Michael Oliver

Refs can't invent a rule that fouling a certain player is automatically a yellow card. That's basically cheating. No idea how anyone can justify that.
 
Herrera could have known because he's probably not completely stupid. He would have seen Smalling being talked to and would have also known that Jones was lucky to get away without a card. To then go and commit a foul straight after is stupid and poor decision making from the player.
Had it been a Chelsea player and the player wasn't booked a second time, I take it the responses on here would have been saying how good Oliver is?

This incident is something you see week in, week out with the referee not booking players for a few fouls and then calling the captain over to say that you've had a few fouls without cautions, any more and they're in the book.

Like I say, if it had been any other player that had tripped Hazard and been cautioned, the decision wouldn't even be getting talked about. It's only because it resulted in a red that we are. Herrera knew he was on a yellow (no matter how soft your interpretation of the first caution is) anf he must have known that he needed to be really careful
 
Pexbo said:
That's what annoyed me the most. He had one hand going to his shirt pocket and the other going to his back pocket. He knew exactly who did the foul and couldn't wait to card him.
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its maybe a bit of arrogance

rather than assessing each foul, his attitude seemed to be 'I've had enough of this'

shame for us
 
Speedy30 said:
Herrera could have known because he's probably not completely stupid. He would have seen Smalling being talked to and would have also known that Jones was lucky to get away without a card. To then go and commit a foul straight after is stupid and poor decision making from the player.
Had it been a Chelsea player and the player wasn't booked a second time, I take it the responses on here would have been saying how good Oliver is?

This incident is something you see week in, week out with the referee not booking players for a few fouls and then calling the captain over to say that you've had a few fouls without cautions, any more and they're in the book.

Like I say, if it had been any other player that had tripped Hazard and been cautioned, the decision wouldn't even be getting talked about. It's only because it resulted in a red that we are. Herrera knew he was on a yellow (no matter how soft your interpretation of the first caution is) anf he must have known that he needed to be really careful
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You keep saying this, but what difference does our reactions on here make? That's just petty point scoring and makes no difference to the actual debate. Let's stick to what actually happened shall we?


You said that the foul was a definite yellow, do you honestly always book those kind of challenges?
 
Ainu said:
There's nothing literal about this in the laws of the game, it's entirely at the ref's discretion. Persistent fouling is listed among cautionable offences with the explicit addition that no specific number or
pattern of infringements constitutes “persistent”. However you interpret that, it does give the ref the option to caution a player for committing the latest offence in what he perceives as a teamwide strategy of persistently fouling the opposition. We can debate to death whether you think it's deserved or not, the point is the ref has that option and it's not unconventional for refs to act in this manner.
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Its not in the refs discretion when the laws about what warrants a booking is literally there.
Its spelled out pretty clearly.
There are no in game amendments
 
There is no explanation in this world that can justify that decision, in the first half of a big quarter final to send someone off for that is absolutely ridiculous. It was a nothing foul miles away from goal and half the refs wouldn't have given a first yellow for that let alone send someone off.
 
Redlambs said:
You keep saying this, but what difference does our reactions on here make? That's just petty point scoring and makes no difference to the actual debate. Let's stick to what actually happened shall we?


You said that the foul was a definite yellow, do you honestly always book those kind of challenges?
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No not always I don't but in the laws, it is an offence as he tripped Hazard. Oliver couldn't let Herrera off a second yellow after he'd just spoken to Smalling and told him that his team have had enough fouls without a yellow being branded.
 
Redlambs said:
You keep saying this, but what difference does our reactions on here make? That's just petty point scoring and makes no difference to the actual debate. Let's stick to what actually happened shall we?


You said that the foul was a definite yellow, do you honestly always book those kind of challenges?
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Not always but not infrequently either. It looked cynical and referees are always likely to make an example of a cynical foul. Especially when it happens less than 15 seconds after lecturing the fecking team captain about cynical fouling!
 
Hate that even on such a ridiculous decision there will always be some extra smart people trying to justify the refs position. Persistent fouling has been a part of the game for ages now and I actually can't ever remember someone getting sent off in the first half for two such innocuous fouls
 
He didn't book valencia there for a worse foul on Hazard.

So even his protected species rule is inconsistently applied.
 
Yep, no consistency in his decision making through this game.
 
Looked to me like it was Conte that got Herrera sent off. Pressured into it.
 
Speedy30 said:
No not always I don't but in the laws, it is an offence as he tripped Hazard. Oliver couldn't let Herrera off a second yellow after he'd just spoken to Smalling and told him that his team have had enough fouls without a yellow being branded.
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Pogue Mahone said:
Not always but not infrequently either. It looked cynical and referees are always likely to make an example of a cynical foul. Especially when it happens less than 15 seconds after lecturing the fecking team captain about cynical fouling!
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I understand this. Herrera wad stupid, and I've said it numerous times.

But I still don't see how and why a responsible ref should back themselves into that corner. That was definitely a soft yellow and not deserving of ruining a very interesting game over, no matter what side it happened too. I don't think it's good refereeing to leave yourself no options in any decision. Besides, it's hardly like there was a Reyes style hatchet job happening anyway, it's all too soft and could have been avoided by both the player and the ref.
 
Have to agree with the consensus on here. Valencia should have seen yellow for that. Terrible challenge
 
Valencia should be off for that tackle alone, but the fact he hasn't been booked for either of those tackles but Herrera was sent off is infuriating.
 
cyberman said:
Its not in the refs discretion when the laws about what warrants a booking is literally there.
Its spelled out pretty clearly.
There are no in game amendments
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I'm not sure what you're arguing against. As I said, it is explicitly stated that there's no definition of the number or pattern that constitutes "persistent", which quite literally means it's at the ref's discretion. Another useful source I've found is a question and answer on exactly this situation on Asktheref.com. http://asktheref.com/Soccer Rules/Question/24316/

If the referee believes that a team is persistently and deliberately infringing the Laws of the Game then the referee is quite entitled to take action. The referee should clearly indicate that the pattern has been observed and warn the team through the captain that the behaviour has been noted and disciplinary action will be taken if it continues.
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This is a named and licensed referee saying exactly the same thing as what I and a couple of others have tried to argue in this thread. You can continue to dismiss this on the basis that it's not literally stated, word for word, that a ref can book a player when he had warned a team for fouls by other players, or you can look at all of this information from a distance and come to a sensible conclusion. The choice is yours.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Valencia should be off for that tackle alone, but the fact he hasn't been booked for either of those tackles but Herrera was sent off is infuriating.
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that's exactly the tackle that saw Vardy sent off at Stoke, had Herrera not gone I think Valencia would have, he is actively trying not to book United players
 
I am convinced that Oliver thought that the Jones foul was made by Herrera just before the second yellow, hence the extremely soft second booking.
 
I turned the game off after the red card. Hope you guys did the same, watching audiences falling would send a message to the FA. This cnut needs to be demoted
 
Redlambs said:
I understand this. Herrera wad stupid, and I've said it numerous times.

But I still don't see how and why a responsible ref should back themselves into that corner. That was definitely a soft yellow and not deserving of ruining a very interesting game over, no matter what side it happened too. I don't think it's good refereeing to leave yourself no options in any decision. Besides, it's hardly like there was a Reyes style hatchet job happening anyway, it's all too soft and could have been avoided by both the player and the ref.
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Fair post and I think that something like this shows just how difficult refereeing actually is. Oliver can't have known that a few seconds after a warning, another foul would be committed so in his defence, he had to bring out the card and I think he was probably annoyed that it was Herrera as he had to then send him off as well.
If that Herrera foul hadn't happened, most people would be thinking that his game management was quite good and in hindsight (which is an awesome thing) Oliver will be dissapointed that he didn't boomk Jones in the first place
 
Redlambs said:
The commentator is wrong there, that's a red from valencia for me.
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Definitely seen them given and I wouldn't argue if he had (I would, because I fecking hate Michael Oliver), I think the only thing in his favour was his feet facing down and being in some form of control by landing and sliding before he reached the player.
 
Oliver lost his cool when he decided to book Herrera a second time. He knows that he fecked up hence the different approach in the second half. Increasingly apparent that a lot of these top referees are out of their depth.
 
Redlambs said:
I understand this. Herrera wad stupid, and I've said it numerous times.

But I still don't see how and why a responsible ref should back themselves into that corner. That was definitely a soft yellow and not deserving of ruining a very interesting game over, no matter what side it happened too. I don't think it's good refereeing to leave yourself no options in any decision. Besides, it's hardly like there was a Reyes style hatchet job happening anyway, it's all too soft and could have been avoided by both the player and the ref.
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Ok, I agree. I think the referee has a duty to think about the game as a spectacle. And you can argue that it was a soft foul to ruin the contest. But relying on the referee to think of the fans is an incredibly risky strategy.
 
Speedy30 said:
Fair post and I think that something like this shows just how difficult refeteeing actually is. Oliver can't have known that a few seconds after a warning, another foul would be committed so in his defence, he had to bring out the card and I think he was probably annoyed that it was Herrera as he had to then send him off as well.
If that Herrera foul hadn't happened, most people would be thinking that his game management was quite good and in hindsight (which is an awesome thing) Oliver will be dissapointed that he didn't boomk Jones in the first place
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That's fair. With that in mind, do you think he isn't booking United players since because he's had time to reflect on that? Costa should easily have a yellow for diving, but we should have another red and a few yellows here.
 
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