We can compare these players because they both played for Monaco and his coach Jardim at the same age in the same era.
Of course, things can change quickly in football.
Kylian Mbappé | Player Performance Thread
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We can compare these players because they both played for Monaco and his coach Jardim at the same age in the same era.
Of course, things can change quickly in football.
funny enough my brother said the same thing. he doesn't like the way he dribbles/looks on the ball
Same. From potential/ raw talent to reaching one peak is a long way. Some players have higher ceiling but never fulfill, while some other inferior players could boast a better career & fulfill their potential making them better players than the former group overall. Happen all the time.
He may well be better, but people really do go with the "he is only as good as his last game" thinking. You mentioned Ben Arfa as a bigger talent, but he never fulfilled that talent, so what is a talent? A 17 year old who is rapid, strong and technical for his age? He may well be two years ahead of his peers in physical development, and thus when the others catch up he will no longer have that advantage.
Martial is fast, but not the fastest without the ball, and he is a good dribbler but not the best. However, he doesn't really have any real weaknesses to his game, and his close control running and accelerating with the ball is Messi-esque. His finishing is good but too inconsistent.
Judging who is the greater talent is impossible as there are too many unknowns even in the near future. Nani was just as big a talent as Ronaldo - I believe I read somewhere that Ronaldo said he was a bigger talent - and Riquelme probably trumps them both. We all know how that worked out.
Honestly you are arguing alone here, you are on the defensive for no good reason and I didn't say that Ben Arfa was a bigger talent, I said that Martial wasn't France's best talent because that would be Benzema, in recent years.
Now Martial isn't a lesser player because Mbappé has been better at a younger age, it doesn't mean that Mbappé is going to be a better player down the line either, in fact Martial and Mbappé could be surpassed by someone like Lemar or anybody else. The only thing that I said is that Mbappé was better at 18 years old than Martial which is also true for Benzema or Ben Arfa.
What is it with these remarks about arguing this or that or being on the defensive? For what reason should I be defensive? It's not like either is my offspring.
BTW: you did say that Martial wasn't as great a talent as Ben Arfa.
My only point is that I find it far too difficult to judge which is the greater talent, and it is far too often based on loose arguments like pace, dribbling, vision, intelligence of the game, which can all be difficult to judge unless you see them play against the same players week in week out. I recall Solkskjær looking a helluva lot slower the second he played in the PL simply because PL players were much faster and stronger than the ones he faced in Tippeligaen in Norway.
18 is a young age to judge anyone, but we do it far too often. Januzaj was touted as a great talent, some would have him higher than Sterling at that time, and then look what happened.
Mbappe may, as I said, be a bigger talent and may prove to be the greater talent, but I think people are comparing players too much. That being said, I have hardly watched Mbappe play, but I suspect most people here have watched but a handful of his games.
No I did not this is what I said "Martial at 18 years old was as good as Menez but not as good as Ben Arfa or Benzema..." and I added that Martial wasn't the biggest french talent because for some reason when one rates a player higher than Martial there is some commotions on this board as if it was impossible.
OK, semantics, but it seemed to me like you said that at 18, Ben Arfa was the bigger talent - better player, bigger talent, at 18 is pretty much the same to me as it is still a lot about talent.
Martial is a huge talent, but as it stands he is still a talent and not the developed player. He can remain at his level and still be a very good player, regress slightly and be an average player or improve and become one of the best. However, there are many who can go on to become one of the best but never achieve it. Not being able to say someone can become better than Martial is just silly.
Benzema is an interesting one though. I remember when he broke through as a huge talent. He was rapid, very technical and strong. Then when he matured his body changed a little and he lost that explosiveness, agility and with that some of his dribbling, and thus what were great parts of his natural talent was sort of diminished by nature - perhaps a little like Rooney. Benzema is of course a great player, but perhaps he never quite reached the heights people expected him to.
Benzema's problems were/are entirely mental. Like for 90% of elite talents that fail to live up to their potential
One can hardly call it much of a problem when you play as RM's lead striker for several seasons in a row - not a bad career at all. Never hitting the hype he was labelled with is perhaps more a testament of too much hype on youngsters.
Perhaps. Still, his problem is that he lacks consistency and hunger. If he had Cristiano's mentality, he would've been nearly as good
It's not just semantics, I literally compared the players at 18 years old, you want to make projections into the future and I won't because I don't know anything about it. At 18 years old Ben Arfa and Benzema were better that's the only thing I can say. Also Martial's talent isn't in doubt.
As for Benzema, he is very good today and he was very good as a teenager.
Well, then I misinterpreted your first quote about talent and level.
As for Benzema, he is very good, but I still maintain that people expected him to be even better.
That can be said of most footballers though. If Rooney had Ronaldo's mentality... If Nani had... What sets Ronaldo apart isn't his speed (he's fast, but there's a reason why Ferguson never mentioned him as one of the fastest he ever coached), nor is it his dribbling, but it's his sheer desire and mentality that combine and drive all of his great footballing attributes. Also, he has an ego greater than France - that also helps.
In football people always expect the best scenario, we want to dream. Also about Martial-Mbappé, Martial is currently a better player because he is a lot more powerful, Mbappé would probably struggle a little bit with that but he is slightly superior in almost every other aspects and something that might cause him some trouble he has a strong character, some managers will struggle with him.
As the wise would say, time will tell. You have probably watched him a lot more than I have. Martial's strength, speed and close control sets him apart, but it doesn't mean he is the strongest, the fastest or has the best close control. He does have a very good combination though. Rashford is faster, according to Martial, so it shouldn't come as a shock if Mbappe is faster. What about his finishing and dribbling in tight spaces? We need someone in our team who moves well without the ball, but also someone who is able to make defenders shit their pants because of their ability to beat players one on one in tight areas. We only have Martial for that.
I see it too. I've seen many players over the years with this style which often looks like they dont have complete control over what they're doing. I don't remember any ever going on to become greats.
Mbappé is smarter without the ball, he has a better understanding of space and which channel to run but it's probably due to the fact that he trains to play in a 442, he has to share the space. He is also a better finisher with a better strike technique and he is a natural dribbler, he was used wide at youth level.
Suarez, maybe?
I think Suarez was still more cultured. Mbappe is like Rashford last year with his dribbling in that it's borderline out of control but he gets away with it. Whether these touches are perfectly measured by him will remain to be seen over the next couple of years, but lets just say i think he is definitely going to be a striker and not a winger.
Like Robben? (honest question; I'm not entirely sure what you mean). I've never thought Robben looked as if he was "in complete control" over his body. Arms flapping around, head bobbing up and down. He always looks "spastic", but he's an incredible footballer.
I tend to agree with you. He has never made a single great international tournament with France despite playing for the country since 2007...
Henry retired in 2006 so it was open bar for him with France.
His love for football is impure.
Can he play as a right winger? I feel that both Mikitharyan and Mata are best served in the middle, and Valencia has to do too much work on our right side. We need someone with speed and dribbling down our right. We also need more goals from our wide men.
Great prospect but not at the expense of Griezmann
I think that he will be better as a striker but he can play anywhere.
You get defensive when its obvious the French posters have a better scope for comparison than you do, you've seen little of Mbappe and a lot of Martial while they've seen a lot of both.
A lawman above, Mbappe or Griezman?
Both, Griezmann is a top player and will help us right now while Mbappé is still a prospect but they can play together. In fact I would like to see how France would play with this group of player:
-----------Mbappé
Lemar--Griezmann--Dembélé
----- - Rabiot--Kanté
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So Lemar ahead of Martial then, and no Coman? Jeez you guys are spoiled! Try supporting Norway!
Mbappé could perhaps be employed out wide right with Mikitaryan for now and deputize with Ibra/Rashford as striker. We need numbers. I like Lingard, but you can't throw him on when we are chasing a goal and think he will score.
no, not like robben or suarez, more like yannick bolasie.
if you look at mbappe dribbling he has this weird posture and the ball never seems to be "glued" to his feet like it usually is with good dribblers, its like its always one or two steps too far, and he seems to rely quite a bit on knocking it forward. all that coupled with his long legs its just makes it look messy, like he's never in control. i wouldn't be surprised to see him go past two players to get to the byline and just run the ball out of play or a desperate cross that end in the stands because the ball wasn't under his control
he has been making it work and looks an amazing talent, but like @pocco said, i don't recall any player with this style of dribbling that ended up top drawer
Mbappé shouldn't move to a place where he is seen as a potential deputee, he needs to play and be trusted.
i would imagine part of this is because he's yet to complete his physical developmentno, not like robben or suarez, more like yannick bolasie.
if you look at mbappe dribbling he has this weird posture and the ball never seems to be "glued" to his feet like it usually is with good dribblers, its like its always one or two steps too far, and he seems to rely quite a bit on knocking it forward. all that coupled with his long legs its just makes it look messy, like he's never in control. i wouldn't be surprised to see him go past two players to get to the byline and just run the ball out of play or a desperate cross that end in the stands because the ball wasn't under his control
he has been making it work and looks an amazing talent, but like @pocco said, i don't recall any player with this style of dribbling that ended up top drawer
no, not like robben or suarez, more like yannick bolasie.
if you look at mbappe dribbling he has this weird posture and the ball never seems to be "glued" to his feet like it usually is with good dribblers, its like its always one or two steps too far, and he seems to rely quite a bit on knocking it forward. all that coupled with his long legs its just makes it look messy, like he's never in control. i wouldn't be surprised to see him go past two players to get to the byline and just run the ball out of play or a desperate cross that end in the stands because the ball wasn't under his control
he has been making it work and looks an amazing talent, but like @pocco said, i don't recall any player with this style of dribbling that ended up top drawer
My (modest) understanding.
M'bappé isn't:
- a pure winger like Overmars, Robben or Ribéry
- a side-midfielder like Robert Pirès or Donadoni (4-4-2 system)
- a central attacking midfielder with exceptional dribbling skills
M'bape could be deployed as:
- a second striker (4-4-2 system -- Monaco)
- a CF if he still improves (still 18 years)
- a kind of wing-forward: not his best role IMO. He could be decent like Cavani in the past with PSG when Zlatan was the CF.
What are his strengths? Pace, physically powerful (potential to be even stronger) and capacity score a lot. His mentality/behaviour seems good and positive. I'm not here to sell dreams, but yeah I'm a fan or muppet
You should analyze the CV of Cavani and watch his games between 2013-2015 to see it's not mandatory for a forward/striker/scorer to be an excellent dribbler.
I will come back here after the return against City: I don't like to repeat myself
The true Henry clone....
Are we really spoiled to the extend to see this guy not a wizdribbler due to his dribbling style? Bolasie . That's brutal
Henry had to drag the ball at time when dribbling, long stride, kick long, sorting his feets... He's not master of close control dribbling, where the ball glue to his feet neither. In his generation he's one of the elite dribbler. If anything, he's one of the better of attacking the big space kind of dribbler which close control dribblers ain't as good. I meant with big space to cover you require more of top speed, which Hazard, Martial, Messi young Robben (how he got faster as he aged?)... not all that impressive.
. That's brutalHenry had to drag the ball at time when dribbling, long stride, kick long, sorting his feets... He's not master of close control dribbling, where the ball glue to his feet neither. In his generation he's one of the elite dribbler. If anything, he's one of the better of attacking the big space kind of dribbler which close control dribblers ain't as good. I meant with big space to cover you require more of top speed, which Hazard, Martial, Messi young Robben (how he got faster as he aged?)... not all that impressive.
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My (modest) understanding.
M'bappé isn't:
- a pure winger like Overmars, Robben or Ribéry
- a side-midfielder like Robert Pirès or Donadoni (4-4-2 system)
- a central attacking midfielder with exceptional dribbling skills
M'bape could be deployed as:
- a second striker (4-4-2 system -- Monaco)
- a CF if he still improves (still 18 years)
- a kind of wing-forward: not his best role IMO. He could be decent like Cavani in the past with PSG when Zlatan was the CF.
What are his strengths? Pace, physically powerful (potential to be even stronger) and capacity score a lot. His mentality/behaviour seems good and positive. I'm not here to sell dreams, but yeah I'm a fan or muppet
You should analyze the CV of Cavani and watch his games between 2013-2015 to see it's not mandatory for a forward/striker/scorer to be an excellent dribbler.
I will come back here after the return against City: I don't like to repeat myself
I wasn't arguing his position or against him per se. As I said he has been making his dribbling style work and looks like a great talent. Its just, and however irrational this may sound, the way he looks on the ball has put a niggling doubt in my brother's head and mine that he could turn/end up absolute average/shit in the future and this is mostly due to the fact that players that dribble in that manner don't normally turn out very good. Like I said he reminds me a bit of bolasie or zaha on the ball.
I hope these fears are proven to be silly and he goes on to become what bolasinho never could, and turns out a beast, ideally with us if so
, but yeah...You don't need to be an elite dribbler to be an elite striker. You don't need great dribbling to score a lot. Cristiano Ronaldo scored 61 goals in 2014/15 and he had completely lost his ability to dribble
He was taking penalties, had the most shots per game in Europe for the nth consecutive season and the team tilted to accommodate him. No other goal scoring forward is afforded such luxuries bar Messi, who also happens to be a playmaker.
Mbappe would do well in a team like City where he would have a lot of one vs ones and also be in quite a few counter attacking situations.
And? Is that supposed to be a rebuttal?