agreed....and regardless of whether it was a yellow or not...Herrera should have just run with Hazard rather than sticking his leg out after the ref had just lectured Utd players on targeting Hazard
Michael Oliver
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I agree. And good post, well done for seeing past the emotion. Oliver had a long hard chat with the team captain to cut it out and stop trying his patience. Herrera is an intelligent player who knows when to commit snidey fouls, he's actually very good at it. To completely lose the reading of the situation, and the ref's mental state in those seconds (he's human too), was Herrera's fault. He cost Utd the game.
Shame as I really wanted to see Utd in the semis.
Oliver as well as being a bit over zealous with his card v Herrara also missed the stamp on Hazard by Rojo......possible retrospective red and 3 game ban
Which were the 4 games (and 3 penalties) he's managed us this season?
But that doesn't follow the actual rules of football.
You can't book a player for what his teammates are doing.
He's not biased, he's just not very good.
Get out of here
what Herrera did was stupid but you sound like you agree that he shoudl have been sent off for the disrespectIt really shouldn't be asking too much of the ref to expect him to judge incidents on their own merits. That was never a yellow card.
And Hazard was targetted from the kick off.
Why are posters certain he warned Smalling about the team fouling Hazard? Im pretty sure he pointed out Jones fouls on him.
This excuse seems to be accepted as fact. It seems strange Smalling didn't seem to act on it
This excuse seems to be accepted as fact. It seems strange Smalling didn't seem to act on it
For the love of god please can people stop citing the talking to with smalling prior to the red as some sort of justification for it.
It's a truly absurd and downright stupid thing to say. You can't book a player for persistent fouling when the fouling is from a collection of players.
It's just a mental thing to say! By the same logic should Herrera not have been red carded had the foul not been on hazard. I can't believe people that say it are actually smart enough to be alive.
Oliver fecked up. His adrenaline was flowing and yet again he failed to take a breath and think. It was terrible refereeing.
It's a truly absurd and downright stupid thing to say. You can't book a player for persistent fouling when the fouling is from a collection of players.
It's just a mental thing to say! By the same logic should Herrera not have been red carded had the foul not been on hazard. I can't believe people that say it are actually smart enough to be alive.
Oliver fecked up. His adrenaline was flowing and yet again he failed to take a breath and think. It was terrible refereeing.
Stupid tramline cnut.
The incident was clear cut. Warnng issued. Any testing of that warning and someone's getting carded. Don't test the warning, at least for a few minutes, then we'll see how the rest of the game pans out.
Even if he said that to Smalling it's against the rules.
Was there a warning about that?
I agree but posters seem to have given the ref a huge benefit of the doubt here.
The more I look at it the more I think Oliver sees it as a deliberate trip and a second yellow.
This persistant fouling lark doesn't wash with me
Exactly. Are people really saying that had Herrera marginally clipped (if that) Willian it wouldn't have been a yellow, but it was a yellow because it was against Hazard? So the same attempt at a tackle can be judged completely differently? That's madness.
Michael Oliver just likes deciding United cup ties. Di Maria got sent off for touching him in the F.A. Cup at this stage. Mourinho was right to point out how 'unlucky' a referee he's been for us this year.
The warning was for Phil Jones, as evidence by the fact that it was he and Smalling, the captain, who were being addressed by Oliver.
Oliver bowed to the pressure of the crowd.
If Herrera makes that challenge on anybody but Hazard I dont think hes booked. Which is pretty poor stuff.
But what is herrera supposed to do, try and not challenge Hazard?
His first booking, everybody says its an obvious yellow, but where is Herrera meant to go? He cant get out the way, and why should he have to get out the way. Its a foul, but imo not a yellow.
There were worse challenges in the second half which he let slide. Its just bizarre stuff from him time and time again.
If Herrera makes that challenge on anybody but Hazard I dont think hes booked. Which is pretty poor stuff.
But what is herrera supposed to do, try and not challenge Hazard?
His first booking, everybody says its an obvious yellow, but where is Herrera meant to go? He cant get out the way, and why should he have to get out the way. Its a foul, but imo not a yellow.
There were worse challenges in the second half which he let slide. Its just bizarre stuff from him time and time again.
Generally when a ref talks to the club captain holding up play for a good 60-90 seconds there's some serious bollocking being unloaded. Read the fecking situation. (Not you, the players)
The more I look at it the more it looks like a dive from Hazard. Ander nudged him on the shin and down he went.
Whats the warning? Look at what I'm not booking players for?
So United got beat and it was ALL down to the ref? From what I saw, United started quite well, battling away - maybe a little over zealous. Then De Gea made two absolutely fantastic saves..... so you couldn't really argue that Chelsea didn't deserve to lead at half time.
Rashford had the one opportunity, which he carved out for himself really really well......but apart from that Costa missed two sitters and United didn't get a look in. Not arsed about who won by the way, just commenting on what I saw.
Rashford had the one opportunity, which he carved out for himself really really well......but apart from that Costa missed two sitters and United didn't get a look in. Not arsed about who won by the way, just commenting on what I saw.
I'm asking because I missed the situation.
there is no rule which gives Oiver right to give a yellow card for any little foul for the next player fouling a certain player, I would understand if it was an accumulated one but Herrera was on unjustified yellow which makes it even worse decision, Oliver is just a fecking poor referee, this kind of cnuts should whistle second league and not being nominated for the important games where they like to make big decisions to gain the control of the game, stupid little brat
Indeed. And any referee who decides to brandish a yellow card not on the merits of the foul itself but rather warning a team to stop fouling a specific player shouldn't be a referee.
Why did Chelsea deserve to lead at half-time? Isn't the goalkeeper a player? Isn't his contribution counted somehow? Chelsea had 2 shots on target both of which well saved. Played better, sure. Deserved to lead? No.
Chelsea created more over 90", because they played with 1 man more for 2/3 of it. This is the thread for Michael Oliver, not the match thread. We are debating his performance and crucially the red card. Not how the game shaped up in terms of chances after it.
Not seen a replay of the first yellow, bit just watched back a clip of the second one. To me Herrera is an idiot there. Hazard has turned him and he sticks a lazy leg out and trips him. No where near the ball. Hazard makes the most of it, but when the only defence of the second yellow is that there were worse tackles in the second half, I think that's weak.
I see your point, but the pundits et al are all finding generous ways of saying that the referee's decision was harsh and incorrect. What you're saying is that humans are humans, they make mistakes, and that Herrera should have anticipated that the ref might end up punishing him on the back of someone else's bad challenge due to an emotional heat of the moment feeling.
Wouldn't it have been better for the ref to just book Jones, then not feel the need to book Herrera?
Who said that?
One could justify each incident in isolation warranting a yellow card but to send someone off so early for that combination of fouls just ruined the spectacle. Referees sometimes forget that football is entertainment, the primary objective of the referee is to manage the game and STAY OUT of the limelight. He did not need to make such a harsh call so early on and especially in this game.
It ruined the game for everyone.
It ruined the game for everyone.
Agreed, booking Jones would have probably taken the sting out. Wouldn't be surprised if refs are watching that incident as a big learn.
But yes Herrera is intelligent enough to read situations all over the pitch, he misread this one thinking no way is the ref going to risk looking a fool to book him for a minor foul. But the brinkmanship didn't pay off.
yup...and the fact that Jones was there is not evidence that it was just about him.
When Jose was Chelsea manager he used to moan like a bitch about Hazard not getting enough protection from officials especially from systematic fouling like tonight.
Persistant infringement like targeting a player by a team is also a law breaker
I don't think the Jones tackle was a booking and I don't think the following Herrera tackle was a booking.
Oliver let the situation get out of hand at that moment. I think he thought Jones fouled/blocked Hazard about 30s prior to the actual incidents (played on), which looking at the replay is a stretch. That's why he went a bit OTT for Jones' actual foul and called Smalling over. Herrera made an error of judgement but the bigger mistake was Oliver's, very weak.
Oliver let the situation get out of hand at that moment. I think he thought Jones fouled/blocked Hazard about 30s prior to the actual incidents (played on), which looking at the replay is a stretch. That's why he went a bit OTT for Jones' actual foul and called Smalling over. Herrera made an error of judgement but the bigger mistake was Oliver's, very weak.
Actually you can
2.28.3 PERSISTENT INFRINGEMENT
Persistent infringement occurs when a player repeatedly commits fouls or certain other infringements. It is not necessary for the multiple fouls to be of the same type or all to be direct free kick fouls, but infringements must be among those covered in Law 12 or involve repeated violations of Law 14. In most cases, the referee should warn the player that the pattern has been observed and, upon a subsequent violation, must then issue the caution. If the pattern is quickly and blatantly established, then the warning should be omitted and the referee should take immediate action. In determining whether there is persistent infringement, all fouls are considered, including those to which advantage has been applied.
The referee must also recognize when a single opponent has become the target of fouls by multiple players. As above, upon recognizing the pattern, the referee should clearly indicate that the pattern has been observed and that further fouls against this opponent must cease. If another player commits a foul against the targeted opponent, that player must be cautioned but, in this case, the misconduct should be reported as unsporting behavior, as must any subsequent caution of any further foul against that same targeted opponent. Eventually, the team will get the message.
He's been sent off once before this season with another incorrect decision. Give your head a wobble. Fecking hell.
Also, the non-bookings for Cahill (deliberately hauling down Rashford after slipping) and Pogba (deliberately tripping / pulling back Kante) were really poor calls. Basic refereeing.
20 titles and 3 champions leagues though.
We should also start disallowing goals along with these saves.