[redNATION]

He’s one I don’t think should be in our starting 11 but another team like Juve, Inter or even Real might pay good money for, for that reason we should be looking to move him on and get a replacement who is tall, fast and strong to sit alongside Yoro and de Ligt.

 

[Fortitude]

Everyone is going in on Martinez now and it's fair game but I'm not sure I would agree with the bolded. His main issues right now as you've highlighted are his lack of incision with his passing in that LCB position, tackling, management of open space and aerials on set pieces. In the middle just like his days in a back four, he's shown more than good enough qualities imo. The issue is whether it's good enough Amorim and whether he'll get a chance there.

In open play, Martinez is smart at influencing aerials so that the opponent doesn't do much/can't direct it well. When the play is in front of him, his anticipation and aggressive tackling can work because he'll be in the central areas of the pitch i.e the two wide CBs will be mostly dealing with the first defensive actions in the channels. He's a good box defender (despite recent showings) and covers well just outside of the penalty area; his inconsistency is mostly in the wider areas. The only consistent issue I have with him in that CCB role is aerials on set pieces.

It's gamble but one worth trying imo because de Ligt or Maguire aren't exactly perfect themselves.

Mazraoui, Martinez and Shaw? Super small but not like we're winning any aerials from set pieces right now anyways but that's a pretty good back three on the ball. I'd have Ugarte and Casemiro in front of them with Dalot as RWB. The latter two have good height and jumping power so along with Hojlund (if Amorim tells him, he can actually jump upwards and not just from the same spot) would help mitigate some of the aerial situations.

I don't know about "now" as the issues and concern about him has gone from rather muted to mild to unsure to now a serious concern and that has been in a back 4, before the 3-man system and Amorim arrived at the club. It's more been moments in games in the past; moments that sometimes produce the lapses that are costly, but lapses nonetheless. In the 3-man system, what's different is they're not lapses anymore and if the player he is and has been was the one we got when initially purchasing him, there'd be almost unanimous concurrence that we made a bad purchase. His first season, before the injury, is where he is given leeway and has the credit in the back that would buy him the time and perseverance.

Your CCB is supposed to be your calmest and best reader and organiser. For me, we don't have an optimal CCB at the club unless you can put Evans in a time capsule and take him back to the self he used to be in his 20's and early 30's. Outside of him, it's a sliding scale of most decent fit to worst fit. Martinez is too rash, too clumsy and just not positionally sound enough for the role. We can talk about the benefits, particularly with playing out from there, but first and foremost you want a solid and trustworthy foil to the two proactive flanking L/R CB's.

Height just isn't the factor that it is talked about as being, for me, certainly not in isolation, anyway. It compounds when the positioning and/or athleticism is bad and worsens still if the short guy doesn't have a specialist niche to his defensive skill set i.e. assured in what he's doing 1on1 because of A, B or C. Baresi is only 5' 9" yet is often classed as the best CB of all time (duelling it out with Nesta, Moore and Maldini in particular in terms of the big/renowned names - otherwise the likes of Figueroa, Kohler and so forth enter the fray), but if you ever watch games of his, the intuitive reading of the game and what to do at all times is like no other. You don't need to use such lofty names to make a point about this as it's par for the course amongst great, short(er) CB's that they just know what to do and where they are supposed to be at a rate that it is a template for others to follow. Ayala, Thiago Silva, Cannavaro, Cordoba and so on were so much better at reading play than most around them that their height was not on the table for discussion outside of trivia questions in pubs - problem here is all of those players were renowned for freakishly great elements to their physical capability, particularly leaping, which kills height concerns almost immediately. Martinez doesn't have this in his locker, which is why how tall he is continues to be a hot topic, particularly on corners.

If Martinez was better positionally and particularly if he had that salmon-leap in his locker, you'd not hear a peep about how tall he is every two seconds. I should also point out that an ancient Thiago Silva - who was a literal decade and a half off his prime - showed what being undersized and superb looks like in this very league Martinez is referred as being too short for. I guarantee you if he [Martinez] read the game like Thiago Silva, it wouldn't be a conversation. The same goes for any of the lesser names above - you give Martinez their reading of the game and his thread would look very different (even if he isn't the athlete any of them are). Hell, you don't need to even leave the club to show what superior reading of the game in a short CB looks like as Shaw is never spoken about as too small when he plays the exact same position despite being negligibly taller than Martinez himself.

To the bolded. He is extremely consistent with the things he isn't good at. You can set your watch by them, even, which is why it's prudent to target him to get the expected mistakes he'll make when isolated, and that's the problem with the 3-man backline; there are going to be a lot more times when you're on your own and have to duel 1on1. The guy in the middle has an even greater set of responsibilities as that's the person you're relying on to sweep up after others or be proactive and certain enough as the loose man to know exactly what should be done in the corridors of uncertainty that specifically call out their reading of play.

Never mind my whittering on; the proof of the pudding is whether Amorim even looks to try Martinez in the middle of the 3. He hasn't thus far, and that might well be because Shaw isn't fit... or, it might be that he simply doesn't see Martinez as capable of fulfilling the prerequisites for it. I know which one I think it is.

 

[Fortitude]

The fans at Real and Barca demand more. They are always expected to win the title and challenge in Europe. I however do agree that he'll be less hurried on the ball

At those clubs, the midfield matrix as well as the quality of the attacks ensure CB's spend much less time defending or on the backfoot than they do at looking at ways to influence the game offensively and penetratively. The better a team is at attacking, the more they can focus on influencing play from the backline - it's the reason someone like Trent has gotten away with being a "FB" for a career despite being called a defensive liability for the majority of his time as a pro.

Martinez is going to be in his element in any team that has him influencing games with his passing and certainty when it comes to using the ball. We're a really bad fit when it comes to this due to the sheer amount of times we're defending or not in control of games over 90 minutes.

Could easily see Martinez going to either club and thriving... probably leading to people bemoaning why he couldn't do the same here.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I don't know about "now" as the issues and concern about him has gone from rather muted to mild to unsure to now a serious concern and that has been in a back 4, before the 3-man system and Amorim arrived at the club. It's more been moments in games in the past; moments that sometimes produce the lapses that are costly, but lapses nonetheless. In the 3-man system, what's different is they're not lapses anymore and if the player he is and has been was the one we got when initially purchasing him, there'd be almost unanimous concurrence that we made a bad purchase. His first season, before the injury, is where he is given leeway and has the credit in the back that would buy him the time and perseverance.

Your CCB is supposed to be your calmest and best reader and organiser. For me, we don't have an optimal CCB at the club unless you can put Evans in a time capsule and take him back to the self he used to be in his 20's and early 30's. Outside of him, it's a sliding scale of most decent fit to worst fit. Martinez is too rash, too clumsy and just not positionally sound enough for the role. We can talk about the benefits, particularly with playing out from there, but first and foremost you want a solid and trustworthy foil to the two proactive flanking L/R CB's.

Height just isn't the factor that it is talked about as being, for me, certainly not in isolation, anyway. It compounds when the positioning and/or athleticism is bad and worsens still if the short guy doesn't have a specialist niche to his defensive skill set i.e. assured in what he's doing 1on1 because of A, B or C. Baresi is only 5' 9" yet is often classed as the best CB of all time (duelling it out with Nesta, Moore and Maldini in particular in terms of the big/renowned names - otherwise the likes of Figueroa, Kohler and so forth enter the fray), but if you ever watch games of his, the intuitive reading of the game and what to do at all times is like no other. You don't need to use such lofty names to make a point about this as it's par for the course amongst great, short(er) CB's that they just know what to do and where they are supposed to be at a rate that it is a template for others to follow. Ayala, Thiago Silva, Cannavaro, Cordoba and so on were so much better at reading play than most around them that their height was not on the table for discussion outside of trivia questions in pubs - problem here is all of those players were renowned for freakishly great elements to their physical capability, particularly leaping, which kills height concerns almost immediately. Martinez doesn't have this in his locker, which is why how tall he is continues to be a hot topic, particularly on corners.

If Martinez was better positionally and particularly if he had that salmon-leap in his locker, you'd not hear a peep about how tall he is every two seconds. I should also point out that an ancient Thiago Silva - who was a literal decade and a half off his prime - showed what being undersized and superb looks like in this very league Martinez is referred as being too short for. I guarantee you if he [Martinez] read the game like Thiago Silva, it wouldn't be a conversation. The same goes for any of the lesser names above - you give Martinez their reading of the game and his thread would look very different (even if he isn't the athlete any of them are). Hell, you don't need to even leave the club to show what superior reading of the game in a short CB looks like as Shaw is never spoken about as too small when he plays the exact same position despite being negligibly taller than Martinez himself.

To the bolded. He is extremely consistent with the things he isn't good at. You can set your watch by them, even, which is why it's prudent to target him to get the expected mistakes he'll make when isolated, and that's the problem with the 3-man backline; there are going to be a lot more times when you're on your own and have to duel 1on1. The guy in the middle has an even greater set of responsibilities as that's the person you're relying on to sweep up after others or be proactive and certain enough as the loose man to know exactly what should be done in the corridors of uncertainty that specifically call out their reading of play.

Never mind my whittering on; the proof of the pudding is whether Amorim even looks to try Martinez in the middle of the 3. He hasn't thus far, and that might well be because Shaw isn't fit... or, it might be that he simply doesn't see Martinez as capable of fulfilling the prerequisites for it. I know which one I think it is.

Three main general things to address. First being that my original post was a temporary 'why not try it' for the current season because I believe the potential positives outweigh the negatives. Secondly, I don't disagree Martinez has some serious concerns with regards to his form and weaknesses. Thirdly, as for the bolded, I think whilst he has been inconsistent, I don't think his weaknesses are consistent at all i.e it really depends on his form. He was having some really good games even just over a month or so ago (under ETH, Ruud and even some Amorim games) where his anticipation, defensive reading of the game and passing was good enough where some were saying he looked like the Martinez of old (first season).

Before I delve any deeper though, I'm not saying he's the best person there and that I'm advocating for him long term at the CCB position. I simply believe there is some 'untapped' potential because I think his weaknesses are exacerbated out wide in the channels. He is rash at times but most of those incidents IIRC are when he's pressing high into midfield or making reckless tackles both of which I don't think he's particularly consistently bad at. Also I believe he's a player than thrives with responsibility because he's often our best player at the back when it comes to beating a press, driving with the ball or playing incisive passes when we behind and the stakes are higher. I actually think he's decent at reading the defensive situations when the ball in solely in front of him (e.g which we've seen when he's in a back four) and whilst I don't think he's elite at the organising, I don't think any of our other defenders can lay a claim close to that anyways. Perhaps de Ligt can show that when given time and games under his belt with us.

TLDR: I know Martinez isn't a Thiago Silva, I just don't think Maguire or what de Ligt has shown thus far is anything worth blindly pursuing with simply because of their physical profile and would argue their weaknesses are hindering us as much as a Martinez is in the LCB position. The difference is that the Argentine has game influencing ability, which is imo being underutilised. My hypothetical is a long shot though and I acknowledge that. Maybe we'll revisit ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶, if it happens and he does well