Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Smores said:
It means more than the anecdotal mandate these rebels claim to have from voices on thier doorstep. These members you're dismissing are the grass roots who you need for an election campaign

Exactly what do you have to back up a claim that back to Blair is what the country wants? Especially considering when people have just voted out largely because of politicians like Blair who have failed them and as they see it ruined the country with uncontrolled immigration experiments.

I won't automatically be voting Corbyn but some of you need to get your head out of the sand if you think it's just a matter of getting rid of him and everything will be fine. No one will hate Labour anymore.
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I absolutely don't think everything will just be ok getting rid of him. But I also think that getting rid of him is a pre-requisite to trying to do something to get an effective opposition.

I am a Labour voter and I actually initially welcomed the freshness that he seemed to bring. But he hasn't managed to blend his personality with the elements he needs to and I certainly haven't been impressed by his performance at all. He and John M have been crass in some of the PMQs and let so many opportunities go.

And quite frankly if this has been pre-planned it's pretty incompetent that apparently he only did anything about it after reading an article in the Observer. Pre-planned or not, he is not the one setting the agenda which is pretty poor if you recognise that being a politician requires those kind of skills as well banging on about your pure socialist background.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
Ok fair enough but its clear that the Euro debate was weighing heavily on that poll.
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And the euro debate isn't going to continue to weigh heavily against the tories? That's their entire reasoning for doing this isn't it?

So basically (if you take the polls as true) he's already shown he stands a chance under these conditions. This a risky move by the party which ever way you paint it, it's not a situation of we can't win so we need to do something.

As I've said I'm not blind to Corbyn's mistakes and I've been reviewing my intentions too but this is just dissapointng from the PLP. If the Lib Dems sort themselves out there's a good chance they'd get my vote.
 
London Young Labour have called on him to resign. Not sure what their actual makeup is, entirely possible it's full of Liz Kendall supporters, but given young people and Londoners were a big part of his mandate, may indicate a turning against him.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
What? Are you serious?

Taking a mandate from Labour members means very little as they are a tiny proportion of the population who vote Labour. Second, you're assuming he would win another mandate from them which may or may not be true once they see he exercises zero control over his actual party.

Under Blair, Labour won three elections in a row. Under Foot and Kinnock who were both more charismatic leaders than Corbyn they failed to do so even when facing some of the most unpopular governments in history.

History ain't on his side, he has poor relations with the media, zero support from his own MPs and you can tell what the Conservatives think of him by the eagerness with which they agree a quick GE is required.
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Corbyn will probably vote against himself in a GE
 
So the way for Labour to win the next election is go against the wishes of their membership who some here are sneeringly calling Three Pounders and elect more of the same that saw them obliterated by one of the least popular governments in history at the last election. It was pretty obvious that the right wing self serving elements in the party were put out by his appointment, trying everything in their power to get one of their own in, regardless of the fact that's getting further and further away from what the party is supposed to stand for. The message here is "we want power at any cost and don't care about your ideology Jeremy".
 
Spark said:
Spot on. For the sake of this country, he needs to do the honourable thing and leave. Everyone screaming that this is a coup against the labour members, these are the same labour members who only became members by paying £3 to vote him in in the first place.

Corbyn, like Farage, would fair much better under proportional representation. However, ironically considering we've just left the "undemocratic" EU, our government is not democratically elected. As such we need an opposition capable of winning first past the post and Corbyn simply does not play the correct system and is an idealist.
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He won with "proper" none-£3 members as well. The whole he only won because of the fake £3 members thing is another falsehood made up by his rivals. All they can do is make stuff up and tell people that he's not electable. It shouldn't be tolerated any more.
 
The centre of politics is incredibly toxic at the moment. All it can do is sneer at those it disagrees with and disenfranchise them further. Any surprise when people it calls stupid are being driven to vote for choices it calls stupid?
 
Shamwow said:
The centre of politics is incredibly toxic at the moment. All it can do is sneer at those it disagrees with and disenfranchise them further. Any surprise when people it calls stupid are being driven to vote for choices it calls stupid?
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This is a problem for politics generally. When those focus groups of ex-Labour voters were published that said Corbyn was crap, they were called morons by many on here.
 
Red Ryan said:
So the way for Labour to win the next election is go against the wishes of their membership who some here are sneeringly calling Three Pounders and elect more of the same that saw them obliterated by one of the least popular governments in history at the last election. It was pretty obvious that the right wing self serving elements in the party were put out by his appointment, trying everything in their power to get one of their own in, regardless of the fact that's getting further and further away from what the party is supposed to stand for. The message here is "we want power at any cost and don't care about your ideology Jeremy".
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The trouble is, and this is just my own opinion of course, the majority of the people in this country have little appetite for lurching too far to the left or right in this country these days (UKIP for me will cease to be of much relevance now we've voted to come out of the EU). Most are centre-left, centre, or centre-right in their outlook and for Labour to become re-electable again they need to reclaim that middle ground that they won over so emphatically in 1997. That doesn't necessarily mean a return to the New Labour days but Old Labour is pretty much dead in the water in terms of becoming electable. A strong leader that can both appeal to the more left-wing elements of the party as well as those centrist elements minus the Blairite bullshit and they could quite conceivably win the next election, particularly if the Conservatives elect someone who is too right-wing.

I think both parties are in turmoil at the moment and the public are generally pissed off with them both. For me, this is an unexpected opportunity for Labour to reconnect with many of their disaffected voters.
 
Ubik said:
This is a problem for politics generally. When those focus groups of ex-Labour voters were published that said Corbyn was crap, they were called morons by many on here.
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I can handle when it's happening online (although I doubt that it was "many" as you said).

That's easy enough to ignore. But this is MPs doing it, and doing it repeatedly, and not learning every time it fails and hurts the country.
 
Ubik said:
This is a problem for politics generally. When those focus groups of ex-Labour voters were published that said Corbyn was crap, they were called morons by many on here.
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I think it's a problem that stems from the media. And you're right in that context, a leftist can never win the media, so Labour must elect centrists. The problem with centrists is the long-term contradictions that will arise (inequality and immigration, for example), but if the media is managed correctly those only take an election cycle or 2 to break.
 
Luciana Berger resigns as shadow cabinet minister for mental health.
 
berbatrick said:
I think it's a problem that stems from the media. And you're right in that context, a leftist can never win the media, so Labour must elect centrists. The problem with centrists is the long-term contradictions that will arise (inequality and immigration, for example), but if the media is managed correctly those only take an election cycle or 2 to break.
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You going to take down News Corp for us then?
 
John Healey giving away that this is a stitch up. Feel sorry for some of the MPs caught up in this.:

"Mr Healey tells the BBC he does not "share the criticism" of Mr Corbyn's conduct of the referendum campaign, but believes a Labour leader has to "hold the party together" in the face of the Brexit fallout and a likely general election. "We need a new mandate" for a leader, Mr Healey argues."
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M18CTID said:
The trouble is, and this is just my own opinion of course, the majority of the people in this country have little appetite for lurching too far to the left or right in this country these days (UKIP for me will cease to be of much relevance now we've voted to come out of the EU). Most are centre-left, centre, or centre-right in their outlook and for Labour to become re-electable again they need to reclaim that middle ground that they won over so emphatically in 1997. That doesn't necessarily mean a return to the New Labour days but Old Labour is pretty much dead in the water in terms of becoming electable. A strong leader that can both appeal to the more left-wing elements of the party as well as those centrist elements minus the Blairite bullshit and they could quite conceivably win the next election, particularly if the Conservatives elect someone who is too right-wing.

I think both parties are in turmoil at the moment and the public are generally pissed off with them both. For me, this is an unexpected opportunity for Labour to reconnect with many of their disaffected voters.
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This is what I'm getting at. I don't have an issue with Corbyn for any other reason than he hasn't showed any sign that he is capable of winning that middle ground.
 
Mozzarella Balsamic-Vinegar resigns as Minister for Monkeys on Tricycles.
 
Smores said:
And the euro debate isn't going to continue to weigh heavily against the tories? That's their entire reasoning for doing this isn't it?

So basically (if you take the polls as true) he's already shown he stands a chance under these conditions. This a risky move by the party which ever way you paint it, it's not a situation of we can't win so we need to do something.

As I've said I'm not blind to Corbyn's mistakes and I've been reviewing my intentions too but this is just dissapointng from the PLP. If the Lib Dems sort themselves out there's a good chance they'd get my vote.
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Yes but now he is going (and rightly so) to get some of the blame himself for the Leave vote. His performance was ineffectual in the extreme.

Labour's ability to leverage the EU as a voting issue will be hugely compromised by having Corbyn as their leader. Someone who is lukewarm on the subject and has consistently been so.
 
Smores said:
And the euro debate isn't going to continue to weigh heavily against the tories? That's their entire reasoning for doing this isn't it?

So basically (if you take the polls as true) he's already shown he stands a chance under these conditions. This a risky move by the party which ever way you paint it, it's not a situation of we can't win so we need to do something.

As I've said I'm not blind to Corbyn's mistakes and I've been reviewing my intentions too but this is just dissapointng from the PLP. If the Lib Dems sort themselves out there's a good chance they'd get my vote.
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And a poll from Saturday now has the Conservatives four points up. This is before any Corbyn coup news began to emerge.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
Yes but now he is going (and rightly so) to get some of the blame himself for the Leave vote. His performance was ineffectual in the extreme.

Labour's ability to leverage the EU as a voting issue will be hugely compromised by having Corbyn as their leader. Someone who is lukewarm on the subject and has consistently been so.
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His critics keep saying it was ineffectual. Other people I've spoken to who don't have such an obvious agenda say he was the most convincing person they heard on the subject.

All we really have to go off is the apparent fact that 2/3rds of the Labour voters voted for Remain, about the same as the SNP and Lib Dems who had a much easier job of it. And much more than the Cameron managed. So how much did he really fail?
 
Donkey's Ears said:
And a poll from Saturday now has the Conservatives four points up. This is before any Corbyn coup news began to emerge.
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The same four points as in the referendum. It's absolutely disgusting that Corbyn is not even allowed to go to the ballot in an election for the public to decide if they want to elect him or not. His face clearly doesn't fit with the cliques inside Labour and it's clear this coup was planned for some time.
 
Shamwow said:
His critics keep saying it was ineffectual. Other people I've spoken to who don't have such an obvious agenda say he was the most convincing person they heard on the subject.

All we really have to go off is the apparent fact that 2/3rds of the Labour voters voted for Remain, about the same as the SNP and Lib Dems who had a much easier job of it. And much more than the Cameron managed. So how much did he really fail?
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Ok well we can trade anecdotes all we like but the Labour votes that voted Remain were largely metropolitan. They were always going to vote Remain. The issue was with the working class for Labour - an element apparently Corbyn should have been effective with but quite clearly wasn't.

If you think he was convincing then of course that's fair enough - but the data I've seen show that Labour voters were often confused about the official party policy on the issue.

And on a pure random poll of people I know who voted Labour in the GE and voted Remain - and many of those quite liked the Corbyn leadership challenge - think he is going to a) win over any central voters who might defect from the Conservatives on this issue and b) actually control and lead his party.
 
Shamwow said:
His critics keep saying it was ineffectual. Other people I've spoken to who don't have such an obvious agenda say he was the most convincing person they heard on the subject.

All we really have to go off is the apparent fact that 2/3rds of the Labour voters voted for Remain, about the same as the SNP and Lib Dems who had a much easier job of it. And much more than the Cameron managed. So how much did he really fail?
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Not to mention that the areas where Labour failed to get their voters to remain (often in the north) had already been showing an increasing Euroscepticism with the rise in UKIP support in the north during 2015.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
Ok well we can trade anecdotes all we like but the Labour votes that voted Remain were largely metropolitan. They were always going to vote Remain. The issue was with the working class for Labour - an element apparently Corbyn should have been effective with but quite clearly wasn't.

If you think he was convincing then of course that's fair enough - but the data I've seen show that Labour voters were often confused about the official party policy on the issue.

And on a pure random poll of people I know who voted Labour in the GE and voted Remain - and many of those quite liked the Corbyn leadership challenge - think he is going to a) win over any central voters who might defect from the Conservatives on this issue and b) actually control and lead his party.
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Yes I'm not a fan of trading random anecdotes, which is why I gave you the statistic that Corbyn delivered 2/3rds of the Labour vote. What would be the acceptable benchmark for him, when the Lib Dem party which are much more united on the topic only managed to do slightly better?

So you pooh-pooh that statistic and then go back to trading an anecdote of your random poll? Classic!
 
Cheesy said:
Not to mention that the areas where Labour failed to get their voters to remain (often in the north) had already been showing an increasing Euroscepticism with the rise in UKIP support in the north during 2015.
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But no it's Corbyn's fault.

Remember that "I missed my bus. Corbyn must resign!" meme? It's too fecking close to the truth to be funny any more.
 
Shamwow said:
Yes I'm not a fan of trading random anecdotes, which is why I gave you the statistic that Corbyn delivered 2/3rds of the Labour vote. What would be the acceptable benchmark for him, when the Lib Dem party which are much more united on the topic only managed to do slightly better?

So you pooh-pooh that statistic and then go back to trading an anecdote of your random poll? Classic!
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Fair point re anecdotes but I was trying to make a different point. I have nothing against Corbyn and indeed supported his leadership campaign. But since he has become leader I haven't seen him push himself from left wing purist to an effective leader.

You have to work with rivals and elements you don't like - he made his best friend and fellow left wing purist McDonnell Chancellor who then confirmed the image of die hard reds by quoting effing Chairman Mao.

What you are missing in my opinion is the risk that the people who voted Remain and Labour (like myself) won't vote Labour again if they aren't convinced by his committment to the EU. Like it or not this has become a critical issue and it's one on which historically he has been lukewarm.

And on top of all that as I say pre-planned or not, these are resignations on a scale we've almost never seen before and people are not idiots. These are their careers so if they genuinely thought there was a chance of Corbyn winning or him changing his approach they would presumably (some of them) heed this. But they're not.
 
Shamwow said:
But no it's Corbyn's fault.

Remember that "I missed my bus. Corbyn must resign!" meme? It's too fecking close to the truth to be funny any more.
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I'm certainly not blaming Corbyn for the Leave victory - I don't think he did a great job of persuading people to vote Remain but that's not the same. What I am saying is I don't believe he is capable of wining a GE.
 
Alan Johnson claiming Corbyn's office sabotaged the campaign.
I don't care about personalities but Corbyn has been anti EU since the 70s. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that people in his office actually did this.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
Fair point re anecdotes but I was trying to make a different point. I have nothing against Corbyn and indeed supported his leadership campaign. But since he has become leader I haven't seen him push himself from left wing purist to an effective leader.

You have to work with rivals and elements you don't like - he made his best friend and fellow left wing purist McDonnell Chancellor who then confirmed the image of die hard reds by quoting effing Chairman Mao.

What you are missing in my opinion is the risk that the people who voted Remain and Labour (like myself) won't vote Labour again if they aren't convinced by his committment to the EU. Like it or not this has become a critical issue and it's one on which historically he has been lukewarm.

And on top of all that as I say pre-planned or not, these are resignations on a scale we've almost never seen before and people are not idiots. These are their careers so if they genuinely thought there was a chance of Corbyn winning or him changing his approach they would presumably (some of them) heed this. But they're not.
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I'm seeing a lot saying this that no longer support him.

Wonder if Corbyn's confidence about support from the membership is based on polling they've done privately or not.
 
Shamwow said:
All we really have to go off is the apparent fact that 2/3rds of the Labour voters voted for Remain, about the same as the SNP and Lib Dems who had a much easier job of it. And much more than the Cameron managed. So how much did he really fail?
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That is an amazing statistic and should change the minds of the people here (if not the PLP). Source?
 
Donkey's Ears said:
Why is it an amazing statistic? Genghis Khan could have been leader of the Labour party and I would have voted Remain.
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Maybe you would have; that doesn't mean it'd have been the case for others. The problem here is that while people are saying Corbyn should resign after his supposed failure during the EU referendum...there hasn't really been any, unless you think Sturgeon should resign from the SNP as well. Which would clearly be fecking madness.

There's plenty of reasons for Corbyn to go, but this really isn't one of them, and anyone thinking that Dan Jarvis, Chuka Ummuna, or Tony Blairiband would've reaped better results is probably just looking for a way to get Corbyn out. No Remain party was able to secure all of their voters to go that way, including the Lib Dems and SNP.
 
Keir Starmer's gone now as well. He's not your everyday plotter, by any stretch.
 
Cheesy said:
Maybe you would have; that doesn't mean it'd have been the case for others. The problem here is that while people are saying Corbyn should resign after his supposed failure during the EU referendum...there hasn't really been any, unless you think Sturgeon should resign from the SNP as well. Which would clearly be fecking madness.

There's plenty of reasons for Corbyn to go, but this really isn't one of them, and anyone thinking that Dan Jarvis, Chuka Ummuna, or Tony Blairiband would've reaped better results is probably just looking for a way to get Corbyn out. No Remain party was able to secure all of their voters to go that way, including the Lib Dems and SNP.
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And again it isn't the main reason I think he should go.

I don't think he was very effective but that is an opinion and until we have more data we will have to agree to disagree.

What I do think is that a) he clearly has no control over his party and surely we can now accept the resignations have gone beyond a small cabal of Blairites and b) he isn't the man to lead Labour in an election which will be dominated by the EU

Also I think people are underestimating the risk if he stays and fights in an election dominated by this issue.

And I don't see - apart from his good but relatively unpressurised performances in the leadership challenge - what he has done to command such loyalty/support. Apart from hate Blair.
 
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