[Lyng]

This just further proves to me how underrated Maguire is.

Reads the game better and positioning? Maguire prevents a lot of danger with both his reading of the game, and his positioning, basically every game.

Uses his body more effectively? How is that even possible when Martínez is so much smaller?

Martínez is simply just an inferior profile as a centre-back, mostly because of his size and height, but not solely because of these things.

He is proactive, he is tenacious, he has good timing to help win aerial duels, he's good at improvising, etc. reads the game well too, I'm not denying it, but if you compare the two profiles, a 1,75m tall, not particularly fast CB will never ever be a more valuable profile than a Maguire, de Ligt, Dias, Botman type, who are:

-tall, tower over most opposition players, aerially dominant
-very dominant physically
-good communicators and organizers
-great box defenders, basically box dominators

these are all things Martínez is simply not excellent at or is incapable of being excellent at due to his physical limitations. And all the things you listed for Martínez are absolutely true for Maguire as well.

Martínez will never be able to absolutely dominate a game like Maguire did against Fulham a few weeks ago, for example, or how Maguire regularly dominated opposition when he was our first choice CB under Ole.

Martínez is very valuable when you have the ball, because his press-resistance as a defender is second to none, and he can probably outpass any defender in world football as well, bar probably Trent, and maybe Stones/White are worthy rivals of Lisandro.

However, just looking at it purely defensively, he has a lot of shortcomings, and is simply not built to be a centre-back. The next manager will probably use him at LB and that will be the end of him being a mainstay CB at United.

And please don't even mention the high-line nonsense. Maguire has proven himself in a high-line time and time again. It's even funnier that when Maguire was basically the first name on the team sheet in Ole's two full seasons, we always had one of the highest defensive lines in the league. When ETH came in and benched him for Varane, we had one of the lowest lines in the entire league in both of ETH's full seasons so far. He might not have a lot of pace but that's not the only thing you need for a high-line, you just need to put your slowest CB as a CCB so that he doesn't get exposed in the wide channels 1v1 against pacy attackers. That's how de Ligt should be used too. That's how Dias is used at City too. Botman at Newcastle too. You mask their weaknesses (pace) and maximize their strengths (anticipation, timing, communication, organizing, reading the game, pinning down opposition players, and, well, defending).

He is extremely good at winning physical duels despite his small frame, meanwhile outside of aerial duels Maguire is often turned inside out by defenders running at him do to his tank like movement.
Maguire reads the play terrible. He often acts proactively leaving open acres of space and completely pulls the entire defensive out line out of position.
Maguire has had severe problems with working with several team mates apart from Evans, which is why almost all our other cb's have looked significantly better in other partnerships.

 

[Rojofiam]

Maguire doesn't make our strongest starting backline with a clean bill of health.

Martinez-De Ligt will be first choice, but Yoro will come in and make that position his alongside Martinez this season in my opinion. Martinez himself could be upgraded on next season under a new manager

Maguire will be shipped off next summer for a pittance in all likelihood. He's an 80M misfit and nowhere as good as the British media made him out to be when he signed. No one outside England rates him, and many English based supporters have seen enough

I'm outside England and rate him highly

 

[Rojofiam]

He is extremely good at winning physical duels despite his small frame, meanwhile outside of aerial duels Maguire is often turned inside out by defenders running at him do to his tank like movement.
Maguire reads the play terrible. He often acts proactively leaving open acres of space and completely pulls the entire defensive out line out of position.
Maguire has had severe problems with working with several team mates apart from Evans, which is why almost all our other cb's have looked significantly better in other partnerships.

The bolded part is what I was talking about. You don't use a CCB like Maguire as a wide defender, as he can get absolutely done 1v1 versus a pacey forward, but that's true for other CCBs too who people don't talk about like the way they do about Maguire. Dias absolutely gets humiliated 1v1 at times and easily gets done 1v1 in the wide channels, but somehow it's never talked about. De Ligt too, and every other example I listed as well.

 

[golden_blunder]

the last page reads like Maguire vs Martinez

Yep, wondered into this thread about DeLigt expecting to find some chat about, well DeLigt obviously

 

[Doracle]

Do we think he will start tomorrow or will ETH protect him after the international games?

 

[CannibalSpectre]

Do we think he will start tomorrow or will ETH protect him after the international games?

That's a Dutch NT issue. It might be different if those errors happened while playing for united but I'd still expect him to be selected and continue his adaptation to English football. We can't always hold players hands after poor displays by hiding them.

 

[Oranges038]

No idea what's going on in here.

Maguire is not good enough, Evans held his hand at Leicester. Been proven over and over again he's just not up to it at Utd. Let lDe Ligt and Martinez build a proper relationship with Ugarte in front if them.

Then send Maguire back to Hull.

 

[Bastian]

Do we think he will start tomorrow or will ETH protect him after the international games?

Yes. 100%. I assume that's why he subbed Maguire off in the first two matches. Just to give him time so he can then move him in and Maguire out. I know we'll have a pretty mad schedule for the next three weeks, but I still hope we can see the same centre back pairing most of the time. I'd rather sub de Ligt and Martinez off early than mess with the starting pair.

 

[Rojofiam]

Do we think he will start tomorrow or will ETH protect him after the international games?

I think he will start.

 

[Cassidy]

Do we think he will start tomorrow or will ETH protect him after the international games?

He'll rightly start

 

[Doracle]

That's a Dutch NT issue. It might be different if those errors happened while playing for united but I'd still expect him to be selected and continue his adaptation to English football. We can't always hold players hands after poor displays by hiding them.

I was mainly getting this thread back on track rather than a debate about two different players :-).

Yeah, I think that’s the way it will go. Have to say my main concern is his interview after the first match:

"I think you know how I feel... we won... but then comes the individual part. I should have done better at their second goal, and I know that. I don't really know what happened. I should have cleared the ball but I kept having doubts during the play. It's just f****d."

I’m quoting this from Goal but is it accurate? The part that worries me is where he says he kept having doubts during play. Given his error in the second match also looked like a player unsure what to do, it’s a little concerning.

Fingers crossed he does start tomorrow and plays well. If he happens to make an error, he’s going to be under huge pressure already.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Well, i'm a Bayern fan
But i hold no grudge against de Ligt and still think he probably was our best defender, although he's displaying shades of Upa and Kim currently.

That’s fair. People are being pretty mean with him since joining United though. There’s no consideration to the fact he’s literally just got here and may need time to adapt.


Guarantee he wouldn’t get this level of abuse if he joined any other club.

 

[CannibalSpectre]

I was mainly getting this thread back on track rather than a debate about two different players :-).

Yeah, I think that’s the way it will go. Have to say my main concern is his interview after the first match:

"I think you know how I feel... we won... but then comes the individual part. I should have done better at their second goal, and I know that. I don't really know what happened. I should have cleared the ball but I kept having doubts during the play. It's just f****d."

I’m quoting this from Goal but is it accurate? The part that worries me is where he says he kept having doubts during play. Given his error in the second match also looked like a player unsure what to do, it’s a little concerning.

Fingers crossed he does start tomorrow and plays well. If he happens to make an error, he’s going to be under huge pressure already.

The quotes are real. I think De Ligt is a victim of his early hype. De Ligt admitted that he wasnt the same player he was at Ajax a few months into his baptism of fire at Juventus. Sarri wanted to ease him in to life in Turin, but he was forced to start him early after injury to Chiellini. De Ligt played on the left side of Bonucci and he made some high profile errors including two handballs that led to penalties for the opposition, including a match against Inter which Juventus lost 3-1. De Ligt also had a poor performance in a 3-1 loss away to Napoli in December of 2019

At this point, Sarri dropped him for Merit Demiral and De Ligt wasnt restored to the starting 11 until Demiral got injured 7 matches later

De Ligt also had a high profile handball playing for the Dutch NT at the delayed 2020 Euros that earned him a red card. The Dutch lost that game to Czechia 2-0 and De Ligt admitted his fault and took blame.

At this point he earned a reputation for being error prone, for rushing into challenges and for not having much quality on the ball. British media didn't really pick up on this and it explains why many united fans think he's being suddenly heavily scrutinized.

I also read that De Ligt sought and spoke to a psychologist after being left out completely by Koeman at Euro 2024.

He also was dropped at WC 2022 after the opening match by Van Gaal. He could be a confidence player who often gers caught in two minds. This could explain some of the quotes you shared that led you to express concerns about him being unsure

When asked about his early struggles at Juventus, De Light mentioned how he chose Juventus because he felt Sarri played aggressive attacking football that he found appealing. However in Italy defenders are expected to defend first and play football second. According to De Ligt this was part of the reason he struggled. It was even suggested that he could go back to Ajax on loan in the winter window of his first season at Juventus

He also had the following to say about his early struggles at Juventus:

"At Ajax, I felt invincible. Today it's different. But I think it's normal because everything is new for me. I'm progressing and I'm not worried.

"I don't know myself why I'm not playing as well as I'd like. All I can do is continue to work, to do my best and to try to learn from my team-mates.

"I play and that's the main thing because, in the end, I'm sure that everything will go well and this season will be positive."

https://syndication.bleacherreport....ls-invincible-after-move-to-juventus.amp.html


At Bayern he wasn't favored by Tuchel, who drastically reduced his minutes in his second season in charge, particularly in the second half of the season and the business end. It's said Tuchel felt De Ligt was too slow in the build-up and that he passed the ball sideways too often.

The coach wants to see a vertical, quick build-up of play from his central defenders. De Ligt has problems with this. He also often played sideways against Werder and put his teammates under pressure with unfortunate passes. His defense colleagues Dayot Upamecano (25) and Minjae Kim (27), who is currently with South Korea at the Asian Cup in Qatar, implemented Tuchel’s demands better.

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...igt-bayern-munich-kim-min-jae-dayot-upamecano

In my opinion, if De Ligt struggled in Italy and Germany it's unlikely he'll turn things around in England with the even more fierce competition and the extra scrutiny. He's not a bad player, but he's nowhere near the player his early promise (and mostly early hype) indicated he could turn out to be. He's 25, he's still young and can improve, so time will tell

 

[Doracle]

Thanks @CannibalSpectre. Interesting background and worrying as I don’t think there’s a club where he will be more in the microscope than United. Hopefully we can build his confidence and get the Ajax version to fulfil his potential. With the injury worries as well, this does look a high risk signing.

 

[FortunaUtd]

The quotes are real. I think De Ligt is a victim of his early hype. De Ligt admitted that he wasnt the same player he was at Ajax a few months into his baptism of fire at Juventus. Sarri wanted to ease him in to life in Turin, but he was forced to start him early after injury to Chiellini. De Ligt played on the left side of Bonucci and he made some high profile errors including two handballs that led to penalties for the opposition, including a match against Inter which Juventus lost 3-1. De Ligt also had a poor performance in a 3-1 loss away to Napoli in December of 2019

At this point, Sarri dropped him for Merit Demiral and De Ligt wasnt restored to the starting 11 until Demiral got injured 7 matches later

De Ligt also had a high profile handball playing for the Dutch NT at the delayed 2020 Euros that earned him a red card. The Dutch lost that game to Czechia 2-0 and De Ligt admitted his fault and took blame.

At this point he earned a reputation for being error prone, for rushing into challenges and for not having much quality on the ball. British media didn't really pick up on this and it explains why many united fans think he's being suddenly heavily scrutinized.

I also read that De Ligt sought and spoke to a psychologist after being left out completely by Koeman at Euro 2024.

He also was dropped at WC 2022 after the opening match by Van Gaal. He could be a confidence player who often gers caught in two minds. This could explain some of the quotes you shared that led you to express concerns about him being unsure

When asked about his early struggles at Juventus, De Light mentioned how he chose Juventus because he felt Sarri played aggressive attacking football that he found appealing. However in Italy defenders are expected to defend first and play football second. According to De Ligt this was part of the reason he struggled. It was even suggested that he could go back to Ajax on loan in the winter window of his first season at Juventus

He also had the following to say about his early struggles at Juventus:

"At Ajax, I felt invincible. Today it's different. But I think it's normal because everything is new for me. I'm progressing and I'm not worried.

"I don't know myself why I'm not playing as well as I'd like. All I can do is continue to work, to do my best and to try to learn from my team-mates.

"I play and that's the main thing because, in the end, I'm sure that everything will go well and this season will be positive."

https://syndication.bleacherreport....ls-invincible-after-move-to-juventus.amp.html


At Bayern he wasn't favored by Tuchel, who drastically reduced his minutes in his second season in charge, particularly in the second half of the season and the business end. It's said Tuchel felt De Ligt was too slow in the build-up and that he passed the ball sideways too often.

The coach wants to see a vertical, quick build-up of play from his central defenders. De Ligt has problems with this. He also often played sideways against Werder and put his teammates under pressure with unfortunate passes. His defense colleagues Dayot Upamecano (25) and Minjae Kim (27), who is currently with South Korea at the Asian Cup in Qatar, implemented Tuchel’s demands better.

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...igt-bayern-munich-kim-min-jae-dayot-upamecano

In my opinion, if De Ligt struggled in Italy and Germany it's unlikely he'll turn things around in England with the even more fierce competition and the extra scrutiny. He's not a bad player, but he's nowhere near the player his early promise (and mostly early hype) indicated he could turn out to be. He's 25, he's still young and can improve, so time will tell

The orange part ist just plain factually wrong. Amazing how you make shit up, write blatantly false stuff and then guise it in some pseudo-journalistic formatting.

 

[A-man]

He is extremely good at winning physical duels despite his small frame, meanwhile outside of aerial duels Maguire is often turned inside out by defenders running at him do to his tank like movement.

I would argue it is the opposite; Martinez is quite poor in duels.
If we look at aerial duels he is probably the worst in the whole PL. Rarely challenges, and when forced to go into a duel his win rate is quite low.
On the ground he challenge a lot but so far this season the success rate is 50% just like it was last season. He’s also already been dribbled past 5 times in three games.

 

[CannibalSpectre]

The orange part ist just plain factually wrong. Amazing how you make shit up, write blatantly false stuff and then guise it in some pseudo-journalistic formatting.

What's the truth of it then? There were hoards of posts on Bayerns Reddit page by fans complaining about De Ligts reduced game time in Tuchels second season, particularly in the latter stage of the season.

It was reported in Bild (perhaps not the best reputation) that Tuchel and De Ligt had a fallout after Tuchel dropped him for the 3-0 loss at Leverkusen for instance. Eric Dier played in his stead in a back three alongside Upamecano and Kim.

https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/...t-naechsten-top-star-sauer-87116348.bild.html


In the top match against Leverkusen (0:3), Thomas Tuchel (50) fielded three central defenders in the unfamiliar defensive line. The players were: Eric Dier (30), Tottenham's substitute until the winter. Minjae Kim (25), who only returned to Munich from the Asian Cup on Wednesday. And Dayot Upamecano (25), who started training just three days before the match after a torn muscle fiber.

BILD later asked de Ligt whether he was fit for the duel against Leverkusen. His answer was just one word, but it was a clear statement: "In top shape!"
De Ligt was understandably frustrated after the 3-0 defeat. He has slipped to the very bottom of the central defender rankings.

Now, as Tuchel has repeatedly stressed, "the cards have been put on the table" in Leverkusen: De Ligt plays no role in Tuchel's plans. SPORT BILD reported on January 16th about the strained relationship between the coach and the defender.

Tuchel wanted a new central defender in the winter and spoke to Barcelona's defensive leader Ronald Araújo (24) on the phone. The man from Uruguay is still a desired player for the summer, and Leverkusen's Jonathan Tah (28) is also being watched.
For de Ligt (contract until 2027) there is actually only one scenario at FC Bayern that will give him a future at the club: a change in the coaching position. Because de Ligt has known that Tuchel is not a fan of him, and not just since the bitter decision in the top match against Leverkusen.


Below is a link to one post on Bayerns popular Subreddit bemoaning his lack of game time:



https://www.reddit.com/r/BayernMunich/s/G9tvN6CY8o

 

[FortunaUtd]

What's the truth of it then? There were hoards of posts on Bayerns Reddit page by fans complaining about De Ligts reduced game time in Tuchels second season, particularly in the latter stage of the season.

It was reported in Bild that Tuchel and De Ligt had a fallout after Tuchel dropped him for the 3-0 loss at Leverkusen for instance. Eric Dier played in his stead in a back three alongside Upamecano and Kim.

https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/...t-naechsten-top-star-sauer-87116348.bild.html


In the top match against Leverkusen (0:3), Thomas Tuchel (50) fielded three central defenders in the unfamiliar defensive line. The players were: Eric Dier (30), Tottenham's substitute until the winter. Minjae Kim (25), who only returned to Munich from the Asian Cup on Wednesday. And Dayot Upamecano (25), who started training just three days before the match after a torn muscle fiber.

BILD later asked de Ligt whether he was fit for the duel against Leverkusen. His answer was just one word, but it was a clear statement: "In top shape!"
De Ligt was understandably frustrated after the 3-0 defeat. He has slipped to the very bottom of the central defender rankings.

Now, as Tuchel has repeatedly stressed, "the cards have been put on the table" in Leverkusen: De Ligt plays no role in Tuchel's plans. SPORT BILD reported on January 16th about the strained relationship between the coach and the defender.




Below is a link to one post on Bayerns popular Subreddit bemoaning his lack of game time:



https://www.reddit.com/r/BayernMunich/s/G9tvN6CY8o

The truth is that De Ligt was a starter in the latter stage of last season.
The article you linked to in your former post could not be more out of date, since it is from January 2024 claiming how Upamecano and Kim were Tuchel's preferred CB pairing, yet in the second half of the season Tuchel abruptly dropped Upamecano for De Ligt and Kim for Dier.

And this is the context of the Leverkusen game in February the BILD article is about, which claims De Ligt is out of favour with Tuchel... yeah well. Quite the fallout they had.

 

[CannibalSpectre]

De Ligt was a starter in the latter stage of last season.
The article you linked to in your former post could not be more out of date, since it is from January 2024 claiming how Upamecano and Kim were Tuchel's preferred CB pairing, yet in the second half of the season Tuchel abruptly dropped Upamecano for De Ligt and Kim for Dier.

And this is the context of the Leverkusen game in February the BILD article is about, which claims De Ligt is out of favour with Tuchel... yeah well. Quite the fallout they had.

Why is it then that De Ligt had considerable less game time than both Upamecano and Kim? His game time was closer in numbers to Dier. Was it due to a long injury layoff?

 

[FortunaUtd]

Why is it then that De Ligt had considerable less game time than both Upamecano and Kim? His game time was closer in numbers to Dier. Was it due to a long injury layoff?

He was on the bench at the beginning of the season with Upamecano and Kim starting, then became starter in October and was injured in November and December.
The competition at CB was fierce but De Ligt came out of it as Tuchel's first CB eventually.

 

[FortunaUtd]

By the way, @CannibalSpectre, apologies for being aggressive, it is just that I read too many times on here (from others, not you) blatantly false claims how Dier benched De Ligt or such nonsense.

And it is also true that the picture might have been different if Kim had not gone to the Asian Cup with his form apparently falling off a cliff later, and if Upamecano had not thrown in a few of his periodical disaster games. If both had remained in top form, De Ligt might have struggled for game time.
But that is how it is if a team is stacked in central defense. Ideally you would want more than two CBs that you'd like to see starting even if not all of them can end up starting.
It seems a specialty of our fans to denigrate players of their own team and squad to big up others. But it is a fecking team sport, and you need a top squad.
Eventually, Bayern's overstacking on CB and amassing a high wage bill as byproduct of their disrupted and dysfunctional board history meant we could snatch De Ligt from them, it is our gain.

 

[CannibalSpectre]

By the way, @CannibalSpectre, apologies for being aggressive, it is just that I read too many times on here (from others, not you) blatantly false claims how Dier benched De Ligt or such nonsense.

And it is also true that the picture might have been different if Kim had not gone to the Asian Cup with his form apparently falling off a cliff later, and if Upamecano had not thrown in a few of his periodical disaster games. If both had remained in top form, De Ligt might have struggled for game time.
But that is how it is if a team is stacked in central defense. Ideally you would want more than two CBs that you'd like to see starting even if not all of them can end up starting.
It seems a specialty of our fans to denigrate players of their own team and squad to big up others. But it is a fecking team sport, and you need a top squad.
Eventually, Bayern's overstacking on CB and amassing a high wage bill as byproduct of their disrupted and dysfunctional board history meant we could snatch De Ligt from them, it is our gain.

No worries. Hopefully he fully finds his feet at united. We're long due some real stability at the back

 

[B. Munich]

At Bayern he wasn't favored by Tuchel, who drastically reduced his minutes in his second season in charge, particularly in the second half of the season and the business end. It's said Tuchel felt De Ligt was too slow in the build-up and that he passed the ball sideways too often.

Don't think that's true. De Ligt and Dier played most games in the second half of the season. Especially after the disaster display of Upamecano and Kim in Heidenheim.

I rate Upamecano higher. If he can play like in the French national team, he is the best of our defenders.

However, I preferred we kept De Ligt and would have sold Kim instead. Not convicted by him. After all he had only one great season at Napoli.

Why did Bayern sell De Ligt? No idea it was just because there were offers for Kim or the coaching team sees something in him we fans just don't.

 

[Highfather_24]

Was funny to hear Ten Hag say MDL will "bounce back". I was just waiting for him to say how he needs to "stick to the plan".

 

[top1whoisman]

Got dribbled past easily by KWP once, apart from that a monster performance.

 

[Ekeke]

Motm, nice to have a goalscoring CB

 

[Shinjch]

Very encouraging today.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Excellent signing. Him and Yoro will be amazing together.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Best player on the pitch.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

Excellent except that one moment.

 

[Telsim]

MotM for me. Hope he is alright.

 

[JB08]

Is he injured?

 

[DWelbz19]

He’ll thrive in these sorts of games. He’s a proper defender in that regard.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Love him, he's a proper leader

 

[jem]

Fantastic - man of the match, for me

 

[mu4c_20le]

Looks like he got the major blunders out of him midweek.

Still needs some time to get used to PL but encouraging start

 

[Leftback99]

Good performance to silence the doubters.

 

[Bastian]

I think he's quite obviously our best centre back. Should eventually become captain.

 

[bosnian_red]

Not worried at all about him, think he'll be quality. Ultimately it's about forming a top partnership too, and for Netherlands he never had an understanding with Van Dijk so hopefully he can get that going with Martinez.

 

[SER19]

Some matchday comments about him should be ban worthy. Quality of forum dragged down to absolute YouTube comment level with some of the bilge in there.