Michael Oliver

Mitchell Nicholas said:
I don't think it's weird if the decisions are correct or at least justifiable which i think all three were.
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Probably. But he's also waved away a couple of stonewall penalties for United this season and last too. So there's no consistency. He's not my favorite referee at all. I'm not going to be childish and suggest he's bias. But he needs to make sure he is calling decisions the same way for both teams, because I'm yet to see that.

An example being Hart headbutting him and not even getting a warning. And then sending off di Maria for nudging his back.
 
Carlsen19 said:
He was fine yesterday. It's actually quite embarrassing reading the reaction to every ref's performance after our games. Sure, we've had some shite decisions against us but we've also benefited from some decisions so it's swings and roundabouts really.

As for the Pogba handball and people saying we wouldn't have got that decision if it was us, that is simply not true. You will never see a more blatant penalty.
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Paddy Crerand didn't complain about the decision. If he doesn't complain about a referees decisions that goes against United, the decision was blatant and correct.
 
Carlsen19 said:
He was fine yesterday. It's actually quite embarrassing reading the reaction to every ref's performance after our games. Sure, we've had some shite decisions against us but we've also benefited from some decisions so it's swings and roundabouts really.

As for the Pogba handball and people saying we wouldn't have got that decision if it was us, that is simply not true. You will never see a more blatant penalty.
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Exactly. It was a very clear penalty. I don't necessarily think it was intentional. He was scrambling for position and jumped late. But once your hands are up there and the ball hits them, it's 100% a penalty.
 
Carlsen19 said:
He was fine yesterday. It's actually quite embarrassing reading the reaction to every ref's performance after our games. Sure, we've had some shite decisions against us but we've also benefited from some decisions so it's swings and roundabouts really.

As for the Pogba handball and people saying we wouldn't have got that decision if it was us, that is simply not true. You will never see a more blatant penalty.
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Spot on. Oliver had a decent game and truthfully the only decisions he really got wrong were failing to book Rooney for the Milner challenge and missing Pogba's headlock takedown on Henderson (neither worth more than a yellow). Couple of offside decisions too (Valencia in the build-up to the Utd goal and Rooney incorrectly being called off) but they're on the linesman.

Stunned to see people calling the penalty anything other than blatant. That's as clear a handball in the box as you'll ever see.
 
RexHamilton said:
Exactly. It was a very clear penalty. I don't necessarily think it was intentional. He was scrambling for position and jumped late. But once your hands are up there and the ball hits them, it's 100% a penalty.
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:confused:

So then you think it wasn't necessarily a penalty then?
 
Ady87 said:
It can be unintentional and a penalty, can't it?
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The intention doesn't have to be to handball it. The intention has to be to put your hands in a position where the ball can hit them.

Its ridiculous some people are arguing that wasn't a penalty.
 
Ady87 said:
It can be unintentional and a penalty, can't it?
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No.

By definition the offence is 'deliberate handball'. If you didn't intend to handle it then its not an infringement.

How referees are supposed to tell a players intention in the heat of the moment I don't know, but to the letter of the law as it stands if you don't think Pogba intentionally handled the ball then you don't think it is a penalty.

11101 said:
The intention doesn't have to be to handball it. The intention has to be to put your hands in a position where the ball can hit them.

Its ridiculous some people are arguing that wasn't a penalty.
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Wrong.

There is a load of gubbins talked about 'unnatural' and 'natural' positions, but the laws clearly state that the position of the hand does not necessarily lead to an infringement. It can do, but it doesn't have to. I would argue Pogba's hands were in a completely normal position for someone trying to header the ball; he just fecked up and lost it in the flight.

As I said above, I think this penalty makes it clear that there should be a rule change. Almost everyone thinks that this should have been a penalty, but to the letter of the law as it currently stands then it shouldn't have been.
 
NinjaFletch said:
No.

By definition the offence is 'deliberate handball'. If you didn't intend to handle it then its not an infringement.
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Regarding handball they now ask the referee to consider the proximity of the potential offender to the person last playing the ball, the speed of the ball and importantly whether the offender's arms are in a natural or unnatural position.

So the question of intent is now, did the offender deliberately place his arms in an unnatural position to increase the chances of the ball hitting him?

If the answer to that is yes then it is correct to penalise that player even though it used to be argued that was ball to hand.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Regarding handball they now ask the referee to consider the proximity of the potential offender to the person last playing the ball, the speed of the ball and importantly whether the offender's arms are in a natural or unnatural position.

So the question of intent is now, did the offender deliberately place his arms in an unnatural position to increase the chances of the ball hitting him?

If the answer to that is yes then it is correct to penalise that player even though it used to be argued that was ball to hand.
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Quite. They ask them to consider it as part of a series of criteria (that I might as well just quote below seeing as we're referring to them) which is designed to aid the referees in what is effectively an exercise in mind-reading. But the over-all most important question that the referee asks, and the only one that is ultimately relevant, is did the player handle the ball deliberately or not?

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

  • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

  • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

  • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

  • touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

  • hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
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Clearly its been given because of a combination of 1, 2, and 3, and was given in real-time because Oliver thought he handled it deliberately, but with the benefit of replays I really don't think what Pogba actually does supports that interpretation. In fact, I think he quite clearly loses the ball turns around, sees it again, misses his header and the ball strikes his hand which is in a fairly normal position for someone attempting to head the ball like he did.

For the sake of argument I'd like to introduce another penalty that was given last year (I think), and see what you think. Would you give a penalty for this?

 
NinjaFletch said:
Quite. They ask them to consider it as part of a series of criteria (that I might as well just quote below seeing as we're referring to them) which is designed to aid the referees in what is effectively an exercise in mind-reading. But the over-all most important question that the referee asks, and the only one that is ultimately relevant, is did the player handle the ball deliberately or not?



Clearly its been given because of a combination of 1, 2, and 3, and was given in real-time because Oliver thought he handled it deliberately, but with the benefit of replays I really don't think what Pogba actually does supports that interpretation. In fact, I think he quite clearly loses the ball turns around, sees it again, misses his header and the ball strikes his hand which is in a fairly normal position for someone attempting to head the ball like he did.

For the sake of argument I'd like to introduce another penalty that was given last year (I think), and see what you think. Would you give a penalty for this?

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Yes, I think he pushes his hand at it. (I might want to think that because of the advantage gained - taking the 'it's my choice what I think' approach I suppose)
 
NinjaFletch said:
No.

By definition the offence is 'deliberate handball'. If you didn't intend to handle it then its not an infringement.

How referees are supposed to tell a players intention in the heat of the moment I don't know, but to the letter of the law as it stands if you don't think Pogba intentionally handled the ball then you don't think it is a penalty.



Wrong.

There is a load of gubbins talked about 'unnatural' and 'natural' positions, but the laws clearly state that the position of the hand does not necessarily lead to an infringement. It can do, but it doesn't have to. I would argue Pogba's hands were in a completely normal position for someone trying to header the ball; he just fecked up and lost it in the flight.

As I said above, I think this penalty makes it clear that there should be a rule change. Almost everyone thinks that this should have been a penalty, but to the letter of the law as it currently stands then it shouldn't have been.
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Movement of the hand towards to the ball is included in the definition of deliberate. Referee guidance clarified that it includes if the hand is in an unnatural position and the hand doesn't need to be going directly for the ball.
 
montpelier said:
Yes, I think he pushes his hand at it. (I might want to think that because of the advantage gained - taking the 'it's my choice what I think' approach I suppose)
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Which is what it looks like in slow motion I agree, but at full speed I think it was clear he lost the ball and turned into it as his hand came out to counter balance. Either way, I think that one is a good case in point because you can easily make arguments both ways for it. Ultimately, I think that means the handball rule is too subjective and leaves too much room for interpretation. It needs to be re-written to remove any aspect of 'intention', and I have always liked your suggestion that gaining an advantage should come into it.

11101 said:
Movement of the hand towards to the ball is included in the definition of deliberate. Referee guidance clarified that it includes if the hand is in an unnatural position and the hand doesn't need to be going directly for the ball.
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This is the issue though. It doesn't state that 'movement of the hand towards the ball' means that it is a penalty kick, and it certainly isn't included as part of a definition. Instead it simply states that it is a factor that 'must be taken into consideration' when trying to ascertain whether or not it is deliberate.

The whole section is just far too wooly, and leads to inconsistency and vagaries as each referee will naturally interpret it differently.
 
NinjaFletch said:
This is the issue though. It doesn't state that 'movement of the hand towards the ball' means that it is a penalty kick, and it certainly isn't included as part of a definition. Instead it simply states that it is a factor that 'must be taken into consideration' when trying to ascertain whether or not it is deliberate.

The whole section is just far too wooly, and leads to inconsistency and vagaries as each referee will naturally interpret it differently.
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They won't interpret differently because they have been told how to interpret it. It's not up to each individual referee. That won't change unless FIFA decides to change the entire rule.
 
Donk87 said:
Spot on. Oliver had a decent game and truthfully the only decisions he really got wrong were failing to book Rooney for the Milner challenge and missing Pogba's headlock takedown on Henderson (neither worth more than a yellow). Couple of offside decisions too (Valencia in the build-up to the Utd goal and Rooney incorrectly being called off) but they're on the linesman.

Stunned to see people calling the penalty anything other than blatant. That's as clear a handball in the box as you'll ever see.
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Id risk saying that ref perfomance-wise it was the best game we had this season.
 
11101 said:
They won't interpret differently because they have been told how to interpret it. It's not up to each individual referee. That won't change unless FIFA decides to change the entire rule.
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They can and do. And thats exactly what I'm calling for; IFAB to clarify meaning and simplify the law.

I have no real issue with Oliver's decision (despite what I said about it in the heat of the moment). I just find it interesting how badly the handball law is understood when people use arguments that would mean that it definitely isn't a penalty to argue that it is.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Clearly its been given because of a combination of 1, 2, and 3, and was given in real-time because Oliver thought he handled it deliberately, but with the benefit of replays I really don't think what Pogba actually does supports that interpretation. In fact, I think he quite clearly loses the ball turns around, sees it again, misses his header and the ball strikes his hand which is in a fairly normal position for someone attempting to head the ball like he did.
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I agree. I think the replay shows 100% that his absolute intention is to head the ball, clumsily and stupidly with his eyes closed. Undeniable idiocy, but I can't see any intention of him moving his hands towards the ball purposefully, or putting them in a position which vastly increases the chances of it deflecting the ball to his advantage.

I understand why Oliver has given it, but I feel certain that if referees had the opportunity to review incidents via video replays, the penalty would not be given, as upon seeing the replay there really is no visible sign of any deliberate handling of the ball. His eyes are closed, he gets caught in a panic to regain position, he leaps, and then he thrusts his head towards the ball. He gets it all horribly wrong, but he still doesn't deliberately handle the ball.

You're right that the law is far too vague and leaves a great deal up to the interpretation of the referee. You see some harsh handball calls given all over the pitch, and some clear deliberate handball incidents not given. It's a different interpretation of the rule, game by game.

I've often thought handball in the penalty area should be an indirect free kick, similar to a pass back. Unless it prevents a clear goal scoring opportunity, like being saved on the line like Suarez did a few years ago. Otherwise, it's a very harsh punishment for a call that is guesswork a lot of the time.
 
You cant not book Jones for that and then send off Ander for a nothing tackle seconds later.
How many fouls did Ander even make? He wasnt a repeat offender
 
I wouldn't mind us throwing this game now. Let's just go down to 9 for smashing this cnut so he can't ref again, and do a service to the sport
 
Been buying Hazard falling over under minimal contact all game. Not a surprise.
 
He's a shocking ref. Second time he'll be fecking us over in FA Cup.
 
Neither were yellow card fouls, fecking imbecile. Costa goes into far worse tackle like an idiot and gets away with nothing. We would probably lose anyway but he just ruined the game for no reason.
 
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