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Just calling it deep was probably not the best wording. The match against Arsenal was very different than the one against pool. Mostly because we were a man down and therefor way more under pressure and there rather deep and more compact as a team. And thats not me saying that such conditions mean he can't be good, I am just saying when your team plays compact then it is obviously easier to defend as distances are closer and space is more congested. The conditions of the match played into the hands of the defenders which is why I think the performances of all the CBs have to be taken with a this context in the back of the head. Mainly because such conditions most likely aren't the go-to-conditions we want to see ourselves in.On the 2nd part, he played deep against Liverpool too which didnt stop him to venture into attack and also he had a number of forward passes, wasnt just glued to his CB position.
Which ones exactly?
He has been born way more often than he has been good this season, and probably in his time at the club now. I agree we need someone betterTop of my head since start of December. Was beaten at the near post by Dibley last night for Southampton's goal.
Left Isak unmarked for Newcastle's first a few weeks ago and was beaten in the air for Joelinton's 2nd.
Beaten in the air by Milinkovic for Forest's first goal. Watched Chris Wood's header loop past him into the net in same game.
Failed to close down Semenyo for Bournemouth's 3rd goal.
Cleared a ball straight to Kolosevski v Spurs for their 2nd. Allowed Solanke practically walk past him for Spurs 3rd.
That's 8 goals top of my head in the last 7 weeks or so where his errors, lack of pace or lack of height have been massive contributory factors to us conceding. Probably more if I go back to the start of the season.
Can you explain to me why you're happy with this?!
Personally, I'd like a better, faster, taller defender who might have prevented some, most of all of the above goals.
Which ones exactly?
As good as he is under pressure, and line-breaking passes, he will never ever be good enough defensively in this league. He doesn't have the physical tools for it and that won't change.
-Too short and small for aerial duels
-Weak in 1v1s
-Takes very small steps compared to someone like Maguire or Yoro, and doesn't have enough pace to compensate for it - can't cover big spaces quickly as a result of this which is crucial
-Doesn't read the game and anticipate danger nearly as well as it's often made out to be on here
-Can't pin down any physical attacker or agressively step into midfield from CCB to intercept passes well enough, in order to maintain the high line
I'm not sure there are many, if any defenders out there who can outpass him, or are as press-resistant as him with the ball, as I stated above, but he's a liability when we don't have the ball and the trade-off isn't worth it.
The only real aspect there that can be talk as a disadvantage it's the first one.
The rest? it ain't as black or white in comparison with the rest of the defenders in the team or out there that would also face challenges from time to time. We can make a compilation of him being great in all those type of situations and we can pin out an example where he wasn't as great. Same with Rolls Royce Harry, or anyone today and in the history of the game.
PD: The small steps it's quite silly, also using Yoro who still doesn't have enough time in the team and Maguire as examples of being some sort of Van de Ven type of players it's to the very least non accurate at all.
PD2: At the end of the day, being so nitpicking with Martinez, while at the same time in this last game Harry receives a ball, controls it with his chest and directly sent it like a home run to the stands but yeap he is a Rolls Royce of a player.
I dunno, this day to day perfomances threads has a tendency to always trying to find a mistake, even if it wasn't there, or it's a part of a more collective one than merely individual.
Or even with a real player deficiency, or mistake, take that to the extreme. I recall talking about sthg similar in the Ramus thread, where it was stated that he didn't make any run and even if he didn't play well, it wasn't true, yet it's like most of this type of threads tend to develope.
On the other side, to make an hiperbole of sthg great done with the player in question it's also pretty common...as a sum, the majority of them have become too much toxic and agenda driven for any side of the coin.
Not sure there's a point in bringing up Maguire. I've acknowledged it about him too that he's not the most mobile or pacey defender, and he isn't great at covering big spaces either...but he has almost everything you'd want in a class CCB, especially in a back 3...whether you're sitting deep, defending your box, or try to play on the front foot and sustain a high line: because contrary to popular opinion, Maguire is actually one of those players that make it much easier for the team to play a high line, and he's definitely not a "liability" and "unsuited" to such a defensive setup. He pins down opposition attackers, even if they're very physical, wins most of his aerial duels with ease, organizes his defense around him to a good standard, reads the game and danger well, and is also able to get stuck in and intercept opposition passes which nullifies a lot of threat because the pass won't even reach the intended target from the opposition. What Maguire needs to be able to execute all these CCB duties to a good level is protection around him, meaning 2 pacey CBs who can defend the channels and cover up for Maguire's biggest flaw. But that's how most defenses are set up when you have a slower CB in the centre. Dias at City isn't fast either, but he's always protected by the likes of Walker, Akanji, Aké, and Gvardiol. De Ligt was protected by Upamecano and Kim Min-jae at Bayern. I'm sure there are other examples too.
Martínez doesn't really possess much, if anything that a wide CB needs to have out of possession. When we have the ball, he's one of our most important assets, but like I said, I don't think it's worth planning with him for the long-term due to his defensive inefficiencies. He also can't do the bolded part from my previous paragraph, which also makes him unsuited to play CCB over Maguire and probably even de Ligt.
Also, why is the small steps argument a silly one? Yoro, in his limited playing minutes so far, has already solved multiple difficult situations with a long-reaching tackle, simply because his physical profile (his long limbs in these specific situations) allowed him to. The tackles on Trossard in our own box in the league game vs Arsenal, the tackle on Darwin Núnez in the Liverpool game, and even yesterday he could've nullified Sulemana a few times but he made a few individual mistakes because he's 19 with not enough experience at this level. Martínez is just simply not capable of these actions that I'm talking about, because he's too small, too weak, and has too short limbs for a Premier League centre-back.
If we were still playing with a back 4 and inverted full-back, I'd value him as an important player for both the present and future, because he could play that LCB/LB role to an excellent level and his line-breaking passes would be a big asset to the team both from the LB area or when he inverts into the midfield. The only requirement he would need in that scenario, much like Maguire, is a pacey CB like Yoro at LCB, to protect him when he's 1v1 against a pacey winger or when a ball gets played behind him and he gets outpaced by the opposition winger. However, I don't see a real place for him in Amorim's back 3 system and even though I like the player and his tenacious mentality, he will just eventually become "deadwood" at United if Amorim is here to stay for the long-term. His best performances under the new head coach have come in games where we defended deep and our defensive line wasn't exploited by quick breaks from the opposition...but that's not the long-term approach we'll be building towards and there shouldn't be many games per season where we have to continually defend our own box very deep throughout the game.
I'm not being nitpicky with Martínez and trying to find mistakes in every action he makes. I'm simply pointing out that there are things he simply cannot do and that will never change, because players can't outgrow their physical profiles. And a lot of those things he cannot do are non-negotiable requirements for a team wanting to dominate their opponents and play a high defensive line.
PS: Van de Ven has the best top speed in the league, but he never really impressed me with his mobility or acceleration. I never saw him as way above average in those two aspects of his game...which probably means he's not as valuable as the masses think he is when he needs to cover for a slower teammate or eat up space quickly...but having a crazy top speed and being a really good progressive carrier of the ball still make him a valuable CB...just not a world beater.
Some of those goals are his fault, some are not, like Souhampton game or him watching a ball loop past him or allowing a player walk past him. I get the goals in which he was beaten in the air but the rest seem like you're trying to find more stuff to blame him for.Top of my head since start of December. Was beaten at the near post by Dibley last night for Southampton's goal.
Left Isak unmarked for Newcastle's first a few weeks ago and was beaten in the air for Joelinton's 2nd.
Beaten in the air by Milinkovic for Forest's first goal. Watched Chris Wood's header loop past him into the net in same game.
Failed to close down Semenyo for Bournemouth's 3rd goal.
Cleared a ball straight to Kolosevski v Spurs for their 2nd. Allowed Solanke practically walk past him for Spurs 3rd.
That's 8 goals top of my head in the last 7 weeks or so where his errors, lack of pace or lack of height have been massive contributory factors to us conceding. Probably more if I go back to the start of the season.
Can you explain to me why you're happy with this?!
Personally, I'd like a better, faster, taller defender who might have prevented some, most or all of the above goals.
But even if Shaw is fit, it just means he would be injured in the near future, so you can’t build around him. Fully fit Shaw could be a better option than Martinez, but that’s pure theoryBe interesting to see where Shaw plays when he’s fit. I think he would do a better job than Martinez in the CBL role.
Some of those goals are his fault, some are not, like Souhampton game or him watching a ball loop past him or allowing a player walk past him. I get the goals in which he was beaten in the air but the rest seem like you're trying to find more stuff to blame him for.
This is a great post and sums up my thoughts on Martinez. I think people are really blinding themselves to the fact he does not have the profile you’d want out of possession for one of the wide CBs - even putting aside his performances this season.Not sure there's a point in bringing up Maguire. I've acknowledged it about him too that he's not the most mobile or pacey defender, and he isn't great at covering big spaces either...but he has almost everything you'd want in a class CCB, especially in a back 3...whether you're sitting deep, defending your box, or try to play on the front foot and sustain a high line: because contrary to popular opinion, Maguire is actually one of those players that make it much easier for the team to play a high line, and he's definitely not a "liability" and "unsuited" to such a defensive setup. He pins down opposition attackers, even if they're very physical, wins most of his aerial duels with ease, organizes his defense around him to a good standard, reads the game and danger well, and is also able to get stuck in and intercept opposition passes which nullifies a lot of threat because the pass won't even reach the intended target from the opposition. What Maguire needs to be able to execute all these CCB duties to a good level is protection around him, meaning 2 pacey CBs who can defend the channels and cover up for Maguire's biggest flaw. But that's how most defenses are set up when you have a slower CB in the centre. Dias at City isn't fast either, but he's always protected by the likes of Walker, Akanji, Aké, and Gvardiol. De Ligt was protected by Upamecano and Kim Min-jae at Bayern. I'm sure there are other examples too.
Martínez doesn't really possess much, if anything that a wide CB needs to have out of possession. When we have the ball, he's one of our most important assets, but like I said, I don't think it's worth planning with him for the long-term due to his defensive inefficiencies. He also can't do the bolded part from my previous paragraph, which also makes him unsuited to play CCB over Maguire and probably even de Ligt.
Also, why is the small steps argument a silly one? Yoro, in his limited playing minutes so far, has already solved multiple difficult situations with a long-reaching tackle, simply because his physical profile (his long limbs in these specific situations) allowed him to. The tackles on Trossard in our own box in the league game vs Arsenal, the tackle on Darwin Núnez in the Liverpool game, and even yesterday he could've nullified Sulemana a few times but he made a few individual mistakes because he's 19 with not enough experience at this level. Martínez is just simply not capable of these actions that I'm talking about, because he's too small, too weak, and has too short limbs for a Premier League centre-back. Take a look at Solanke’s second goal against us in the League Cup game. Martínez was easily pushed away and he was too weak to deal with him. Yoro or another athletic CB could’ve stopped him from taking a shot or at least put enough pressure on him that he can’t even cut in onto his right foot and take an accurate shot.
If we were still playing with a back 4 and inverted full-backs, I'd value him as an important player for both the present and future, because he could play that LCB/LB role to an excellent level and his line-breaking passes would be a big asset to the team both from the LB area or when he inverts into the midfield. He could basically play the same role Zinchenko played at Arsenal in his first season there. It’s no coincidence that Arteta wanted to sign Martínez probably over Zinchenko in that same summer. The only requirement he would need in that role, much like Maguire at CB, is a pacey player like Yoro at LCB, to protect him when he's 1v1 against a pacey winger or when a ball gets played behind him and he gets outpaced by the opposition winger. However, I don't see a real place for him in Amorim's back 3 system and even though I like the player and his tenacious mentality, he will just eventually become "deadwood" at United if Amorim is here to stay for the long-term. His best performances under the new head coach have come in games where we defended deep and our defensive line wasn't exploited by quick breaks from the opposition...but that's not the long-term approach we'll be building towards and there shouldn't be many games per season where we have to continually defend our own box very deep throughout the game.
I'm not being nitpicky with Martínez and trying to find mistakes in every action he makes. I'm simply pointing out that there are things he simply cannot do and that will never change, because players can't outgrow their physical profiles. And a lot of those things he cannot do are non-negotiable requirements for a team wanting to dominate their opponents and play a high defensive line.
PS: Van de Ven has the best top speed in the league, but he never really impressed me with his mobility or acceleration. I never saw him as way above average in those two aspects of his game...which probably means he's not as valuable as the masses think he is when he needs to cover for a slower teammate or eat up space quickly...but having a crazy top speed and being a really good progressive carrier of the ball still make him a valuable CB...just not a world beater.
You are completely right that every player makes mistakes arguably on a regular basis. I wasn't trying to say Martínez has never managed to solve a situation in a high line or hasn't done great bits of box defending in a United shirt. However, if you put of our CBs into specific challenging situations let's say 100 times each, I do believe Martínez wouldn't be able to deal with them as many times as a Yoro or a Mazraoui would from wide CB. Same thing would be true compared to Maguire at CCB.The thread itself it's nitpicking, every perfomance thread seems to be these days.
That Martinez can't anticipate, doesn't have a 1 v 1, that he hasn't enough pace but the others in the team do, it's simply not true.
Yet of course he'll be dribble, he will fail an anticipation or not even try it, etc...but these sort of stuff is normall on any team and player. It's not that Martinez never does them or never succeed in such situations, even in the air without being Ayala, Passarella or Cannavaro hanging there, he ain't that terrible.
In fact the defense as a whole, must get their act together specially in dead ball situations so that every player involved (not just defenders plus obviously the keeper himself) faces those in an adecuate way.
Of course setups, trainings, matches together will gell or not a team to function better and this is more vital than anything else, way more than the always silly "he ain't for this league" type of remark. Football it's football everywhere and it's more important to adapt to your team and COACH than anything else, even if some League at some point can be regarded as the best.
I've seen the best defenders ever struggling when their teams simply can play as a team and find their best form (well even when their teams are in good form too, shyte happens). United is in that process trying to become a team with some identity, BTW to think that from now it would be just one system or Amorin will be forever it's also quite a bet.
In the particular case of Martinez, individually, leaving everything else aside also, the main thing right now it's for him to get properly fit. Just the prior match to this last one he got another knock. If not it will be a roller coaster in terms of him comitting in his best agressive self that United needs like water.
Later it's the team itself to find the proper partners all over the pitch to have a better chemistry, order and closer lines to not deal with so many players all over the pitch facing very disadvantage situations, on the defensive side of the game and even on the offensive one.
Things prior to this last game were getting tighter, let's hope that still continues that way.
PD: I brought Harry as a pun, because if someone sees him as a Roll Royce of a Player, yet finds so many failures in others, it's a bit to the very least strange or biased. Not because Harry deserves to be trash or anything like that.
PD2: the "masses", Rojito come on, cut the crap with the I'm the only one seeing it, it's just a forum, everyone has its own view, no one here is Delem, Zagallo, Cornejo, Menotti, Pekerman, Chapman, Grohs, De Visser...etc etc
This is a great post and sums up my thoughts on Martinez. I think people are really blinding themselves to the fact he does not have the profile you’d want out of possession for one of the wide CBs - even putting aside his performances this season.
You are completely right that every player makes mistakes arguably on a regular basis. I wasn't trying to say Martínez has never managed to solve a situation in a high line or hasn't done great bits of box defending in a United shirt. However, if you put of our CBs into specific challenging situations let's say 100 times each, I do believe Martínez wouldn't be able to deal with them as many times as a Yoro or a Mazraoui would from wide CB. Same thing would be true compared to Maguire at CCB.
He has been having some up and downs physically and that affected his game and also he would always be sometimes excessivly confident in ocassions that can lead to some silly relaxation, yet I do not conccuur that Yoro, Maz would absolutely deal better than him any defensive task on any role in the back four.
Also he played quite a lot of times his current role, yet with teams that were a lot more cohesive, tighter and with other profile of mids involved. This is some of the main issues for Man Utd till they get their act together and would affect any defender in the world right now or in the past. Till Man Utd does not properly resolve its issues in the middle and even also be more deadly in its finishing, every defending situation will feel ten times worse to deal and be over analyzed in consequence.
Anyway, perfomance therads (all of them) have become too toxic for my taste, don't think I'll be bothering here anytime soon again.
I agree but I don't think anything I said was toxic. I acknowledged him as a very good player but like you said it's not black and white. Being a very good player doesn't automatically mean he's suited for any role in any system.
He suits that position on the left gives him the freedom to step up and influence the game at times. Someone else who will have a shot in space certainly isn't a bad thing.
On the ball yes….
The amount of space that he is expected to martial off the ball in this system gives me heartburn though.
A fast right winger willing to stay high, and he is instantly in trouble.
Good game tonight though when facing no threat in behind
On the ball yes….
The amount of space that he is expected to martial off the ball in this system gives me heartburn though.
A fast right winger willing to stay high, and he is instantly in trouble.
Good game tonight though when facing no threat in behind
That should get better in time, it's a combination of issues causing that. We should be higher, the DM should be helping him and the back line has to get better at shifting across.
I also thought that maybe from next season, if Ugarte can't play he could sometimes play as the destroyer in CM.Have mentioned it before but can we use him as a DM to spray those passes?
