[Crackers]

Why do we keep picking slow small CBs that have good technical ability but can't actually defend? Sell him while his stock his high.

 

[Marwood]

Martinez defending crosses is just a waste of time.

The fact that our 6 foot giants Maguire and De Ligt can't defend those crosses and leaves it to him is probably more criminal.

They don't leave it to him. Teams target him and rightly so. Amazed it didn't happen sooner.

If you're crossing from the left, you put it towards our back stick because that's where Martinez is.

 

[CM]

Martinez has been really awful for the last month. He needs dropping for his own sake for the match at Anfield

 

[Skills]

Why do we keep picking slow small CBs that have good technical ability but can't actually defend? Sell him while his stock his high.

So 2 summers ago?

 

[Godfather]

So bad at the moment it's quite tragic

 

[always_hoping]

Needs a spell on bench to sort out his head. Regular lapses in concentration and if he starts against Liverpool and he'll be responsible for a couple of goals again.

 

[Crackers]

So 2 summers ago?

If we ever invent a time machine I'm using it to break a few legs

 

[Its all gone Shane Long]

Aggressive player and goes into tackles very hard which I love in a defender when they get it right, but he’s been getting it wrong a lot lately and with his height issue, what does he offer? He’s not a leader based off these past few months, wasn’t great in a four, looks totally lost in a 3.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Seems to have lost his aggression and bite.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

His first season performances were overrated IMO. Even then, he's regressed a lot since.

 

[Skills]

His first season performances were overrated IMO. Even then, he's regressed a lot since.

Yup. People just ignore that he was in a defence that conceded, 6 goals & 7 goals. Got hooked after the 4th vs Brentford too.

 

[GlazersHater]

If we can get 30M for him we should sell. He's awful in a 3 at the back, and had been poor with a back 4 as well for over a season.

Too much of a liability in open spaces, too weak and slow plus he's a liability in the air.

As high regarded as he is for his passing it doesn't nearly make up for his deficiencies.

Still an Argentinian international so we should be able to move him relatively easy.

 

[arthurka]

Absolute travesty putting him in the team Vs Newcastle with 8 players over 6'3 he has absolutely no chance these days Vs these.

 

[Dominos]

Martinez defending crosses is just a waste of time.

The fact that our 6 foot giants Maguire and De Ligt can't defend those crosses and leaves it to him is probably more criminal.

They can't cover the entire pitch.

They have other players to mark and can't just abandon their zones and leave giant gaps because their centre back partner can't do the basics of what a centre back is meant to do.

 

[sammyhol]

Exposed by a system that doesn’t play to his strengths.

Same as Bruno.

Same as Rashford

Same as Casemiro

Same as Dalot

Same Mainoo

And on and on and on.

I’m not saying that the players do not have a responsibility to perform better… but they are limited in their capabilities, whether that be physical, technical, or tactical. They are mainly pretty specialist to the systems where they can thrive.

For Martinez that is clearly as part of a compact, deep back 4, where he has no open space either side of him to expose his lack of pace, where he can steal the ball in congested areas with aggressive front foot tackling, and where he can spring counter attacks with his line splitting passes

I could write a similar paragraph for all the other players mentioned.

I just can’t get my head around how ETH seemingly semi-cracked it with a system that worked for most of the squad in season one… then ripped it up for something that didn’t.

And now we are just seeing more of the same…

When was the only time over the last few months we had a steady run? Under Ruud.

Why? Square pegs, square holes. Managers don’t half over complicate things.

 

[Fortitude]

If he had reacted early, like a proper defender with good instincts, he could have put a challenge in, in my opinion.

Yep. It's his biggest failing by far, imo. Even if you're tiny, if you're positioned expertly the ref more than likely calls a foul if that attacker simply bumbles into or through you, but if you're never where you're supposed to be, that's not a concern, which is what we're seeing more than ever with the system switch.

I really don't remember him being an aerial liability in his first season, but it's clear as day now. It's a bit sad, because he has some really good qualities, but I just don't see how he fits into this system anywhere other than CB.

He's lost his spring, aerial timing and he's not as physically strong as he used to be either. He might have been small, but he was very solid and robust pre-injury, perhaps overzealous with it, even. He's now a small guy with a small leap and seemingly no aerial timing, on top of that, he now gets bullied a lot in tussles.

He's been Space Jam'd from what he was to what he is now. The player he has been for some time now is a liability defensively.

 

[Fortitude]

Indefensible game from him tonight and I knew this would come back to bite me. I will caveat by saying let's be honest here and say that this isn't his 'norm' though with regards to reading the flight of the ball or aerials in the box. You could argue it is based on his current past 12-18 months and that's fair, although I'll disagree (even if it is becoming harder by the game..).

Doesn't really change what I had proposed though. Maguire and de Ligt not really affecting the game aerially, off or on the ball. All three of them wasn't good enough and haven't been this season.

But as I said before, you shuffle him across and he still gets targeted, just in different, worse ways, given the responsibility of the CCB to be the thread that knits the backline together either side of him. You have to remember, even if all of them are the same poor in the air or at meeting the ball, it's Martinez who is immediately at the bottom of the pile for being the smallest and meekest of them, so he, by default, has to be better than the others just to meet the bar they have by being the size they are.

I really hope he doesn't feature vs Liverpool; he'll be targeted and roasted relentlessly.

 

[soapythecat]

I’m at the point of thinking he should be moved in the CM maybe? Less of a liability and a huge asset passing wise. Pace becomes a problem again though. If he stays against Liverpool we are shipping double digits.

 

[Doracle]

That Isak chance when he decided to bizarrely try and chip Onana highlighted just how slow Martinez now is. If you look at the clip both Maguire and Martinez are sprinting back and you can see how much visibly faster Maguire is as he tries everything to close Isak down. It’s just impossible to carry someone as slow and physically lacking as Martinez in defence sadly.

 

[Ekeke]

That Isak chance when he decided to bizarrely try and chip Onana highlighted just how slow Martinez now is. If you look at the clip both Maguire and Martinez are sprinting back and you can see how much visibly faster Maguire is as he tries everything to close Isak down. It’s just impossible to carry someone as slow and physically lacking as Martinez in defence sadly.

Maguire is sprinting because hes the man who can get there to put some pressure on, having started 10 yards deeper. Lisandro is just trying to get back in case supporting players come into play. He isnt sprinting because he has no chance of catching up to Isak and hes seen Maguire is back to confront him. De Ligt gets back at the same speed as Lisandro.

 

[Shady]

He is a major problem.

 

[Ekeke]

A compounding issue on Lisandro in the air for the 2nd goal is that it was a midfield runner joining the attack. Eriksen is the man pottering about outside the box as Joelinton joins the attack. Lisandro and Eriksen are never going to win a header against the taller opponent. If it was Casemiro instead of Eriksen he would have had a chance, but it was the left sided DM position. Having Eriksen and Lisandro on the same side left us open to that so Casemiro should have been deployed left side.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

Half the player since the injuries. Also feels like he’s down tools somewhat since his mate ETH left. Looks as flat as a pancake on the pitch now under Amorim.

 

[Matt851]

Exposed by a system that doesn’t play to his strengths.

Same as Bruno.

Same as Rashford

Same as Casemiro

Same as Dalot

Same Mainoo

And on and on and on.

I’m not saying that the players do not have a responsibility to perform better… but they are limited in their capabilities, whether that be physical, technical, or tactical. They are mainly pretty specialist to the systems where they can thrive.

For Martinez that is clearly as part of a compact, deep back 4, where he has no open space either side of him to expose his lack of pace, where he can steal the ball in congested areas with aggressive front foot tackling, and where he can spring counter attacks with his line splitting passes

I could write a similar paragraph for all the other players mentioned.

I just can’t get my head around how ETH seemingly semi-cracked it with a system that worked for most of the squad in season one… then ripped it up for something that didn’t.

And now we are just seeing more of the same…

When was the only time over the last few months we had a steady run? Under Ruud.

Why? Square pegs, square holes. Managers don’t half over complicate things.

Ten hag didn't semi crack it. We had a good run of form but were terrible after the cup final and that season was really poor in terms of the quality of teams.

Claiming ruud did well because he had a few easy games isnalso pretty fanciful

We might be slightly better with a back 4 but would stoll be bad. Martinez had a good 6 months but has since been injured or a liability and clearly isn't someone any top 6 team would play at centre back

 

[criticalanalysis]

But as I said before, you shuffle him across and he still gets targeted, just in different, worse ways, given the responsibility of the CCB to be the thread that knits the backline together either side of him. You have to remember, even if all of them are the same poor in the air or at meeting the ball, it's Martinez who is immediately at the bottom of the pile for being the smallest and meekest of them, so he, by default, has to be better than the others just to meet the bar they have by being the size they are.

I really hope he doesn't feature vs Liverpool; he'll be targeted and roasted relentlessly.

It's splitting hairs at the moment but both goals weren't exactly much to do with his height, size or strength imo. It was just inexplicably passive reading of the game and the non-challenges. He was already in a good position to affect both goals but just didn't challenge early or strong enough, hence why I said this isn't his 'norm'. Regardless, it's not good enough and he deserves every criticism.

As for Liverpool, I'm not sure I have faith in any of our defenders if Amorim sets us up in the same way. I would have had some confidence in Dalot coming up against Salah but his form is tanking week in, week out being played out on the left and even Mazraoui has mistakes creeping into his game more regularly. Forget de Ligt and Maguire up against Jota/Salah. However, I doubt Amorim can or will have us playing the same way; it'll have to be a defensive most of our players behind the ball job. That's been our proven go-to for results and performances so if there's any solace for the weekend, that's the only slimmer of light I can see.

 

[sammyhol]

Ten hag didn't semi crack it. We had a good run of form but were terrible after the cup final and that season was really poor in terms of the quality of teams.

Claiming ruud did well because he had a few easy games isnalso pretty fanciful

We might be slightly better with a back 4 but would stoll be bad. Martinez had a good 6 months but has since been injured or a liability and clearly isn't someone any top 6 team would play at centre back

Just listen to the quotes about him at the time though… it was all the complete opposite.

And I’m not even necessarily disagreeing with you about the other top 6 teams… my point is simply about playing to the strengths of players… my points on Martinez stand in that regard.

It’s no different in that Rashford has only ever looked consistently good in a counter focused side, running on to play from the left, with an overlapping FB

It’s no different that Bruno has only ever looked consistently in a free role 10 with runners to release either side.

It’s no different that Casemiro looked better when we defended deep and compact to limit the amount of open ground he has to cover

It’s no different that Dalot only ever looks consistent as a traditional, overlapping RB

It just so happens that a lot of our team is suited to the system that ETH stumbled on after those first 2 terrible losses in season one.

Amorim can have as many training sessions as he wants. Rashford isn’t going to become competent at intricate build up. Casemiro and Martinez aren’t going to suddenly become more athletic. Dalot isn’t going to become a left winger.

The only players you can make a good argument for as potentially being better suited to this system are Amad, Ugarte, and maybe Maz at a push at RCB… but I’d argue he would be equally good as a traditional FB as seen under ETH.

Are we going to sign 10 new players to make this system work?

 

[Rojofiam]

We need to scam Atletico with both him and Garnacho. They love to bite for these type of negative value expensive deals like Álvarez, Félix or Lemar.

 

[Shane88]

Any other teams out there running a 4'2 centre back?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

His first season performances were overrated IMO. Even then, he's regressed a lot since.

They clearly were.

There were people on here saying he was the best CB in the league.

@Revan 's assessment of him was pretty spot on.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We need to scam Atletico with both him and Garnacho. They love to bite for these type of negative value expensive deals like Álvarez, Félix or Lemar.

Highly doubt they go for it with how well they've played recently.

They're not going to spend 100m on 2 players they don't really need.

 

[Rojofiam]

Highly doubt they go for it with how well they've played recently.

They're not going to spend 100m on 2 players they don't really need.

PSG then...

 

[Bojan11]

Highly doubt they go for it with how well they've played recently.

They're not going to spend 100m on 2 players they don't really need.

I don’t see Simeone spending big money on someone who is slower than Witsel at centre back. He doesn’t have the physical capabilities to play in an Atletico team.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

PSG then...

Maybe.

Fits Enrique's possession system somewhat.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I don’t see Simeone spending big money on someone who is slower than Witsel at centre back. He doesn’t have the physical capabilities to play in an Atletico team.

They wouldn't 1000%.

Maybe they'd be interested in Garnacho, but I doubt they're going to spend a decent sum of money on him when they don't really need him nor is he that talented where he'd outweigh other needs.

 

[Rojofiam]

Maybe.

Fits Enrique's possession system somewhat.

This is the problem with us buying the wrong players for our squad's specific needs. We can't sell them because doing business within the Premier League, especially with rivals is rare, but outside the league, there are not many teams who can pay the asking price and the players' wages are an even bigger problem. As a result, we can only come up with one or two potential destinations for most players unless they're worth peanuts, and those options we come up with seem to be unlikely scenarios anyways.

If Martínez was brought in to play left-back for a possession-based 4-3-3 system similar to what City and Arsenal have been playing in the last 2-3 years, he could contribute massively in such a team and his stock would still be high.

However, we brought him to play LCB in the Premier League, first in a 4-man defense, and now in a back 3...but you can't play someone like Martínez as a CB in this league.

 

[2cents]

Starting him at Anfield would be….a bad decision.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Can see him being moved on in January.
He's playing like his head is elsewhere.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

There’s clearly a good technical footballer within the guy, but Premier League centre back? Absolutely not. At his best he was handheld by Rapha Varane, at his worst he’s responsible for two goals conceded every other game.

 

[Bwuk]

I’d try him in midfield. The back 3 isn’t working for him.

 

[RuudTom83]

He is following the classic United player timeline…bright when he arrived, then had a tonne of injuries, now plays ok~ish once every 4-5 games.