Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Pav1878 said:
I think you misunderstand me.

The words of Russia mean nothing to me either. My point is should we be believing the rhetoric from either side?

the conduct of the US in aiding and abetting Israel’s onslaught in Gaza and the gaslighting associated with it, surely leaves open the possibility they may be gaslighting us on Russia too?

and I agree that there has been an appalling double standard when it comes to Ukraine and Gaza. Ukraine flags flying all over the UK and on government buildings but not one Palestinian flag.

I’m not trying to diminish the Ukrainian cause at all, although I do take exception to the fact that Ukraine seems to support Israel which makes no sense to me when they should feel most affinity for the Palestinians. Maybe because they side with them because they are white too? Who knows?
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It's because the Israelis are in a proxy war with Iran (and by extension Russia) just as Ukraine is. It's actually not at all complicated and a perfectly reasonable position to take when you're in an existential war.

To not believe anything any government says doesn't make you clever, even when they're all lying. They all say true things sometimes, what makes you clever is picking out the bits that are true and knitting them together.
 
Pav1878 said:
A bit of a simplification don’t you think?
IMO there is evil leadership at the top of every ‘major’ country, be it Biden, Sunak, Satanyahu or Putin. They can all take that prize.
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No, I don't think it's a simplification. Putin has agency and made a very deliberate choice to invade Ukraine, a sovereign country.
 
Pav1878 said:
I think you misunderstand me.

The words of Russia mean nothing to me either. My point is should we be believing the rhetoric from either side?

the conduct of the US in aiding and abetting Israel’s onslaught in Gaza and the gaslighting associated with it, surely leaves open the possibility they may be gaslighting us on Russia too?

and I agree that there has been an appalling double standard when it comes to Ukraine and Gaza. Ukraine flags flying all over the UK and on government buildings but not one Palestinian flag.

I’m not trying to diminish the Ukrainian cause at all, although I do take exception to the fact that Ukraine seems to support Israel which makes no sense to me when they should feel most affinity for the Palestinians.
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Zelensky came out recently offering aid to Gaza and said he supports two states, Israel and Palestine: https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelensky-ukraine-recognizes-both-israel-101710116.html

One might argue it's optics. You're free to make that argument. I don't know his true intentions here.
 
VorZakone said:
Zelensky came out recently offering aid to Gaza and said he supports two states, Israel and Palestine: https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelensky-ukraine-recognizes-both-israel-101710116.html

One might argue it's optics. You're free to make that argument. I don't know his true intentions here.
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I would wager it’s nothing but optics.

the Ukrainian people I’ve seen interviewed outside of Ukraine seem to support Israel. I think race and the fact there is a large Jewish population in Ukraine has something to do with it.

and quite possibly because Islamophobia is inherent in Western societies
 
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TwoSheds said:
It's because the Israelis are in a proxy war with Iran (and by extension Russia) just as Ukraine is. It's actually not at all complicated and a perfectly reasonable position to take when you're in an existential war.

To not believe anything any government says doesn't make you clever, even when they're all lying. They all say true things sometimes, what makes you clever is picking out the bits that are true and knitting them together.
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I don’t think your average Ukrainian is thinking of who is in a proxy war with who. I think it comes down to ethnicity and Islamophobia. Also, even if proxy wars came into the thinking of the Ukrainian government, why would they not show solidarity with a people who are facing their own existential threat in the Palestinians? Why wouldn’t they support those who are suffering a genocide? In my book proxy wars go out the window when it cometo humanitarian matters.

I didn’t say not believing what governments say makes me clever. Knitting together the truth would be great, but how do you know for sure that what you are picking out is the truth?
 
Pav1878 said:
And what are your thoughts on Western leaders?
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I'd say I'm not impressed by leaders of the big Western nations. Sunak, Scholz, Biden, Macron, it's all meh. I've been somewhat warming up to Macron lately though, some recent speeches and statements of his have been good IMO.

Biden has generally been good on domestic economic policies but he's been one of, if not the most pro-Israeli US president in modern history going far beyond what was necessary or reasonable. And it'll be a dark page in his legacy.
 
Pav1878 said:
I would wager it’s nothing but optics.

the Ukrainian people I’ve seen interviewed outside of Ukraine seem to support Israel. I think race and the fact there is a large Jewish population in Ukraine has something to do with it.

and quite possibly because Islamophobia is inherent in Western societies
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But there's also this.

More than 300 Ukrainian scholars, activists and artists express their solidarity with Palestinians in an open letter.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/8/ukrainian-letter-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian

But it doesn't necessarily matter in the grand scheme of things, there'll be varied opinions in all countries on a particular issue. It doesn't have to mean that one resorts to explaining away Russian or Israeli aggression. Not saying you do that by the way.
 
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Pav1878 said:
I don’t think your average Ukrainian is thinking of who is in a proxy war with who. I think it comes down to ethnicity and Islamophobia. Also, even if proxy wars came into the thinking of the Ukrainian government, why would they not show solidarity with a people who are facing their own existential threat in the Palestinians? Why wouldn’t they support those who are suffering a genocide? In my book proxy wars go out the window when it cometo humanitarian matters.

I didn’t say not believing what governments say makes me clever. Knitting together the truth would be great, but how do you know for sure that what you are picking out is the truth?
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On the first bit, it's easy to say until the bad guy offers to help you not get bombed.

On the second, you don't, that's just how life goes. Nobody ever said it would be easy or nice all the time, you just have to do your best to understand it all and hope you're doing a good job.
 
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
 
Kaos said:
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
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No, just a marxist from long-dead era of British politics that has no place in modern Britain or the world.
 
Kaos said:
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
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The gutter/corporate press have a villain that a lot of the public dislike as well and will use him as a punching bag till the end of time. That he represents the far left is a great coincidence or the reason they hate him depending on how you see it.
 
Kaos said:
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
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They just want the good days back.

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Grinner said:
So you're quite sure Corbyn would have supported Ukraine?
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German exports have increased to the countries the surround Russia. Britain is doing the same with things like drone equipment and heavy machinery

The average age of a Ukrainian solider is 40 if not older and they have loss lots of ground that they will unlikely be able to take back. Western “support” was increasing arms sales, destroying Ukrainian labour and pushing more privatisation in that economy.

On the Corbyn point. Ex British military talked about a coup if Corbyn won and serving British soldiers used pictures of Corbyn as target practice. Had Labour won in 2017 or 2019 then the British state and the capitalist class would have wholly shat their brains out and caused a political and economic crisis.

With a Corbyn led Labour government we wouldn’t have never got to stage of pretending a prime minster job is deciding how many times to hit help Ukraine button.
 
Sweet Square said:
They just want the good days back.

1D4C7EB700000578-0-image-a-7_1417751815368.jpg



German exports have increased to the countries the surround Russia. Britain is doing the same with things like drone equipment and heavy machinery

The average age of a Ukrainian solider is 40 if not older and they have loss lots of ground that they will unlikely be able to take back. Western “support” was increasing arms sales, destroying Ukrainian labour and pushing more privatisation in that economy.

On the Corbyn point. Ex British military talked about a coup if Corbyn won and serving British soldiers used pictures of Corbyn as target practice. Had Labour won in 2017 or 2019 then the British state and the capitalist class would have wholly shat their brains out and caused a political and economic crisis.

With a Corbyn led Labour government we wouldn’t have never got to stage of pretending a prime minster job is deciding how many times to hit help Ukraine button.
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Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.

Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
 
Grinner said:
Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.

Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
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I think he just meant to say 'no' but threw a lot of extra in there.
 
Grinner said:
Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.
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Thankfully the British army is shite but outside help is always available and it wouldn’t have gone up against any armed forced. Left winger getting into power and a political/economic crisis following is a repeating story. At the very least a economic crisis would have been very likely.

Grinner said:
Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
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Help has to actual mean something.

There’s political pressure which a PM or a political party can push - recognising a Palestine state and voting in favour of Palestine or material help like stopping arms contracts to companies who sell to Israel. It should of course do all of these things but all of this requires going up against established/powerful political forces. Which tbf I think Corbyn and those around him somewhat understood but well there are big structural reasons why he didn’t win and why his policy platform would have faced immense pressure.

I’m not sure anyone wants to discuss it because it’s nerdy/boring and most just want to cosplay Fukuyama.
 
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Grinner said:
Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.

Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
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No one is even suggesting giving the Palestinians a fraction of the help the Ukrainians are receiving. What we would expect however is to perhaps cease selling arms to a quasi-genocidal state guilty of war crimes, and not to politically purge anyone outspoken about the horror unfolding quite openly. Wonderful if we can actually join the international community in recognising a Palestinian state too. Is that too much to ask?
 
Kaos said:
No one is even suggesting giving the Palestinians a fraction of the help the Ukrainians are receiving. What we would expect however is to perhaps cease selling arms to a quasi-genocidal state guilty of war crimes, and not to politically purge anyone outspoken about the horror unfolding quite openly. Wonderful if we can actually join the international community in recognising a Palestinian state too. Is that too much to ask?
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Are Palestinians still committed to the abolition of Israel as a state?
 
Sweet Square said:
Thankfully the British army is shite but outside help is always available and it wouldn’t have gone up against any armed forced. Left winger getting into power and a political/economic crisis following is a repeating story. At the very least a economic crisis would have been very likely.


Help has to actual mean something.

There’s political pressure which a PM or a political party can push - recognising a Palestine state and voting in favour of Palestine or material help like stopping arms contracts to companies who sell to Israel. It should of course do all of these things but all of this requires going up against established/powerful political forces. Which tbf I think Corbyn and those around him somewhat understood but well there are big structural reasons why he didn’t win and why his policy platform would have faced immense pressure.

I’m not sure anyone wants to discuss it because it’s nerdy/boring and most just want to cosplay Fukuyama.
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Is your argument that help to Ukraine hasn't meant anything?
 
Without Western help Ukraine would have been beaten in the first couple of months. Repressed, murdered and raped.

Judging by Corbyn's response to the nerve agent attack in Salisbury he would have called for peace talks while pondering out loud whether the Moldovan's are worth helping.
 
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Drainy said:
Are Palestinians still committed to the abolition of Israel as a state?
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Yes, some nutters want all Israelis wiped out, best deny the Palestinians their right to a state and help the Israelis finish them off. But Corbyn and Ukraine!
 
Kaos said:
Yes, some nutters want all Israelis wiped out, best deny the Palestinians their right to a state and help the Israelis finish them off. But Corbyn and Ukraine!
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Well that's a decent place to start for a legitimate reason for a different response to their victimisation than Ukraine got, oh and a terrorist atrocity prompting the war
 
Cassidy said:
Are Israelis still committed to driving Palestinians out of Gaza?
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More recently that does appear to be the government policy, but upon it's foundation Israel agreed to a two state solution and that should be the international policy, once Palestine is ready to accept the right of Israel to exist
 
Drainy said:
More recently that does appear to be the government policy, but upon it's foundation Israel agreed to a two state solution and that should be the international policy, once Palestine is ready to accept the right of Israel to exist
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Actually its been the policy for a long time, hence the situation and not just in Gaza (or are the settler camps just a coincidence)
Also, Palestine has already accepted Israel's right to exist under the Palestinian Authority; Palestine is not Hamas, and Palestinian Authority have been cooperating with International law for a long time. It's the Israeli policy that has never accepted a 2 state solution and when they got close to ended up with the assassination of their own leader
 
Drainy said:
Well that's a decent place to start for a legitimate reason for a different response to their victimisation than Ukraine got, oh and a terrorist atrocity prompting the war
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Ukranians are white and palestinians are not. When putin was bombing brown people to kingdom come no one gave many fecks.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Without Western help Ukraine would have been beaten in the first couple of months. Repressed, murdered and raped.

Judging by Corbyn's response to the nerve agent attack in Salisbury he would have called for peace talks while pondering out loud whether the Moldovan's are worth helping.
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Corbyn words mean nothing. It's kinda like hearing the portuguese communist party regurgitating the peace trope all the time. Putin actually laughs at that. They are the useful idiots. I'd like to see them saying that to an ukranian just so that they would hear their responses.

Without Western help Ukraine would be long gone and Putin would be probably testing the resolve with another country. They really think this is about Nato expansion. Not that Putin is a blood thirsty, power grabbing, ruthless dictator. Russia attacks Ukraine, Georgia, sows unrest all over Europe but we should trust Putin in peace talks. Those days are long gone and if Trump is elected it won't matter anyways.
 
Yesterday there was a report that around 20,000 Palestinian children are missing with a lot likely to be trapped beneath rubble and buried in unmarked graves.

Anyone defending Israel is a lost cause.
 
Drainy said:
Well that's a decent place to start for a legitimate reason for a different response to their victimisation than Ukraine got, oh and a terrorist atrocity prompting the war
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Sure, if we only kept receipts from October 7th. What of the decades of occupation, ethnic cleansing, state-sponsored settler terrorism, subjugation and apartheid in the West Bank too then? You'd think tens of thousands of murdered Palestinian children would elicit some form of response, but apparently not.

The PA have stated they were willing to accept an Israeli state. The question is will the Israelis ever accept finally declaring their borders and accepting a Palestinian state? Or will they throw in dozens of ridiculous stipulations to kill the idea like they often do.

Going back to the original topic - anyone who by this point wants to continue selling weapons to Israel, purging any dissenting voices and clearly shows no concern for the disgraceful and catastrophic human suffering inflicted on the Palestinians is on the same moral plane as the likes of Putin. You simply cannot tarnish those with the Ukraine abstention brush while endorsing those who would rather get into bed with a quasi-genocidal state.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yesterday there was a report that around 20,000 Palestinian children are missing with a lot likely to be trapped beneath rubble and buried in unmarked graves.

Anyone defending Israel is a lost cause.
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Are your shits only being given for Palestinians?

Here's a handy guide for your outrage. I'm sure you can find ways to link them all to Starmer somehow.

https://www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk
 
As someone who's not really an expert on him, his bad foreign policy positions seem misguided rather than deliberately malicious which is different from literally anyone who supports Israel.
 
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