I may not rate him that highly (currently), but I sure do want him to succeed.
On a related note - if he has as much of a say in our most recent transfer dealings then the garbage and predictably laughable deals for Willian, Soares and Mari plus the Xhaka extension (all Arteta endorsed) can be forgiven.
I may not rate him that highly (currently), but I sure do want him to succeed.
On a related note - if he has as much of a say in our most recent transfer dealings then the garbage and predictably laughable deals for Willian, Soares and Mari plus the Xhaka extension (all Arteta endorsed) can be forgiven.
The deadwood that our fans say - will be out this season as most of them are out of contract - Lingard, Mata, even Pogba. Cavani is leaving as is. Jones, Matic might leave as well. So, among the older players- it's just Ronaldo.
I mean we haven't played well, but that doesn't make AWB, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, McT, etc deadwood ffs
You're dreaming mate.
One trophy shouldn't be used strongly to access him either way, Pulisic doesn't pull up and it's Lampard lifting that trophy, would that alone have suddenly stopped everything that went wrong for us the following year?
Nice moment in isolation but look at the list of managers who have lifted the domestic cups this side of the millennium, should big clubs be looking at Redknapp or McLeish?
I don't have to Google it, the shit has been posted here and everyone laughed at the source.
Do you believe everything that's reported by Sun, Mirror and other shit papers?
No one believes that garbage, bar maybe him.
It's all different expectations. We finished 2nd and 3rd but we feel we have Deadwood and lot of them as we didn't finish first. Arsenal finsihed 8th and now in 4th position (which they obviously will lose) and they think they have awesome squad. It's all about expectations.
Yeah, it takes maybe couple of mins to verify the sources. No wonder he is in some fantasy world.
And his agent decided to leak this to Fijaches and El Nacional? Because those were the only 2 sources I was able to find.
And look, he's neither unhappy nor getting limited minutes - if anything, atleast under Ole he was given more chances than he deserved at times at the start of last season (under RR, it's too early to say anything). So even if you do finish higher in your wild scenario, and Mason hands in a transfer request in that weird scenario, why do you think he'll go to Arsenal of all clubs! You aren't CL regulars, and there's nothing to suggest you're on the verge of some breakout season
See the post above the 1 I've just quoted.
Well said. Anyday I would rate a manager more that finished 3rd and 2nd in his full season than a manager who finished 8th.
I don’t think there’s any hope in hell of Greenwood moving from United to Arsenal. I think he’s be a brilliant addition to that arsenal side, but I don’t see why he’d make the move.
I can understand arsenal fans optimism but they should not be too giddy here. Their next two games in PL is city and spurs. Win or get 4 points from those two then some may accept things are slowly turning for good but chances are they lose both the games and all comes back to square one.
Probably more chance of Saka moving to Man Utd than Greenwood moving to Arsenal.
We'll have to agree to disagree, because you seem to be a rare person who thinks the overall picture is grim.
His first season for the games he was in charge, he was in the top 6 relatively, and won an FA cup, which is a perfectly fine start.
His second season started terribly, we were very poor for the first 15 games of the season which set a bad tone for the whole season. But ever since then he's completely turned it around. So, yes, he's had a bad spell of 15 games out of a total of around 75 games.
If you want to focus on that period and not look into the whole picture than that's upto you, but he has shown enough over the past year to show me there's progress to be made.
But, I will say the last step is to cement this over a 38 game season, as I agree that is the final and biggest test.
That’s just setting a very high bar. City is the best side in the world and in full flow right now. Getting any result there would be a big positive but a loss is basically expected and really wouldn’t change my view of Arsenal’s current trajectory (on the upswing but not anywhere near City’s level).
Really? I'd like something from City, but equally as long as we don't get rolled over then it is what it is. They are literally in full force right now.
Spurs, i'd like at least a point but again, they're at home and in good form.
Not sure the results will determine anything, but I would like to see us put up a fight in both games.
If you want to truly progress you actually have to start getting results in the big games especially at home.
You can't keep treating these games as free hits forever, especially in the form you're currently in.
However, ultimately you have to start competing with these clubs. You can't just write these big games off and then call that progress. If that is progress why even sack wenger. Going there and losing 2-0, 3-0 is not a progress.
Some ridiculous comments from one poster mostly. I agree with Hargreaves the highlights he made on BT before Ragnick came in, this United team has enough quality to challenge when a proper manager is in charge. Ragnick is not renowned for his credentials at first team level, he is far more proficient when it comes to influencing the philosophy within the hierarchy of clubs. I don't think we will see his best work until he phases into that position.
Arsenal's current run seems determined by good form more so than class it will take more consistency before the club can be considered a genuine top four team for me. I have absolutely no bias against the London lot either, I have stated previously having preferred Arteta to Ole on the basis of his style of leadership.
I know Solskjaer probably has a stronger CV on the basis of league performances but I always felt with Ole he was never building towards anything but rather just coasting not making a difference with his ideas. Ole seemingly lacked vision and its clearly demonstrated with the team being strengthened and performances getting worse he had no direction for the team.
The reality for both Ole and Arteta is they are in this league era where there are top quality managers across the board making things more challenging. Conte, Pep, Klopp and Tuchel they are in their own categories respectfully all others fall significantly short. Then there's promising individuals in the form of the Potter's and I guess even Gerrard / Viera has the potential to throw their hat into the mix.
Arsenal's current run seems determined by good form more so than class it will take more consistency before the club can be considered a genuine top four team for me. I have absolutely no bias against the London lot either, I have stated previously having preferred Arteta to Ole on the basis of his style of leadership.
I know Solskjaer probably has a stronger CV on the basis of league performances but I always felt with Ole he was never building towards anything but rather just coasting not making a difference with his ideas. Ole seemingly lacked vision and its clearly demonstrated with the team being strengthened and performances getting worse he had no direction for the team.
The reality for both Ole and Arteta is they are in this league era where there are top quality managers across the board making things more challenging. Conte, Pep, Klopp and Tuchel they are in their own categories respectfully all others fall significantly short. Then there's promising individuals in the form of the Potter's and I guess even Gerrard / Viera has the potential to throw their hat into the mix.
City game isn’t important, being a flat track bully is fine at this moment if it gets them top 4. They’re becoming a team that wins the game they’re expected to, which if they keep that up will guarantee them CL football.
Tottenham have won their last 4 at home to City. Palace reguarly get results against them.
The idea that it doesn't matter that Arsenal keep losing to these teams just screams getting the excuses in for Arteta early.
It doesn’t matter, if Arsenal get top 4 come the end of the season no one is gonna look back and say well they lost at home to city (except some of the weirdos in this thread).
United drew with Newcastle yesterday, Chelsea have dropped points to Wolves, Everton, West Ham and Burnley in the last month. These are the games that matter to Arsenal. If they get spanked by Liverpool and City but beat the fodder, they’ll get top 4.
You have to remember, no one this summer predicted Arsenal getting top 4, now that they’re on a good run to turn around and say if they lose to City all their progress is gone is silly.
Part of the reason they turned against Wenger was because they kept getting stuffed against anyone half decent, nearly 4 years on and it's happening again.
I assume for a club the size of Arsenal the plan is to eventually get back into the title mix, normalizing defeats against City, Liverpool and even us as free hits is not a habit that will be easy to break when they actually need to start getting points in these games.
I feel that “The Big Games
“ are both over and under-hyped.
Unless a game is with your direct rivals for that season (in our case United / Spurs / West Ham) the result is no more important to our final league position than games against lower teams. You don’t get more points for beating City than Norwich.
However - you also don’t get less points. So it makes no sense to write off our games against City as a “free hit” when the difference between us finishing 8th and 4th last season was… two wins.
“ are both over and under-hyped.Unless a game is with your direct rivals for that season (in our case United / Spurs / West Ham) the result is no more important to our final league position than games against lower teams. You don’t get more points for beating City than Norwich.
However - you also don’t get less points. So it makes no sense to write off our games against City as a “free hit” when the difference between us finishing 8th and 4th last season was… two wins.
That is the plan for sure, but comparing to Spurs is difficult. Spurs get points from those games because they are heavily set up to counter. They defend well and solid and break, which is what gets them points vs big teams.
Actually, when Arteta first came to Arsenal, we did a very similar thing, and this did get us results vs Chelsea, City etc when we played 5 atb.
But now he is trying to set the blueprint of a 4-2-3-1 of sorts, and not changing it depending on the team. This will mean there's times where we will get stuffed by City and Liverpool. The only way that will change is with more experience from the younger players on how to deal with those games, and also more signings to help bring the overall quality up. Laca and Xhaka both dissapear too often against big sides, and both need to be upgraded for a chance of doing that.
The alternative would be to flip flop between formations in an attempt to get something from those games but I don't think Arteta wants to go to that route, I think he wants to drill this system home, and hope any loses that come from it are lessons to the younger guys.
Edit: I'm on a 5 post limit so this is me for today, so have a good day all!
For the first part, the targets are obviously very different. If you offered every Arsenal supporter top 4 at the end of the season, you’d probably get every single one saying yes, right? Emery and Arteta were starting from very different points to Wenger in his final years. They have to be judged by different metrics, it’s not a one to one comparison.
For the second part, the name of the club doesn’t matter. Being called Arsenal isn’t going to magically get you points. Arsenal are significantly outspent on wages by four other sides. Eventually they’re going to have to challenge, but absolutely no one expected it of them this season. If they get top four, it’ll have been a good season for them, everything else is
just noise.
This part isn’t directed at you, but now that they’re in the mix for top four, to come out and say if they don’t get four points from City and Liverpool they’re back to square one is clearly asinine, and an obvious shifting of the goalposts. When you’ve spent years mocking a manager and talking about the damage he’s doing, it’s hard to take a step back and admit he’s doing a better job than you thought he would.