He’s one I don’t think should be in our starting 11 but another team like Juve, Inter or even Real might pay good money for, for that reason we should be looking to move him on and get a replacement who is tall, fast and strong to sit alongside Yoro and de Ligt.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 25
- Clean sheets
- 6
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 6
I don't know about "now" as the issues and concern about him has gone from rather muted to mild to unsure to now a serious concern and that has been in a back 4, before the 3-man system and Amorim arrived at the club. It's more been moments in games in the past; moments that sometimes produce the lapses that are costly, but lapses nonetheless. In the 3-man system, what's different is they're not lapses anymore and if the player he is and has been was the one we got when initially purchasing him, there'd be almost unanimous concurrence that we made a bad purchase. His first season, before the injury, is where he is given leeway and has the credit in the back that would buy him the time and perseverance.Everyone is going in on Martinez now and it's fair game but I'm not sure I would agree with the bolded. His main issues right now as you've highlighted are his lack of incision with his passing in that LCB position, tackling, management of open space and aerials on set pieces. In the middle just like his days in a back four, he's shown more than good enough qualities imo. The issue is whether it's good enough Amorim and whether he'll get a chance there.
In open play, Martinez is smart at influencing aerials so that the opponent doesn't do much/can't direct it well. When the play is in front of him, his anticipation and aggressive tackling can work because he'll be in the central areas of the pitch i.e the two wide CBs will be mostly dealing with the first defensive actions in the channels. He's a good box defender (despite recent showings) and covers well just outside of the penalty area; his inconsistency is mostly in the wider areas. The only consistent issue I have with him in that CCB role is aerials on set pieces.
It's gamble but one worth trying imo because de Ligt or Maguire aren't exactly perfect themselves.
Mazraoui, Martinez and Shaw?Super small but not like we're winning any aerials from set pieces right now anyways but that's a pretty good back three on the ball. I'd have Ugarte and Casemiro in front of them with Dalot as RWB. The latter two have good height and jumping power so along with Hojlund (if Amorim tells him, he can actually jump upwards and not just from the same spot) would help mitigate some of the aerial situations.
Your CCB is supposed to be your calmest and best reader and organiser. For me, we don't have an optimal CCB at the club unless you can put Evans in a time capsule and take him back to the self he used to be in his 20's and early 30's. Outside of him, it's a sliding scale of most decent fit to worst fit. Martinez is too rash, too clumsy and just not positionally sound enough for the role. We can talk about the benefits, particularly with playing out from there, but first and foremost you want a solid and trustworthy foil to the two proactive flanking L/R CB's.
Height just isn't the factor that it is talked about as being, for me, certainly not in isolation, anyway. It compounds when the positioning and/or athleticism is bad and worsens still if the short guy doesn't have a specialist niche to his defensive skill set i.e. assured in what he's doing 1on1 because of A, B or C. Baresi is only 5' 9" yet is often classed as the best CB of all time (duelling it out with Nesta, Moore and Maldini in particular in terms of the big/renowned names - otherwise the likes of Figueroa, Kohler and so forth enter the fray), but if you ever watch games of his, the intuitive reading of the game and what to do at all times is like no other. You don't need to use such lofty names to make a point about this as it's par for the course amongst great, short(er) CB's that they just know what to do and where they are supposed to be at a rate that it is a template for others to follow. Ayala, Thiago Silva, Cannavaro, Cordoba and so on were so much better at reading play than most around them that their height was not on the table for discussion outside of trivia questions in pubs - problem here is all of those players were renowned for freakishly great elements to their physical capability, particularly leaping, which kills height concerns almost immediately. Martinez doesn't have this in his locker, which is why how tall he is continues to be a hot topic, particularly on corners.
If Martinez was better positionally and particularly if he had that salmon-leap in his locker, you'd not hear a peep about how tall he is every two seconds. I should also point out that an ancient Thiago Silva - who was a literal decade and a half off his prime - showed what being undersized and superb looks like in this very league Martinez is referred as being too short for. I guarantee you if he [Martinez] read the game like Thiago Silva, it wouldn't be a conversation. The same goes for any of the lesser names above - you give Martinez their reading of the game and his thread would look very different (even if he isn't the athlete any of them are). Hell, you don't need to even leave the club to show what superior reading of the game in a short CB looks like as Shaw is never spoken about as too small when he plays the exact same position despite being negligibly taller than Martinez himself.
To the bolded. He is extremely consistent with the things he isn't good at. You can set your watch by them, even, which is why it's prudent to target him to get the expected mistakes he'll make when isolated, and that's the problem with the 3-man backline; there are going to be a lot more times when you're on your own and have to duel 1on1. The guy in the middle has an even greater set of responsibilities as that's the person you're relying on to sweep up after others or be proactive and certain enough as the loose man to know exactly what should be done in the corridors of uncertainty that specifically call out their reading of play.
Never mind my whittering on; the proof of the pudding is whether Amorim even looks to try Martinez in the middle of the 3. He hasn't thus far, and that might well be because Shaw isn't fit... or, it might be that he simply doesn't see Martinez as capable of fulfilling the prerequisites for it. I know which one I think it is.
At those clubs, the midfield matrix as well as the quality of the attacks ensure CB's spend much less time defending or on the backfoot than they do at looking at ways to influence the game offensively and penetratively. The better a team is at attacking, the more they can focus on influencing play from the backline - it's the reason someone like Trent has gotten away with being a "FB" for a career despite being called a defensive liability for the majority of his time as a pro.
Martinez is going to be in his element in any team that has him influencing games with his passing and certainty when it comes to using the ball. We're a really bad fit when it comes to this due to the sheer amount of times we're defending or not in control of games over 90 minutes.
Could easily see Martinez going to either club and thriving... probably leading to people bemoaning why he couldn't do the same here.
Three main general things to address. First being that my original post was a temporary 'why not try it' for the current season because I believe the potential positives outweigh the negatives. Secondly, I don't disagree Martinez has some serious concerns with regards to his form and weaknesses. Thirdly, as for the bolded, I think whilst he has been inconsistent, I don't think his weaknesses are consistent at all i.e it really depends on his form. He was having some really good games even just over a month or so ago (under ETH, Ruud and even some Amorim games) where his anticipation, defensive reading of the game and passing was good enough where some were saying he looked like the Martinez of old (first season).
Before I delve any deeper though, I'm not saying he's the best person there and that I'm advocating for him long term at the CCB position. I simply believe there is some 'untapped' potential because I think his weaknesses are exacerbated out wide in the channels. He is rash at times but most of those incidents IIRC are when he's pressing high into midfield or making reckless tackles both of which I don't think he's particularly consistently bad at. Also I believe he's a player than thrives with responsibility because he's often our best player at the back when it comes to beating a press, driving with the ball or playing incisive passes when we behind and the stakes are higher. I actually think he's decent at reading the defensive situations when the ball in solely in front of him (e.g which we've seen when he's in a back four) and whilst I don't think he's elite at the organising, I don't think any of our other defenders can lay a claim close to that anyways. Perhaps de Ligt can show that when given time and games under his belt with us.
TLDR: I know Martinez isn't a Thiago Silva, I just don't think Maguire or what de Ligt has shown thus far is anything worth blindly pursuing with simply because of their physical profile and would argue their weaknesses are hindering us as much as a Martinez is in the LCB position. The difference is that the Argentine has game influencing ability, which is imo being underutilised. My hypothetical is a long shot though and I acknowledge that. Maybe we'll revisit ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶, if it happens and he does well
I think there's a conflation of two issues here and that needs to be separated first and foremost. You are oscillating between defensive actions and contributions and offensive ones and they are two disparate issues when talking about any version of Martinez. I don't think there's any pushback whatsoever from anyone - even in his current state - that he's comfortably the best at the club at coming out of defence and doing something constructive with the ball. It's precisely why the Big 2 in Spain will look at him and why he'd very likely look like he's back to his best at either club.Three main general things to address. First being that my original post was a temporary 'why not try it' for the current season because I believe the potential positives outweigh the negatives. Secondly, I don't disagree Martinez has some serious concerns with regards to his form and weaknesses. Thirdly, as for the bolded, I think whilst he has been inconsistent, I don't think his weaknesses are consistent at all i.e it really depends on his form. He was having some really good games even just over a month or so ago (under ETH, Ruud and even some Amorim games) where his anticipation, defensive reading of the game and passing was good enough where some were saying he looked like the Martinez of old (first season).
Before I delve any deeper though, I'm not saying he's the best person there and that I'm advocating for him long term at the CCB position. I simply believe there is some 'untapped' potential because I think his weaknesses are exacerbated out wide in the channels. He is rash at times but most of those incidents IIRC are when he's pressing high into midfield or making reckless tackles both of which I don't think he's particularly consistently bad at. Also I believe he's a player than thrives with responsibility because he's often our best player at the back when it comes to beating a press, driving with the ball or playing incisive passes when we behind and the stakes are higher. I actually think he's decent at reading the defensive situations when the ball in solely in front of him (e.g which we've seen when he's in a back four) and whilst I don't think he's elite at the organising, I don't think any of our other defenders can lay a claim close to that anyways. Perhaps de Ligt can show that when given time and games under his belt with us.
TLDR: I know Martinez isn't a Thiago Silva, I just don't think Maguire or what de Ligt has shown thus far is anything worth blindly pursuing with simply because of their physical profile and would argue their weaknesses are hindering us as much as a Martinez is in the LCB position. The difference is that the Argentine has game influencing ability, which is imo being underutilised. My hypothetical is a long shot though and I acknowledge that. Maybe we'll revisit ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶, if it happens and he does well
If our onus is on consistent contribution from our backline to the offensive actions of the team, Martinez is the first name on the teamsheet from the CB's we have, so much so that you'd work out how to protect him and extract the best of what he is out of him even in this seemingly diminished state. If you gave me the brief of setting up the team so that we get the best out of Martinez, he'd go into the middle of the 3 and he'd have Ugarte and Casemiro ahead of him. We'd be playing a variant of what teams in the 70's and 80's used to get the best out of their sweeper, essentially. The contingency would be for others to cater to every whim and mistake Martinez makes defensively whilst enabling him to express himself optimally on the offensive end, but that's something reserved for very special players, perhaps the last of which was Sammer in a back 3. Is Martinez good enough for that kind of TLC? Amorim doesn't seem to think so at all thus far, but who knows whether he might try for it further down the line?
The problem here is the ratio between our backline defending and scrambling vis-à-vis being some masterful 3rd wave contributing to the constructive build up of the attack is heavily tilted i.e. you're far, far more likely to see the unit in a panic than you are to see concerted control, and then you're looking at these players from the defensive perspective first and foremost (which might be a d'uh moment, but still important to mention) and where we're looking at each CB for their individual qualities and foibles and why such and such can't/doesn't go here or there in the 3. Martinez is left-footed, which is the primary reason why he lines up at LCB; it's a no-brainer on paper, but opens him (and us) to the things he isn't good at as an isolated player. His lack of pace is important because he's going to be forced into 1on1's, which require that athleticism he lacks allied to the reading of the game to either nip that in the bud or use as a recovery asset, which he struggles with. As others have said, he's in do or die's a lot because of that - he knows he has to get everything spot on and that's a lot of pressure in itself; those with the recovery pace and athleticism can make mistakes and rectify them in the same play to the point people don't fixate on what they did wrong and only the end result that they still achieved the objective of stopping the man/ball. Martinez doesn't get that grace and he's perceived harshly more off the things that go wrong for him than the things he pulls off.
The problems for Martinez don't really end with a position change to the CCB unless we exert a lot more control on games as a whole, but then, I don't think we have this discussion if we are a controlled team - we cause our CB's to commit to things a lot more than should have to and I think that's part of the problem. It's like a set of keepers - all can look great and then a mistake or two can tarnish a whole performance - and I don't think Martinez gets put through the mill so much at other clubs that are front end.
BTW, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you have to examine how and why that comes about and what needs to be put in place for it to be viable, which is where I think you see Amorim veer away from considering it. De Ligt I'm not sold on and Maguire is so so, but I get why they are put there over Martinez in our current predicament; us facilitating Martinez at CCB and not compromising even more of the team than we currently do feels like a remote likelihood to me. At least with De Ligt or Maguire you get the aerial presence and physical strength - they're both faster than him (eek) and he's not even much better than them over short distances. The reading of play isn't resoundingly better from any one from the 3, so you can't even say Martinez has that over them, where you usually expect the short CB to be the guy who is head and shoulders over others in this respect because he has to be to get by. I wouldn't mind us trying it; we lose games handily anyway, so what harm can it do to examine? You might be on to something, even...
Why is Shaw in the left side of a 3 even being discussed. Shaw shouldn’t even be considered in the squad at this point. His fitness record would make Hargreaves jealous. If gets fit for 5 minutes we should try and sell him in that window of time and get whatever we can for him.
Wolves 2:0 Man Utd
New
Thought he had a decent game. Wasn't paying 100% attention but much better than his last and I don't think he did badly in anything apart from maybe one or two balls in behind.
All good, I know my hypothetical is most likely going to stay that, just like the hope of Bruno not being an automatic first name on the sheet for us i.e it's never not happened since he's been bought here. Between 'is Martinez good enough to have the team semi-built around him' and 'is this what Amorim wants', I'm not so sure is a good argument against trying him at CCB tbh. Amorim is going to have to learn very quickly despite what he wants to build, he's going to have some serious physicality and superior technical prowess in his teams to compete in this league. I've been watching his interviews/pressers and he's answered the question of rotation about simply not wanting to injure players but I can't fathom why he has frozen out Casemiro. Again purely thinking for just this season, I recall having a discussion with you about Mainoo and whilst why I didn't like it, I thought ETH should play Ugarte and Casemiro in the middle. Now with a different manager and a different system, I still think that, which sort of leads me to my 'let's play Fifa in my head' scenario of Martinez as the CCB. By my reckoning, Maguire, de Ligt and Mainoo* aren't that physically or technically superior enough to play where they currently are so if that's the case why not try Martinez, where you know you will get superior technical ball playing in the middle whilst also shoring up the spine.
*I want Mainoo to succeed and want him in the team of course. I've even said in his thread that perhaps we may see him in the 10 position ahead of Casemiro and Eriksen now that we have Ugarte and Bruno suspended.
Anyways, I'll carry on dreaming. It's the only respite I can get from the dross of reality that we're currently seeing.
I think there's a conflation of two issues here and that needs to be separated first and foremost. You are oscillating between defensive actions and contributions and offensive ones and they are two disparate issues when talking about any version of Martinez. I don't think there's any pushback whatsoever from anyone - even in his current state - that he's comfortably the best at the club at coming out of defence and doing something constructive with the ball. It's precisely why the Big 2 in Spain will look at him and why he'd very likely look like he's back to his best at either club.
If our onus is on consistent contribution from our backline to the offensive actions of the team, Martinez is the first name on the teamsheet from the CB's we have, so much so that you'd work out how to protect him and extract the best of what he is out of him even in this seemingly diminished state. If you gave me the brief of setting up the team so that we get the best out of Martinez, he'd go into the middle of the 3 and he'd have Ugarte and Casemiro ahead of him. We'd be playing a variant of what teams in the 70's and 80's used to get the best out of their sweeper, essentially. The contingency would be for others to cater to every whim and mistake Martinez makes defensively whilst enabling him to express himself optimally on the offensive end, but that's something reserved for very special players, perhaps the last of which was Sammer in a back 3. Is Martinez good enough for that kind of TLC? Amorim doesn't seem to think so at all thus far, but who knows whether he might try for it further down the line?
The problem here is the ratio between our backline defending and scrambling vis-à-vis being some masterful 3rd wave contributing to the constructive build up of the attack is heavily tilted i.e. you're far, far more likely to see the unit in a panic than you are to see concerted control, and then you're looking at these players from the defensive perspective first and foremost (which might be a d'uh moment, but still important to mention) and where we're looking at each CB for their individual qualities and foibles and why such and such can't/doesn't go here or there in the 3. Martinez is left-footed, which is the primary reason why he lines up at LCB; it's a no-brainer on paper, but opens him (and us) to the things he isn't good at as an isolated player. His lack of pace is important because he's going to be forced into 1on1's, which require that athleticism he lacks allied to the reading of the game to either nip that in the bud or use as a recovery asset, which he struggles with. As others have said, he's in do or die's a lot because of that - he knows he has to get everything spot on and that's a lot of pressure in itself; those with the recovery pace and athleticism can make mistakes and rectify them in the same play to the point people don't fixate on what they did wrong and only the end result that they still achieved the objective of stopping the man/ball. Martinez doesn't get that grace and he's perceived harshly more off the things that go wrong for him than the things he pulls off.
The problems for Martinez don't really end with a position change to the CCB unless we exert a lot more control on games as a whole, but then, I don't think we have this discussion if we are a controlled team - we cause our CB's to commit to things a lot more than should have to and I think that's part of the problem. It's like a set of keepers - all can look great and then a mistake or two can tarnish a whole performance - and I don't think Martinez gets put through the mill so much at other clubs that are front end.
BTW, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you have to examine how and why that comes about and what needs to be put in place for it to be viable, which is where I think you see Amorim veer away from considering it. De Ligt I'm not sold on and Maguire is so so, but I get why they are put there over Martinez in our current predicament; us facilitating Martinez at CCB and not compromising even more of the team than we currently do feels like a remote likelihood to me. At least with De Ligt or Maguire you get the aerial presence and physical strength - they're both faster than him (eek) and he's not even much better than them over short distances. The reading of play isn't resoundingly better from any one from the 3, so you can't even say Martinez has that over them, where you usually expect the short CB to be the guy who is head and shoulders over others in this respect because he has to be to get by. I wouldn't mind us trying it; we lose games handily anyway, so what harm can it do to examine? You might be on to something, even...
All good, I know my hypothetical is most likely going to stay that, just like the hope of Bruno not being an automatic first name on the sheet for us i.e it's never not happened since he's been bought here. Between 'is Martinez good enough to have the team semi-built around him' and 'is this what Amorim wants', I'm not so sure is a good argument against trying him at CCB tbh. Amorim is going to have to learn very quickly despite what he wants to build, he's going to have some serious physicality and superior technical prowess in his teams to compete in this league. I've been watching his interviews/pressers and he's answered the question of rotation about simply not wanting to injure players but I can't fathom why he has frozen out Casemiro. Again purely thinking for just this season, I recall having a discussion with you about Mainoo and whilst why I didn't like it, I thought ETH should play Ugarte and Casemiro in the middle. Now with a different manager and a different system, I still think that, which sort of leads me to my 'let's play Fifa in my head' scenario of Martinez as the CCB. By my reckoning, Maguire, de Ligt and Mainoo* aren't that physically or technically superior enough to play where they currently are so if that's the case why not try Martinez, where you know you will get superior technical ball playing in the middle whilst also shoring up the spine.
*I want Mainoo to succeed and want him in the team of course. I've even said in his thread that perhaps we may see him in the 10 position ahead of Casemiro and Eriksen now that we have Ugarte and Bruno suspended.
Anyways, I'll carry on dreaming. It's the only respite I can get from the dross of reality that we're currently seeing.
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Thought he was quite good, and now I’m starting to think that Dalot is more an issue than Martinez. Martinez had to cover so much ground and often finds himself in foot races where Dalot should have been, and subsequently Martinez had to do two jobs. He isn’t fast enough for that - very few CBs are. Dalot is a disaster in that lwb position.
How long until Shaw returns? I don't see three in the back as sustainable in the long term and it is clearly exposing Martinez who, besides the assit against city, isn't athletic enough to cover for mistakes and run the pitch over and over.
Martinez is an interesting study for a number of reasons. The player he came here as, and how he performed up until the injury, is the kind you naturally gravitate toward building something around. It wasn't just his ability that would draw eyes to him, but also his desire to take responsibility and both show for and use, the ball. He looked like a natural leader and someone you let get on with it, as his presence and want/need to influence games was evident. That is the guy who gets the keys to the kingdom and has managers catering to his game in a bid to optimise him; that is the player whose name is one of the first on the teamsheet as the pros to his game far outweighed the cons. I feel like he's lost a good amount of aura and personality and that he lacks confidence in himself and his game, directly compared to himself of and the pre-injury lore.
You often find that ball-playing CB's have a real desire to get on the ball and make things happen - demanding it off teammates and perpetually working angles for the less skilled to find them and have an easier out. Same principles that apply to playmakers in midfield, but not as pronounced as the truer ball-playing CB is rarer to come across. I don't know if it's the quagmire that the club is or his own delimiting factors that have Martinez not really show the same eagerness to get on the ball these days, but if he's to be tried in the middle, I feel as though he'd need to get his mojo back and give Amorim a tougher decision to make. You say they're not good arguments for the reason he doesn't get a chance at CCB, but if you're not great shakes defensively, you have to be pretty special offensively for a team to change things up for you and cover for your weaknesses in lieu of what you bring the table as recompense. I'll cite Trent here because he's probably the player at the forefront for this kind of thing in the current game. Liverpool cater for how poor a defender he is by doing everything in their power to facilitate his game on the offensive end and it mostly works a charm. Martinez isn't the defensive liability Trent is, but he's also not the second coming of Koeman to where a team simply must make the adjustments to allow him to do his thing.
Having said the above, we're such an appalling team that there's no harm in trying him there for a game or two, imo; it's not like we're pulling up trees as we are.
Two many injuries in a very short period, lots of changes with Erik and now with Amorin and lots of mates that are thicker than the Chinese Wall.
He looks quite annoyed and trying to play the part than BE the part.
PD: nevertheless he:
- would never be tall, nor pacey to play with such a shambolic all over the place Man Utd situation since time
- he would have his ocasional over the top confidence producing some silly mistake, without any reason, even in his best match
- he should drop the butcher over the top from moments to actually leave some shithousery on the lockeroom for more important and really tough situations.
Yeah, I think it's a shame and it's hard to tell if it's injuries or this club draining the life out of yet another player who came here with a certain swagger and sense of authority.
But what you've written is certainly plausible. I thought Lisandro would be our bedrock in terms of leadership and unshakeable nature, if I'm honest. Clearly, he's got his own game to focus on, let alone trying to lead others, and I also think that BE issue is also a strong factor; hard to BE if you feel like you're not able to live up to your own standards.
I'd agree he's definitely second guessing himself and has somewhat lost his timing of things (passing, tackling, closing down etc) but at the same time as I've said previously, whenever we are goal down or needing to put more pressure, he pretty much always step up with his ball carrying, passing and defensive reading no matter his form. Of course, most of our players play with more urgency and 'better' when we're chasing a goal (nothing new with our players under multiple managers) but I don't think many like Martinez, raise their overall game compared to moments in a game.
I think overall it's bit of a chicken and egg situation and where we fundamentally disagree. I believe he has it, has shown it, it's lying dormant somewhere and if passed that responsibility will step up to it. Also whilst I appreciate your example of comparing this to Trent's situation and that he's not a Koeman, I would add he's also not shown Maguire-meme-level defensive poor play. I think whilst he has some really bad moments (which unfortunately has lead to goal conceding examples) his overall defensive game has not been terrible when you look at the whole. Ok I know, I'm lowering the bar but I think the devil is in the details!
Anyways fantasy land is where this will most likely go but it was fun to hypothesise.
Indeed, even in these days, for instance that volley not long ago if he had scored would have work wonders.
...to the second point indeed too, he has been massacred by some mistakes, but some of them way out of proportion given that in the play there were not few times like 2 or 3 mistakes prior to his intervervention (or lack of it)... it's true that he has a knack to solve those situations and nowadays he is not doing the ultimate last dicth save. Being one of his trademarks in United, it gets more noticeable.
Yet the prior game to this last one, the way he first stops correctly in one of the goals to not loose sight and distance from "his" man and later when they are going to cross he let himself go and loose sight of his rival trying to anticipate some silly guess of a cross, was SILLY AS FVCK, that was a huge error of judgemnet, if he stayed like he did at first, he could have to the very least bother and the rival might not score. That was trully bizarre to watch from him.
Yeah outside of Ugarte, Amad and Mazraoui, who have all performed to a good and consistent standard thus far this season, personally, I think only Martinez has looked like he's on the cusp of figuring something out to get back to his old self. It's a very fine line because some games, you see enough to think 'he's finding rhythm' and then the next where he's made some critical mistakes.
I would also possibly very loosely include Dalot and Mainoo in that bracket. The former has been criticised correctly for his form and game but he's mostly been played out of position, where with the few times he's at RWB, he's done well. Mainoo has many deficiencies in his game but his close ball control is back and if he plays in a more compact setup, his ability can be useful; hopefully in one of the 10 positions now with Bruno and Ugarte suspended.
Actually maybe I might add Antony based on his sub appearances at RWB and de Ligt if he can play in consecutive games.
Everyone else for me either has too low a technical/physical level or overall game where I'm not confident they can play good enough consistently in this shower of mess.
Man Utd 0:2 Newcastle
New
Dogsh!t performance. He's not good enough anymore. No heart. Useless.
Too short. Too weak. Too slow.
You can get all the passing stats, but at the end of the day he can’t defend and nearly every game we concede goal is down to him.
Needs to be dropped definitely.
Too weak in the air, we know it already and its why we need players like Maguire and De Ligt. On this occasion Maguire is fighting with someone so Lisandro needs to defend the ball in the air on his own. Not a surprise that he's outjumped
However, on the ball he was our only player playing forward passes with any creativity, that had any success whatsoever and we sorely missed him when he went off.
However, on the ball he was our only player playing forward passes with any creativity, that had any success whatsoever and we sorely missed him when he went off.
Told you guys he's the most overrated player we've had since Herrera.
He’s vice captain now?
Defender who can't defend.
Yep - he's having an atrocious season and has become a problem.
Needs dropped indefinitely. Can't get away with a slow midget in the team when so many others are also lacking physically. Yoro has to start taking his minutes
Too slow, too small and too weak. Plays some nice passes but not much help when he can’t defend. Should be dropped.
He's a defender who can't defend. He's not the leader I thought he would be. Hugely disappointing signing.
I got so much abuse here when i said that last year. Guy gave us good half of season. And that is all.
Please end this ridiculous experiment of a 5ft CB in the PL.
Was always massively overrated.
Was always massively overrated.
Take him out of the team, he is too obvious a weakness to exploit in this system. With peak Shaw and Varane alongside him in a more compact back 4 a lot of his flaws were hidden, in this it is open season on him.
@criticalanalysis that lack of reading the game was on full display again. Before any physical limitations, the way he reads things is by far the biggest problem. It's why he is so often flat-footed or caught completely unawares losing his man, or not covering for others.
Just don't see what place he can occupy in a back 3.
Just don't see what place he can occupy in a back 3.
Mentality midget
Looking the worst of all our CB options. This formation does not even take advantage of his passing enough to justify his weaknesses. Should not be starting anymore.
Why are we trying to make this work. A tiny, slow CB.
No other club in the Prem is doing this.
No other club in the Prem is doing this.
Martinez vs Newcastle, this has to be remembered as one of the worst Old Trafford performances of all time.
His physical limitations were always going to hold him back somewhat but a really smart player could overcome them. His defending for the 1st goal and then him hanging around 10 yards in Newcastle's half and leaving an easy ball over the top to give Isak a 1 on 1 were just 2 examples of him being utterly inept in terms of reading of the game on top of his lack of height and pace.
I was reliably informed from the Caf he's one of the top 5 centre backs in world football.
He is having all his weaknesses exposed, and his main strength is hindered with limited bodies to pass to now.
He's never got going again since the WC, been a long time now. No longer has his edge to make up for his height disadvantage.
PL seems even more physical.
PL seems even more physical.
Shouldn't be starting, nevermind captaining the side.