Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

It was a coherent, fluid and oratorically powerfully summation of the best arguments in favour whilst acknowledging the doubts that exist. Beckett had a more forensic counter argument, Farron was more pure of emotion (those warmongering Lib Dems! Oh wait...), Jarvis was more tightly focused on the fascism and internationalism argument, but Benn's combined them all really well into a single piece. So no, it wasn't people just deciding to like it for the anti-Corbyn lol. Just like I'm sure the people not liking it today aren't doing so purely out of bitterness it showed up Corbyn's earlier mess.

If you don't think the media angle of highlighting that speech is because it draws a parallel to Corbyn (who was poor) then I believe that a bit naive.

I think you've used a lot of words there to state a simple truth, he used throw away phrases to summarise the argument. I'm not debating that it was a fine performance but it's not a great speech imo because it was very shallow.

Stella Creasey for instance claimed his speech convinced her to vote for the strikes. I genuinely find that disgraceful considering all the information available that she was convinced by a political performance.
 
I broadly agree with Max Hastings' opinion on it:

"I personally don't think this has been a great day for democracy ... Hillary Benn substituted intense emotion and passion for rational discussion. I'm not a pacifist, I'm not a Corbynista, I'm strongly in favour of military action if one's convinced it's going to work"

"I'm amazed that David Cameron can come to the HoC, make many of the arguments he used for that disastrous intervention in Libya, and by gosh most of the HoC is willing to go with him on it. And I think they're bonkers."
 
If you don't think the media angle of highlighting that speech is because it draws a parallel to Corbyn (who was poor) then I believe that a bit naive.

I think you've used a lot of words there to state a simple truth, he used throw away phrases to summarise the argument. I'm not debating that it was a fine performance but it's not a great speech imo because it was very shallow.

Stella Creasey for instance claimed his speech convinced her to vote for the strikes. I genuinely find that disgraceful considering all the information available that she was convinced by a political performance.

perhaps she is telling the truth... she thought yup that speech is going to get him the top job and if I start to say nice things about him it helps my career in the long term.

Lets not forget afterall that these are professionals and I dont know if you have ever worked in a place where you thought - yup that chap / chapette will go far (I'm going to make sure they drag me most of the way with them)

Though of course one would expect it to be the security briefings and consultation with experts and constituents that made peoples minds up - but as she went into the day saying she was undecided she sort of backed herself into either abstaining or having to say it was something in the debate that made her pro or anti whilst most people had pre stated positions.

Id have prefered it if she had said refused to be bullied by the anti war morons who were phoning her office to abuse her staff http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ebate-abusive-phone-calls-staff-a6757226.html
and she voted for the strikes just to show them they couldn't bully her - but that probably wouldn't have played as well as well in the media, in political circles and career wise as saying Benn convinced her
 
If you don't think the media angle of highlighting that speech is because it draws a parallel to Corbyn (who was poor) then I believe that a bit naive.

I think you've used a lot of words there to state a simple truth, he used throw away phrases to summarise the argument. I'm not debating that it was a fine performance but it's not a great speech imo because it was very shallow.

Stella Creasey for instance claimed his speech convinced her to vote for the strikes. I genuinely find that disgraceful considering all the information available that she was convinced by a political performance.

I find it quite amazing how over a dozen Labour MPs were swayed by that one speech, hard to imagine they can be so fickle considering they've had their constituents to consult as well as perhaps doing their own research. It wasn't even a great speech substance wise.
 
Not sure that saying they're voting for military action in a foreign country to spite a few trolls is what we should be hoping for in our politicians.
 
Not sure that saying they're voting for military action in a foreign country to spite a few trolls is what we should be hoping for in our politicians.
as I say far more prudent of her to commend Benn... but personally Id like it if she just came out and said she did it to stop people trying to bully her as all of this de-selection business is pretty un-democratic and paints the Labour movement as inward facing and out of touch with reality - but far more prudent to praise benn
 
Was brilliant, hell of a lot of pressure on him and it was flawless in delivery and tone.

By-election result later, I think it'll probably end up being a fairly comfortable win, just have to see how much UKIP has eaten away at support.

I don't see UKIP getting in Oldham and Royton West. There are large Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities in the area, those communities all vote and they all vote Labour.

It would be a stunning defeat if UKIP got in and a really grim moment for the town from my perspective. My home town becoming the second UKIP seat in Britain!

I can't see it happening but in the current climate, and in that ward, Corbyn's Labour should be increasing majority. McMahon is a good candidate too, previously very popular in the town.
 
If you don't think the media angle of highlighting that speech is because it draws a parallel to Corbyn (who was poor) then I believe that a bit naive.

I think you've used a lot of words there to state a simple truth, he used throw away phrases to summarise the argument. I'm not debating that it was a fine performance but it's not a great speech imo because it was very shallow.

Stella Creasey for instance claimed his speech convinced her to vote for the strikes. I genuinely find that disgraceful considering all the information available that she was convinced by a political performance.
And I could call you bitter, it's easy to throw insults around.
 
And I could call you bitter, it's easy to throw insults around.

I think you've imagined an insult to be honest. You're right though I'm incredibly bitter about the situation we're in and that we're going to a war based on emotional justifications without any coherent plan.

I'm of the viewpoint that after repeated mistakes in the middle east that the least we can expect of them is to show due consideration. Rushing the vote in such a way was disgraceful and for that I'm very bitter.
 
I don't see UKIP getting in Oldham and Royton West. There are large Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities in the area, those communities all vote and they all vote Labour.

It would be a stunning defeat if UKIP got in and a really grim moment for the town from my perspective. My home town becoming the second UKIP seat in Britain!

I can't see it happening but in the current climate, and in that ward, Corbyn's Labour should be increasing majority. McMahon is a good candidate too, previously very popular in the town.
If labour get a big reduction in their majority then alarm bells must start going off
Their is a large ethnic population unlikely to vote UKIP but if they are loosing votes amongst that so called traditional white working class vote as well as some of the more centrist Lib / lab floating voters being put off by the more socialist policies then quite frankly they are in trouble in less ethnically diverse constituencies
 
There is some talk on Twitter that the turnout in Oldham could be below 30%, it was just shy of 60% in May.
 
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There is some talk on Twitter that the turnout in Oldham could be below 30%, it was just shy of 60% in May.
The uncertainty over the result is pretty huge, some suggesting a comfortable hold, some suggesting less than a thousand votes in it. Not sure who's helped by the low turnout either.
 
The uncertainty over the result is pretty huge, some suggesting a comfortable hold, some suggesting less than a thousand votes in it. Not sure who's helped by the low turnout either.

If the turnout is low then Labour should smash it. The ethnic communities always turn out and they always vote Labour.
 
The uncertainty over the result is pretty huge, some suggesting a comfortable hold, some suggesting less than a thousand votes in it. Not sure who's helped by the low turnout either.
Labour I think... They were pushing the postal vote a lot and we're expected to have quite a lead from that so a low turnout should help
1000 votes would be terrible though from the majority they had before
 
Hopefully, though I have heard the postal vote returns were pretty dire.
 
Labour I think... They were pushing the postal vote a lot and we're expected to have quite a lead from that so a low turnout should help
1000 votes would be terrible though from the majority they had before

I have a friend who was a Tory councilor in a ward near Oldham and Royton West some time ago, he is still an activist canvases all wards in the borough. He is adamant that Labour benefit from massive postal vote fraud from the Bangladeshi community. He claims that they canvassed houses that were empty but had seven voters registered to them. Claims that they reported the incidents to the police but they were not interested.

I don't know if it is true or exaggerated but that was what he told me.
 
If the turnout is very low it will be hard to read anything into the result
 
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/12/why-oldham-west-could-be-just-start-labour-s-worries

I think this article sums up what I think is a real blind spot for the hard left. Growing up in this ward I attended comprehensive school with a demography that would be classed as working class - middle class. The only seriously left wing kids that I knew at school were middle class alternative types that went on to university. I have never really come across very many people at all that I would class as hard left in this area. I only speak from my own experience but it always seemed to me that a lot of the working class people voted for Labour, in this area at least, out of economic pragmatism. The hard left seem to make the assumption that because the working class voted Labour historically that they subscribe to wider left wing ideology, specifically talking about social ideology. That has never seemed to be the case from my own personal experience. I would say that many of the people in that area are patriotic and are not necessarily all that socially liberal.
 
I'm just discovering that his brother is a lunatic climate change denier. How did I not know this.
 
Quite a few MP's are saying it was Benn's speech that changed their mind. I'd love to know exactly what changed their mind "hes right these guys are fascist bad like Hitler, we should bomb them. Sod all the issues we've heard today. Fascists!"
As if the cnuts were all teetering on the edge, "ooh, not sure whose speech I like the best".
fecking parasites the lot of them.
 
I'm just discovering that his brother is a lunatic climate change denier. How did I not know this.
He also attends Momentum meetings!

It's kind of like a shabbily dressed and poorly spoken version of the Hitchens brothers.
 
Good excuse to have a laugh at Dan Hodges if nothing else





(Not endorsing the view that Oldham proves Corbyn is popular or anything, just laughing at Hodges and his dedication to mental gymnastics.)
 
Good excuse to have a laugh at Dan Hodges if nothing else





(Not endorsing the view that Oldham proves Corbyn is popular or anything, just laughing at Hodges and his dedication to mental gymnastics.)

erm he is actually right
the majority traditionally refers to the amount of seats you win by (not proportion of the vote) - and even though labour increased their proportion of the vote it was overall a lower turnout and as such the majority reduced by about 4,000 (around 10,700 from 14,700 - figures from memory so probably some error - but it depends how you want to spin it but the majority is down with vote share up - I think most would call that a good result for Labour)

But this is whats possible when labour field moderate candidates (I believe the chap in question voted for Liz Kendal - so Im sure he is on some corbynista de-selection / final solution to the balirite scum list)
 
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erm he is actually right
the majority traditionally refers to the amount of seats you win by (not proportion of the vote) - and even though labour increased their proportion of the vote it was overall a lower turnout and as such the majority reduced by about 4,000 (around 10,700 from 14,700 - figures from memory so probably some error - but it depends how you want to spin it but the majority is down with vote share up - I think most would call that a good result for Labour)

I know he's 'technically' correct but he's arguing semantics in my opinion.
 
erm he is actually right
the majority traditionally refers to the amount of seats you win by (not proportion of the vote) - and even though labour increased their proportion of the vote it was overall a lower turnout and as such the majority reduced by about 4,000 (around 10,700 from 14,700 - figures from memory so probably some error - but it depends how you want to spin it but the majority is down with vote share up - I think most would call that a good result for Labour)

But this is whats possible when labour field moderate candidates (I believe the chap in question voted for Liz Kendal - so Im sure he is on some corbynista de-selection / final solution to the balirite scum list)

Lets be honest though. The media and people in this thread were predicting it would be an absolute blood bath and now that hasn't happened they're back tracking with stuff about turnout (which isn't even that bad in the general scheme of by-elections).
 
I know he's 'technically' correct but he's arguing semantics in my opinion.

If you know the area though you would know that Labour have the Asian communities locked down and that they always turn out to vote. There have been more Labour signs put up in the area than there were for the general election. Labour worked really hard to get their voters out this time.

It would have been truly incredible if UKIP had got in considering how weak and opportunistic their campaign was and against the backdrop of the regeneration the
existing Labour council have been overseeing.
 
If you know the area though you would know that Labour have the Asian communities locked down and that they always turn out to vote. There have been more Labour signs put up in the area than there were for the general election. Labour worked really hard to get their voters out this time.

It would have been truly incredible if UKIP had got in considering how weak and opportunistic their campaign was and against the backdrop of the regeneration the
existing Labour council have been overseeing.

I'm not too familiar with Oldham, only been there a few times mainly to go to the auction place so I wouldn't presume to understand the situation. As I said I don't think anyone should be drawing too much from this in terms of reflecting on Corbyn's leadership. Just a good excuse to laugh at Dan Hodges.

What I do hope is that it gives something that Labour MPs can rally around and hopefully put the infighting to one side for a moment as that infighting is hurting the party more than anything.
 
What I do hope is that it gives something that Labour MPs can rally around and hopefully put the infighting to one side for a moment as that infighting is hurting the party more than anything.

Whilst I am no fan of Corbyn I am very pleased Labour retained that seat. It would have been grim if UKIP got in.
 
A superb overall summary from Andrew Sparrow at the Guardian

What does the Oldham result really tells us Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? A Q&A
Almost all the media reporting from Oldham suggested that Labour was facing a real challenge from Ukip, partly because some traditional supporters had doubts about Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. Yet Labour won handsomely. Is that because the journalists were all just biased and wrong, as the Corbyn camp suggests? (See 10.26am.) Or were there other factors at play?

Here’s a Q&A that may untangle some of these issues.

Q: All this stuff about Corbyn being unpopular - did the journalists just get it wrong, or make it up?

No. Sometimes journalists do distort things to fit a political agenda but over the last few weeks there have been multiple reports from serious, reputable journalists who have either witnessed first-hand Oldham Labour-leaning voters criticising Corbyn, or reported Labour figures echoing these concerns. For example, there wasBagehot in the Economist, this report in the Daily Telegraph, Rafael Behr in the Guardian, George Eaton in the New Statesman and Helen Pidd in the Guardian.

I did not arrive in Oldham until yesterday afternoon but I was curious about this and I spent about an hour and a half talking to people in the Spindles shopping centre and I encountered the same phenomenon too. For example, Norman Davies, a retired Royal Mail worker, told me.

I’m generally a Labour man but unfortunately I won’t vote for them this time, not while they’ve got this idiot at the helm, this guy who would cut our defence, no way ... I don’t like him at all. He’s doing more harm than good for this country. He’s a no, no for them.

If Labour really thought Corbyn was an asset here, he would have played a part in the campaign. But, apart from one visit early on, he stayed away, and he did not feature much on Labour campaign leaflets either.

Q: So, if Corbyn really is unpopular with some voters, why didn’t that make any difference?

I can think of think of three reasons.

1) Corbyn’s leadership never became an issue. Ukip tried to make it the issue of the campaign but they failed to persuade the electorate that this was what the contest was about. Opposition parties like Ukip win byelections by identifying a grievance and invited voters to use the poll to express their feelings about this. People use byelections to rhetorically kick the prime minister. But they don’t use them to get involved in opposition leadership feuds.

2) But the identify of the local candidate was an issue - and Labour’s was excellent.

3) Corbyn may alienate some voters, but he attracts others too. I discovered this in my short spell in the shopping centre. For example, Nigel Jones, a former publican, told me:

I’ve been a card carrying Labour supporter for 33 years and I’m quite leftwing, so Corbyn is my ideal leader in a way.

And a district nurse who did not want to give her name told me.

[Corbyn’s] interesting, in a good way. You feel that he answers things. He does not talk like other politicians. They never answer anything.

The Corbyn effect may help to explain why the Greens did so badly. At the general election they got 839 votes (1.9%). Last night they got just 249, and their share of the vote was 0.9%.

Q: Are there any other factors that made a difference?

There weren’t any polls carried out in Oldham (because political polling is rather out of favour at the moment, given what happened at the general election). If there had been polling showing Labour clearly ahead, journalists would have recalibrated their expectations.

And Labour may have chosen to downplay expectations, on the grounds that it is much easier to get activists to campaign if they think there is a risk of their party losing. This happened in the Glenrothes byelection in 2008 and Oldham is similar. In Glenrothes the SNP thought they had a real chance of taking this safe Labour seat, but on the night Labour held on with a majority of almost 7,000, which was much larger than the pundits expected.

Q: So what lessons should we learn from Oldham?

The usual ones, that in byelections candidates matter, and that being organised matters even more. Nigel Farage’s complaints about postal voting are a tribute to the efficiency of the Labour machine. In addition we can add, that the opposition can win byelections even when it is divided at Westminster so long as the fundamentals on the ground are sound.

Q: And are there any lessons we shouldn’t take away from Oldham?

Yes. This contest was neither an endorsement or a rejection of Corbyn’s politics because his leadership never became the issue. At a general election his leadership and his policies will be deciding factors, and Oldham tells us next to nothing about what impact they might have.

And, although Oldham was spectacularly bad for Ukip, it would be too soon to conclude that the Ukip threat to Labour in working class areas in the north is fading. Stephen Bush was very good on this at the Staggers yesterday. Glenrothes was a serious setback for the SNP. But seven years later it took the seat - and most of the rest of Scotland too.
 
The Guardian have turned into a bit of a joke right now. They ran an embarrassing special where one of their obnoxious 'journalists' went into Oldham and selectively interviewed folks calling Corbyn a 'nobhead', while discussing the downfall of the Labour party with Nigel feckin Farage. :wenger:

It was painful viewing and a new low for the paper:



They look pretty stupid now.
 
Corbyn may alienate some voters, but he attracts others too.

Well no shit, Sherlock. This is as bad as those 'Five Bloody Obvious Things We Supposedly Learned' football items.
 
Well no shit, Sherlock. This is as bad as those 'Five Bloody Obvious Things We Supposedly Learned' football items.
No need to take it out on Mockney.
 
I'm quite surprised by the margin - but I still expect him to be gone within a year... May elections to come, trident maingate next year as well so I don't think its going to get any easier for him.
I'm not .Your hatred of all things Corbyn as blinded you of that.The only poll that matters is the one at the ballot box and all he as to do is to keep on engaging with the people while the media continue with their scaremongering .