Didnt seem outdated in 15/16 when we finished second did it? After years of over performing he finally finished where we belonged according to our spending which was 5th/6th. Why do you think we haven’t finished higher since then? Money talks.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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Didnt seem outdated in 15/16 when we finished second did it? After years of over performing he finally finished where we belonged according to our spending which was 5th/6th. Why do you think we haven’t finished higher since then? Money talks.
What did I just say? He did excellently under the financial restrictions he was under, when they were loosened he was hesitant about spending due to what he thought were massively overinflated transfer fees. When he did decide to spend (£250m) he did so overall pretty poorly. If I was an Arsenal board member or supporter I would still have wanted him, but his position became untenable.
Yeah Aubameyang was brilliant that year, but it was a very poor squad in desperate need of an overhaul. Emery is a good manager but it wasn’t that surprising when towards the end of his first season things went into a tailspin and never recovered. You can’t put a team like that out, especially the back line, and expect anything. It’s why when Arteta was hired, it was obviously done so with the knowledge he would have time to implement a rebuild. It’s why the board showed such patience.
As per Fabregas Wenger's instruction to the team is to let the players express themselves and he received no instructions from the manager if I remember correctly. It may be a bit exaggerate but I do agree with Fabregas from what I have seen in Wenger's later year. We can agree to disagree. The games have moved on it is much more tactical nowadays.
Net spend was less than half of that 250m you are claim. Again as i said nothing in the context of the top 4. Wenger didn’t underperform. He just stopped over performing.
I can imagine that being the case. His football was less effective towards the end and I imagine part of that was the influx of micromanagement in all facets of the game. Even more so when it came to the off the ball stuff.
I said he spent £250m, I never mentioned net spend, that’s just something you’ve invented to argue against. The same way that back in October you said if he got top 5 you’d admit he was doing a good job but now it’s the bare minimum.
I really don't understand why people keep going on about Wenger.
Wenger isn't some never aging man. At some point he needed replacing, and that point was coming soon. Yes, there is a chance he could have got us into the top 4 with more spending, but we will never know, especially as his style was never to go out and spend £50m on players really bar the odd exception and his last year or two.
Wenger got us into the top 4 over and over, when the competition wasn't really that high. The level of the league in general was very poor for a long time while he was in charge, but he still did great things with what he had at his disposal. Saying that Arsenal fans were mad when Wenger got top 4, but now are begging for it, is such a basic and pointless argument. The top 4 now is filled with teams spending money, in fact the top 8 is. Look at Aston Villa recently, they spent more money than most teams and can barely get into the top half.
We needed a rebuild at some point, and United showed that even after winning the league it still takes a lot to replace a clubs structure. We were nowhere near that level when Wenger left, so it takes even more for us to do it.
If people want to think Arteta has done a bad job, then fair enough that's upto them. For me, he's won some silverware, over the past 12 months he's shown good consistency, and he has completely turned our squad around and is installing a style of play and some identity back to the club. His bad points are he did have a very bad 5 month spell, which I have seen he's taken some lessons from and is improving day by day with. And I was also very dubious about our attacking style and creation, but that seems to have improved lately (but we will see if this lasts or not).
Wenger isn't some never aging man. At some point he needed replacing, and that point was coming soon. Yes, there is a chance he could have got us into the top 4 with more spending, but we will never know, especially as his style was never to go out and spend £50m on players really bar the odd exception and his last year or two.
Wenger got us into the top 4 over and over, when the competition wasn't really that high. The level of the league in general was very poor for a long time while he was in charge, but he still did great things with what he had at his disposal. Saying that Arsenal fans were mad when Wenger got top 4, but now are begging for it, is such a basic and pointless argument. The top 4 now is filled with teams spending money, in fact the top 8 is. Look at Aston Villa recently, they spent more money than most teams and can barely get into the top half.
We needed a rebuild at some point, and United showed that even after winning the league it still takes a lot to replace a clubs structure. We were nowhere near that level when Wenger left, so it takes even more for us to do it.
If people want to think Arteta has done a bad job, then fair enough that's upto them. For me, he's won some silverware, over the past 12 months he's shown good consistency, and he has completely turned our squad around and is installing a style of play and some identity back to the club. His bad points are he did have a very bad 5 month spell, which I have seen he's taken some lessons from and is improving day by day with. And I was also very dubious about our attacking style and creation, but that seems to have improved lately (but we will see if this lasts or not).
I know what you said. I’m telling you that investment in a squad has to take into consideration players going as well as coming. Wenger was always replacing players over instead of strengthening the team over the years which is why it was hard to improve. I would think it was common sense and not a new invention.
5th place is the minimum good job or not.
Arteta's man management skill is poor. He has issue with so many players. I can't imagine that will happen on Ancelotti.
Fair enough. My point was that he’d lost his edge when it came to squad building, bringing in some players for big money who’d contribute nothing to the managers that came after. There were some hits but misses too (your Mustafis). The players he had to replace in his final years weren’t of the same caliber of the ones he lost before (Nasri, Fabregas, RVP). But point taken, he was losing players at the same time.
Let me just add a bit of context to this by saying I’m a diehard Wenger fan so my views may be somewhat biased. You are right of course on your points but even then at his worst Wenger still managed 5th/6th place finishes with an FA Cup thrown in. Hardly the meltdown some would suggest given the fact that his budget was the 5th biggest at the time.
Look at the two squads: (19/20) (bold have left and underlined are new signings/academy players/loan back)
19/20 - 21/22
Leno - Ramsdale
Bellerin - Tomiyasu
Sokratis - White
Luiz - Gabriel
Tierney - Tierney
Torreira - Partey
Xhaka - Xhaka
Ozil - Odegaard
Pepe - Saka
Laca - Laca
Auba - Martinelli
Martinez - Leno
Macey - Okonkwo
Chambers - Chambers
Holding - Holding
Mustafi - Mari
Kolasinac - Tavares
Ceballos - Elneny
AMN - AMN
Willock - Sambi
Guendouzi - Patino
Saka - Pepe
Nelson - Auba
Nketiah - Nketiah
Martinelli - ESR
It's pretty cluttered so not the easiest reading, but like for like, there's 18 changes there in a 25 man squad in terms of like for like, which over a 2 year period is huge. The fact that he's been able to restructure the squad massively, whilst winning silverware, whilst remaining relatively competitive, to me is a decent job. The true test is if he can close this season with European football. Before the season, 6th was the target because United and Spurs both seemed stronger in the shorter term on paper, but I think if we get a signing or two correct in January, we could push for higher (top 4 and a domestic final).
19/20 - 21/22
Leno - Ramsdale
Bellerin - Tomiyasu
Sokratis - White
Luiz - Gabriel
Tierney - Tierney
Torreira - Partey
Xhaka - Xhaka
Ozil - Odegaard
Pepe - Saka
Laca - Laca
Auba - Martinelli
Martinez - Leno
Macey - Okonkwo
Chambers - Chambers
Holding - Holding
Mustafi - Mari
Kolasinac - Tavares
Ceballos - Elneny
AMN - AMN
Willock - Sambi
Guendouzi - Patino
Saka - Pepe
Nelson - Auba
Nketiah - Nketiah
Martinelli - ESR
It's pretty cluttered so not the easiest reading, but like for like, there's 18 changes there in a 25 man squad in terms of like for like, which over a 2 year period is huge. The fact that he's been able to restructure the squad massively, whilst winning silverware, whilst remaining relatively competitive, to me is a decent job. The true test is if he can close this season with European football. Before the season, 6th was the target because United and Spurs both seemed stronger in the shorter term on paper, but I think if we get a signing or two correct in January, we could push for higher (top 4 and a domestic final).
6th place is the target. 5th is great for European football next season. 4th place we hit the jack pot!
Yh actually i'll add this to my negatives list as I think he could improve a bit here.
But saying that, the players he's fallen out with:
Guendouzi
'Saliba'
Ozil
Auba
Unless i'm missing someone that's it. I think Guendouzi is fair enough to be honest, multiple coaches have said his attitude isn't good enough, and it seems that Arteta gave him chances to do so something about it and he said no. Ozil, I think there's much more behind the scenes which we won't find out about, and I doubt it was all Arteta. Auba, I think he expects more from his captain and again gave him chances to fix it and he didn't.
Saliba, I really don't buy anything the media say on this one. I think he just purely wasn't ready. I've watched games of Salibas since he's been out on loan each year and I can see why. He's very good at some things, but also rash in others. Having a Saliba - Gabriel partnership just wouldn't have worked at the time, both were too inexperienced and new to the PL, it would have been a disaster. They did mess up not loaning him out for 6 months last season/the Europa League squad, but apart from that I have no issues with how we are developing him on loan. Same goes for Martinelli, many thought Arteta turned on him, but you can tell Martinelli has come back a lot more robust than before. Before I was worried everytime Martinelli got tackled he was injuried. He doesn't seem to have that seem feeling, and also he seems to have gained some pace back after his injury.
I get where you’re coming from, and yeah I can agree with what you’re saying regarding Wenger’s placements, I’m probably holding him to unfair levels due it being Wenger and the levels he’s achieved. It was a real shame when he left the league.
Good post lining it all out. I do think his squad overhaul work is the brightest part of his tenure. Of course there’s a long way to go, but I like the ages he targets.
I'm glad you have only 5 posts a day, blasphemer.
Ha I love Wenger don't get me wrong, I have a lot of time for him and he did some amazing things. But I just think anyone who says he could be doing better now than Arteta, it's not that easy. There's a chance that is true, but he is also 72 years old and was in a very stressful job for a long time. There's no way to know and eventually he needed replacement, and whenever that would have been would have been a difficult period.
Also I know my posts are long, but that's because I have 5 so try to make use of them.
It is true that Wenger wasn't backed by the ownership to the same degree that Arteta is now. But the fanbase and BoD had to learn the hard way in the ensuing years that they could no longer compete to nearly the same degree without investment keeping pace--Wenger really was a victim of his own success, but also the rise of oil clubs and spending generally. With the increasing competitiveness via spending, taking a long-term approach now with a youth/re-build and willingness to tolerate some volatility in results with the manager is the best approach, especially when the majority of your competition is doing the opposite. We cannot beat City, Chelsea, and United at the spending game and short-term results for managers, e.g. I think THFC does themselves a disservice w their manager turnover, e.g. getting rid of Pochettino was a terrible and expensive decision IMHO. There is a limit to patience, but everyone that knows Arteta very well, including two of the best managers in the sport, have always backed him to become a great manager. Clearly they see something special. Finishing 4-6 this year is what should be expected. Maybe some unluckiness and taking the youthful approach might see a 7-8 finish, but you don't give up on the long-term project just as it is taking shape. This is the hardest part of the ride, strap in and lets see it through. I do think Liverpool will also take a similar approach once their current overperforming cycle inevitably concludes, unless their ownership changes philosophy and/or sells to a less rational investor.
Maybe not…but are they good enough?
Shaw was top class last year, ditto with Maguire. AWB and McT have scope for improvement - whether they are able to take that step is yet to be seen (and in either case, I wouldnt mind them on the bench atleast), and Fred is good enough to at least be on the bench for us.
In terms of stature, a side isn't just made of WC players and deadwood. Most of the players actually fall in the 3rd category
Oh to have a time machine to send that post back to the last few years of the Wenger reign to show the “Wenger out” gooners what the future holds…
Oh to have some decent posters like Gillespie and Peter Storey…or Davo or Plechazunga…
I think we will have to agree to differ - I see no merit in any of the players mentioned above other than being vastly overrated
Oh to have a time machine blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Exactly.
If u ignore the investment in Leicester, Aston Villa, Everton, and recently Newcastle and think Arsenal can get top 4 easily then so be it. Man Utd has been invested heavily in player recruitment every summer and top 4 is not guaranteed either.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. A player having a bad season doesn't make him a deadwood, unless he's on the end of his career. It does put him on the list where you wait and see what happens next - does he get back to their previous best or stay where they are.
We still have a lot of dead wood to shift, with the likes of El Neny, Soares, Mari, Kola and Chambers at the club.
We will need to move on those five, plus Nketiah, Mavraponis, Torreia, Bellerin, Nelson (shame), Guendouzi (shame). Most of which are out of loan. I think PEA and/or Laca need to move on too. We need to replace Xhaka too.
We can afford to ship off Mari (laughable) and Chambers (average), and bring Saliba back. A group of four CBs in Gabriel, White, Saliba and Holding is decent enough and has room to grow. But losing all three striker options could be really risky, though it looks like it's going to happen.
But our standards were dropped by Wenger. Why would anyone deny that?
When he couldn't keep us in the top 4 anymore, he basically said he's always had us in the top 4 for a long time and that we should be grateful for that. Then he said we should be thankful we haven't been relegated. What kind of manager speaks like that? I'll tell you which one: a manager who feels he has a God-given right to remain in charge of Arsenal forever, and should not be questioned.
No matter what he's done for us early in his managerial stint, it doesn't give him the luxury to tank the club. I've remained consistent in his last 5 seasons that by the time he leaves us, we will be outside of the top 4 and will struggle to get back in. And I was right, and this is his legacy.
All those Wenger cultists were literally laughing at me for suggesting that we should fire Wenger and hire Klopp. I was suspended from the Arsenal forum for even making the suggestion that we should get rid of Wenger. Who's laughing now? It's not Arsenal. It's Liverpool.
You can't cherry pick his legacy. If he's going to take the credit for what Arsenal achieved when he came to the club, he absolutely must take responsibility for how he left the club: a complete & utter mess. And we're still trying to sort it out.
And as for, oh he wasn't given the resources blah blah blah, give me a break. He lost a title fight to Leicester. Do I need to say anything more? He drew with Atletico Madrid at home, despite leading 1-0 and with Atletico down to 10 men for nearly the entire match. Remember his pathetic attempt to get to the Europa league final? Something Emery managed to do in his first season?
Wenger was completely finished.
I think the job at Arsenal is easier.
The fans don't believe that the club is bigger than they are anymore and can appreciate a squad building for what it is.
If he can get a top 4-6 that's a good benefit for an improved young squad.
The fans don't believe that the club is bigger than they are anymore and can appreciate a squad building for what it is.
If he can get a top 4-6 that's a good benefit for an improved young squad.
Mou didn't rate him, and neither did your current manager. Your manager said Shaw is not Man Utd quality before, and he dropped him from the starting lineup right away.
Arteta has the Ole trajectory about him, he’s putting together a motivated squad.
Think he’ll finish top 4 this season.
Think he’ll finish top 4 this season.
They're doing well atm but they always seem to fall away around Feb/March time when the pressure is on. Not being in europe has helped them but I dont think they'll make the top 4
And?
RR said we need to upgrade LB before he had that season, and he's not starting as he's out of form. I'd probably wait a bit before calling him deadwood. If every out of form player is getting called a deadwood, I'm pretty sure Spurs' 150m asset is a deadwood as well.
The manager with the 5th/6th highest budget finished 5th/6th in his last 2 seasons. In what world is that considered to be a failure? As we have seen since then it’s incredibly hard to do what he had been doing for years and years.
It’s not like his successors have done much better either. Our target now is to finish in the Europa! And how much have we spent since Wenger? To go from 6th to 8th? What divine right did Arsenal have to be a top 4 team to begin with?
Lost a title fight to Leicester and what about all the other clubs? Still finished above them lot. What does that say about our consistency under Wenger? Imagine 6th place is an achievement now! People who wanted Wenger out and are happy with 6th place should dream we were still as good as we were in 15/16.
There is absolutely no denying that our standards have dropped over the last few years.
What we are doing now is trying to build with a young and talented core, and aim to push back into CL spots over the next two seasons. I'm excited to think about what a young core of - Saka, ESR, Martinelli, Ødegaard, Patino, Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel, KT, Ramsdale and Saliba can possibly achieve in the future.
But Wenger was able to build with a young and talented core (Ramsey, Walcott, Wilshere, etc) whilst still maintaining our CL status. We are not close a to that at this point.
What we are doing now is trying to build with a young and talented core, and aim to push back into CL spots over the next two seasons. I'm excited to think about what a young core of - Saka, ESR, Martinelli, Ødegaard, Patino, Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel, KT, Ramsdale and Saliba can possibly achieve in the future.
But Wenger was able to build with a young and talented core (Ramsey, Walcott, Wilshere, etc) whilst still maintaining our CL status. We are not close a to that at this point.
4th highest, i'm pretty sure
Don't let United's continued banter era fool you. It isn't that hard to finish top 4 when you have a top 4 budget. The problem for arsenal is that the end of the wenger era saw liverpool leapfrog you in that regard. Now it's hard, because you now have 5 richer clubs ahead of you
Consistently being the 3rd/4th richest club in the league
Yes, and they sacked their managers for it
The type of manager employed by Kroenke, the sort of manager who achieved the results he did on the crumbs Kroenke left the club. Wenger relied a lot on personal relationships with other clubs to make deals and identify potential transfers, eventually that tank runs dry. I'm not surprised you were suspended by the Arsenal forum, you're the worst type of supporter, let alone the worst Arsenal has. The Ungrateful Gooner who can't shut up about how they knew better. The type who is very good at painting white bedsheets.
To me it seems like Shaw overperformed for one season and then back to his normal level. No one will buy him as he is on high wage so wait and see is the only approach anyway. I didn't and wouldn't call any player deadwood but he may not be man Utd quality.
He was more than decent in the season before that as well. It's just that the front 4 were comfortably better than him then. But, many of us were seeing the improvement in the game even in that season.
Irrespective, there's a huge difference between being not good enough to be a regular starter and being a deadwood. So, even at worst, you relegate Shaw from starter to bench player not to deadwood.