You were 8th when Emery was fired and finished 8th under Arteta.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
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You were 8th when Emery was fired and finished 8th under Arteta.
Arsenal was a real mess… Rebuilding takes time when a club “sleeps in class to long. Today it seems like Arteta have done much right. They are heading in the right direction with a very young and talented squad. They’ve played quite entertaining football lately. They should definitely be among top-6, but I don’t think they are ready to break into top-4, on behalf of United, this season.
Edit: Maybe not on behalf of United
What’s going on in Newcastle
Edit: Maybe not on behalf of United
What’s going on in Newcastle
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10th place when Arteta was hired.
Great post
Not true, well purposefully misleading anyway. Yo u know full well that Arteta didn’t take over immediately
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What is purposely misleading is to use a caretaker's track record to pretend Arsenal were in a worse state than they actually were.
Because the comment you replied to was specifically about when Arteta took over. What you said had feck all to do with the comment. I know you know about the caretakers stint because I corrected you about it a month ago
Wait, what?
Surely when judging Arteta the relevant fact is where Arsenal were when Arteta took over.
Yes. We are talking about where Arsenal were as a club. There is no single, 'objective' answer to that question.
Me and others are saying that long-term metrics such as "Arsenal's league placement in the previous season" or "Arsenal's league placement over the previous 3 seasons" are a good answer to 'where Arsenal were as a club'. Someone else is saying that an instantaneous metric such as "Arsenal's league position the minute Arteta was hired" is an appropriate metric.
I disagree that it is appropriate metric because instantaneous metrics are incredibly volatile. For example, if I used an instantaneous metric, I could argue that Arsenal, as a club, were a relegation-level team on the 28th of August. That is, objectively, true: they were 20th on the table. Does that mean Arteta has turned a relegation-level team into a top 4 contender?
Except the comment you replied to was strictly talking about Pogue’s finishing 8th twice comment. He pointed out that in the season he took over, the club was 10th and Arteta’s points haul was ok.
You know all this
You know all this
So are we saying Ole didn't do a good job in the first couple of seasons because Mourinho finished 2nd at Man Utd the season before?
It was widely argued that Ole should not have been given the permanent manager job in his first half-season, given that they ended up finishing 6th. There was no clear consensus that he'd done a good job.
The next season he finished 3rd and the next one he finished 2nd and that is when people were more confident in saying he was doing a good job.
All of that is consistent with what I've said.
Look, if you want to believe that finishing 8th rocks because the team was in 12th place for two seconds, you can. I'm glad that works for you. Maybe there's a lesson there for the rest of us about finding joy in life so easily.
Can't believe anyone said it rocked finishing 8th. Nearly everyone said he has been lucky to keep his job at times. But the club needed a complete reboot & most are glad that it finally seems to be happening.
My lesson for you would be to check your house for lead paint
The penalty kick has won trophies all over the world. Why should it not count for Arteta and Arsenal?
You do realise that we can read what was being discussed, right?
That’s your “instantaneous metric”. The rather obvious point being made is that if we’re going to use starting league position as a data point (your data point - I might add) to analyse Arteta’s performance it makes sense to use Arsenal’s league position when Arteta started. You know, as opposed to when Ljungberg started his six game Caretaker stint where he only won one game.
Arteta was manager when Arsenal plunged to the bottom so that analogy makes no sense. But when he took over from Ljungberg they were 10th and finished 8th.
He has done a good job with cleaning up the ageing and high wage squad replacing them with British core players. It's looking like we will replace Auba,Xhaka and Lacazette over the summer which will be good for club on a longer run. The squad he inherited was a mess and he has struggled a lot, not saying he is perfect but he has done an ok job for steadying the ship.
Xhaka out of Arsenal, what a glorious day that will be.
I think he plays an important role for Arteta's system. I just don't see Arteta will sell him unless Xhaka wants out. I hope Lacazette will renew his contract too so he can give us option up front. His link up play is very good. Hopefully the club can agree a 2 year deal with him, but I believe Lacazette is looking for a longer deal else where.
Arteta is doing a wonderful job and the way he turned things around has to be worth some praise regardless of if they somehow don’t make it into Europa league. I don’t know why some poster keep insisting that they know more than me. I m sure they are worried about the recent form showed by Arsenal. This is even an incomplete Arsenal team. If they get their transfer right next season, they could be fighting for a place in the top four.
If Arsenal somehow don't make it into the Europa League this season then by definition he will not have turned anything around.
My metric to judge Arteta is not their position when Emery was fired. It is Arsenal's performance in previous seasons, their track record, and their expectations as a club. If I judged Arteta by Emery's final position, I'd be doing him a favor.
It doesn't make sense to use their league position when Arteta started or when Emery was fired. Nobody believed that Arsenal were, on underlying quality, the 8th or 10th or 12th best team in the Premier League when Arteta was appointed. That's why they fired the manager.
The fundamental claim here is, "Arsenal were in really bad shape." The evidence being offered is "they were 11th or 12th for a few weeks." That is weak evidence for the claim. Football teams have periods of bad form; they are not necessarily a reflection of their underlying quality. A manager hired mid-season is almost certainly taking over a period after a period of bad form. If you judge the manager based on where the team where when they took over (or whereabouts), you are very likely to be using outliers as your reference point.
Nobody actually judges managers this way. Two years into Xavi's stint as manager of Barcelona, 'league placement when he was hired' isn't going to be anywhere on your mind. You're going to judge him based on the standards of your club, previous league finishes under other managers, and take context into account.
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Will be surprised if they don't make it to EL this season tbf. Leicester have been atrocious, WHU are not in the best of form and even though I expect United and Spurs to finish above Arsenal, for Arsenal to finish below WHU (who are the only other realistic contender for top 6), it would require Arsenal to go into a lower half team form here on
They have EL qualification in the bag. They've improved considerably from last season.
You don’t rate Arteta, I get it. Time will tell if you’re proven right or not. However, from my perspective, there’s currently much to be positive about. The team is playing consistently with much energy and our players are generally young with much room for further improvement. So, I’m optimistic that we will certainly finish in the top 6 and who knows, maybe even better than that. The club is also looking to strengthen the team.
I have no idea whether Rangnick will turn your current squad into world beaters but based upon their performances to date, I doubt it.
Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Fred, McTominey and Martial are not good enough. Both Rashford and Greenwood seem to have lost confidence not getting enough playing time up against a 34 and a 36 year old who’ve seen better days.
In terms of where you are, I’d say you’re 2 years behind Arsenal.
Id say they're where we were a decade ago. No trophies and all that false hope disappearing by Christmas. The only difference being their football is shite.
At least the game in hand and we will be above you excuse isn’t possible anymore.
The biggest self delusion in football is the belief you’ll win your games in hand…
Their football is woeful. Their build up is slow and ponderous allowing teams to get back into a good defensive shape. Ronaldo and Cavani don’t have the legs to maintain energy for 90 minutes. Fernandes has been overawed by Ronaldo and is not the player he was last year. Arsenal‘s young team move the ball at speed with often one touch passing that allows them to get behind teams. Utd yesterday against Newcastle seemed by comparison a team of old timers.
And statements like that are why folk have a go at giddy Arsenal fans.
Tbf it wasn't delusion when Ferguson was manager. But yeah assuming we'll win 3 games in hand these days is pure lunacy.
Carrick's United would have beat Newcastle comfortably yesterday..
Xhaka is very limited, if Arsenal have CL level ambition then will move him over the summer. Laca is not extending his contract, also he isn't a 20 goal a season striker which Arsenal needs desperately.
Striker & CM are two areas Arsenal need upgrades to challenge consistently for top 4.
When Arteta took over, Arsenal were 11th in the table on 23 points, 18 games into the season, so halfway. I have no idea why you're ignoring the 6 games Freddie was in charge for, considering we only got 6 points in that time which hindered Artetas start a decent amount, but you do you. For the remaining 18 games that season (half the season so a reasonable sample, he got 33 points), 1 less than Chelsea who finished 4th. 33 points for his first season in charge was a reasonable amount, I wouldn't really expect anymore, and to top it off, he won the FA cup beating some big sides along the way. So, to me that is a successful start.
He then had a very poor say 5 months at the start of his second season, which i'll happily admit had many people criticising him including myself, where he tried to force Willian into the side, and we lacked any creativity at all in the team. Then for the Chelsea game he scrapped the 5atb formation and went with a number 10. Ever since that game against Chelsea, for the past 12 months he's had a very good record, exceeding expectations.
So in general, he's had a poor 5 months, and also the loss to Villarreal was dissapointing. But, he's had a successful 18 months and a cup win in and around that, so overall i'd say he's doing just fine as manager and he's learning from his mistakes, which is something I want to see as time goes on. No Arsenal fan should have expected him to come in and just solve everything. Our squad wasn't in good enough shape for it, and we had no real style of play or identity. He was always going to have bad periods, and may well have some more in the future. But, in general he's been more positive than negative.
Now if you want to say he finished 8th twice so he's rubbish, that's upto you, but it's such a completely basic way of looking at it. If you want to say his second season he was poor for finishing 8th, then I can understand that for sure. But to say his first season was poor is stupid, because it just wasn't. How you can say he finished 8th and that's all his fault when he got almost 33% more points in his period than the first half of the season is just illogical.
The standards of our club have to adapt. We went from losing Wenger who was there for a huge time, to having to completely rebuild the structure of the club. This was never going to magically happen overnight. It took United years before they became a respectable name again after SAF. It's taken us 2 years to get into a position where maybe we can get into the CL again. We should be aiming to be a CL club, so to me we are right on track with it. You are the one who really seems to be ignoring context here.
This was the squad for Artetas first game in charge: The bold have all left or are on the way out. 6 players out of 18 remain. He's done a complete rebuild of the squad in 2 seasons, on top of trying to get the clubs identity back and stay competitive in the league. Saying all this, I want us to finish in the top 6 this season at the least and remain competitive for the top 4 till the end of the season. Anything less, and I will be dissapointed, but so far so good.
Leno
AMN - Luiz - Sokratis - Saka
Torreira - Xhaka
Nelson - Ozil - Auba
Laca
Martinez
Mustafi
Mavrapanos
Guendouzi
Willock
ESR
Pepe
I would love to replace Xhaka with Kalvin Phillips and I’d snap up Greenwood if he can’t get game time at OT
You can't afford him. Maybe Sam Greenwood, you can.