Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

:lol: that's exactly what you said when trying to argue the other way that it wouldn't make a difference.

Anyway, we don't need estimates. We have France and Sweden. We know people will leave.

We also have situations in which taxes on things such as alcohol and cigarettes have forced people across borders to purchase goods.

That's before even looking at the fact that reducing the top rate of tax actually increased tax receipts. The same with Ireland having a greater proportion of tax take being corporation tax despite lower rates.

We're currently at the tip of the Laffer curve.
 
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Great series of posts, I agree with all of them. Including Sweet's, Momentum Labour won't win over those interested in fiscal responsibility, as your own post shows you find the very subject laughable.

There are loopholes need closing, but the point about existing wealth is a good one.

The problem about taxing existing wealth is that almost everybody has some. A lot of people have benefited from the huge rise in asset prices over the last decades. Its all well and good everybody crying about 'the rich' and the high income earners but its a different story when those people think they might have to pay a bit more themselves too.
 
:lol: that's exactly what you said when trying to argue the other way that it wouldn't make a difference.

Anyway, we don't need estimates. We have France and Sweden. We know people will leave.

No. I was referring to a factual study that had been carried out on the migration stats for every million dollar earner in the US.
 
The problem about taxing existing wealth is that almost everybody has some. A lot of people have benefited from the huge rise in asset prices over the last decades. Its all well and good everybody crying about 'the rich' and the high income earners but its a different story when those people think they might have to pay a bit more themselves too.
I think we all get people don't like paying taxes, and some can't get beyond that, there's nothing more to it for them, but the rest of us think about what's fair and hopefully what works.
 
The problem about taxing existing wealth is that almost everybody has some. A lot of people have benefited from the huge rise in asset prices over the last decades. Its all well and good everybody crying about 'the rich' and the high income earners but its a different story when those people think they might have to pay a bit more themselves too.

Not true at all, I'm a higher rate payer and would happily pay more. Many Labour members are in the same situation.

I've yet to read tax arguments on here and it not seem true that whatever the rate people would argue it's irresponsible to go higher. If the Tories lowered it 10 years in a row and Labour wanted to put it back to what it was just last year they'd be the same outcry. It's not the rates people have issue with it's the increase.
 
Not true at all, I'm a higher rate payer and would happily pay more. Many Labour members are in the same situation.

I've yet to read tax arguments on here and it not seem true that whatever the rate people would argue it's irresponsible to go higher. If the Tories lowered it 10 years in a row and Labour wanted to put it back to what it was just last year they'd be the same outcry. It's not the rates people have issue with it's the increase.

Everybody's definition of what is more and what is acceptable is different.

Where I live now has a wealth tax on global assets. Because of some loopholes it costs me a few hundred quid. If those loopholes were closed it would cost me about 10k a year. I'd leave. Others wouldn't, and others would have already gone on the first 5k.
 
The problem is that the austerity measures employed from 2010 onwards which came under the guise of fiscal responsibility essentially meant punishing ordinary people for the mistakes and greed of rich bankers and the like. Why should ordinary people accept that sort of politics instead of voting for people who instead offer them much more?

Do you agree or not that there has to be some correlation between tax revenues and expenditure? We can debate the level of correlation and its phasing, but in general?

Austerity happened because tax revenues dropped like a stone, mainly from the banking and housing sectors. Maybe the mistake was the govt betting so much of spending on what turned out to be an unreliable source of revenue? Or in your words "rewarding ordinary people from the greed of rich bankers".
 
Not true at all, I'm a higher rate payer and would happily pay more. Many Labour members are in the same situation.

I've yet to read tax arguments on here and it not seem true that whatever the rate people would argue it's irresponsible to go higher. If the Tories lowered it 10 years in a row and Labour wanted to put it back to what it was just last year they'd be the same outcry. It's not the rates people have issue with it's the increase.

I kind of agree, though there are thresholds. I think the real issue is whether people trust the party spending those taxes. If people believe that the party will simply waste the money, then they’ll resist any increases in the amount taken. They may justify that feeling with some post hoc rationalisation, about laffer curves or whatever, but then we’re all guilty of that at times. Labour already have a harder time getting people trust them with money for various reasons. As their tax and spending promises increase that trust falls further and people push back more.
 
Do you agree or not that there has to be some correlation between tax revenues and expenditure? We can debate the level of correlation and its phasing, but in general?

Austerity happened because tax revenues dropped like a stone, mainly from the banking and housing sectors. Maybe the mistake was the govt betting so much of spending on what turned out to be an unreliable source of revenue? Or in your words "rewarding ordinary people from the greed of rich bankers".

There was nothing inescapable about austerity. It was a political choice borne out of ideological convictions; it was never an economic necessity, and certainly not to the extent that it was imposed by Osborne.
 
There was nothing inescapable about austerity. It was a political choice borne out of ideological convictions; it was never an economic necessity, and certainly not to the extent that it was imposed by Osborne.
Yep. Debt increased from 2010 anyway. It was austerity for the people and public services while corporation tax for businesses was reduced.
 
How, how are we still having the same austerity argument?!? Have people really not figured it out yet i despair.

The deficit level was caused by the recession but still wasn't historically frightening and austerity was nothing more than a con for targeted cuts.
 
How, how are we still having the same austerity argument?!? Have people really not figured it out yet i despair.

The deficit level was caused by the recession but still wasn't historically frightening and austerity was nothing more than a con for targeted cuts.
It kind of was historically frightening. The following is a graph (top row) which shows just how big it was - it was the biggest as a % of gdp since the end of the war. We’d lost a large chunk of revenue, permanently. There has to be some correlation between revenue and expenditure. Now was there some politics around austerity? Yes. Could we have maybe borrowed more for longer, to give the economy time to recover faster? Perhaps. But there’s no way we could have borrowed £150bn a year indefinitely.
 
Not true at all, I'm a higher rate payer and would happily pay more. Many Labour members are in the same situation.

I've yet to read tax arguments on here and it not seem true that whatever the rate people would argue it's irresponsible to go higher. If the Tories lowered it 10 years in a row and Labour wanted to put it back to what it was just last year they'd be the same outcry. It's not the rates people have issue with it's the increase.

True. But it is also true that whatever the rate is, there’s always an argument that it should be higher.
 
It kind of was historically frightening. The following is a graph (top row) which shows just how big it was - it was the biggest as a % of gdp since the end of the war. We’d lost a large chunk of revenue, permanently. There has to be some correlation between revenue and expenditure. Now was there some politics around austerity? Yes. Could we have maybe borrowed more for longer, to give the economy time to recover faster? Perhaps. But there’s no way we could have borrowed £150bn a year indefinitely.

Mate.
You are putting forward the same arguments here in the US that the Republicans paint.

Cut benefits to reduce the National Debt.
The fact is if we do not invest in Health care, Education and Social Security (Yes. They are investments because a health educated population is needed to grow the economy.)

Giving tax cuts and countless wars, which the same people are responsible for are the real reasons why the National Debt grows.

EDIT:
I meant Tax Cuts to the top earners.
 
It kind of was historically frightening. The following is a graph (top row) which shows just how big it was - it was the biggest as a % of gdp since the end of the war. We’d lost a large chunk of revenue, permanently. There has to be some correlation between revenue and expenditure. Now was there some politics around austerity? Yes. Could we have maybe borrowed more for longer, to give the economy time to recover faster? Perhaps. But there’s no way we could have borrowed £150bn a year indefinitely.

Yeah i meant to say spending to contrast austerity doh.

Indefinitely is a very misleading word to use, recessions take out your revenue yes but economies recover. You will always see spending increase as a % of GDP when a recession hits (obvious statement is obvious) and in turn deficits will go up. You can use that moment for political narrative as some do but most know it's just natural flow.

Our debt level on a historical basis was and remains low comparatively as does debt payments as % of gdp.
 
How, how are we still having the same austerity argument?!? Have people really not figured it out yet i despair.

The deficit level was caused by the recession but still wasn't historically frightening and austerity was nothing more than a con for targeted cuts.

FYI I didn't and don't support the depth of cuts that were made. I agree it was a political choice and before Brexit took over the language being used against those on benefits and immigrants to justify the cuts was shocking.

I just think, much like the myth that Labour caused the economic crisis, it's also a bit of a myth that we could have just carried on as normal in 2010 and ignored the £152bn deficit.
 
FYI I didn't and don't support the depth of cuts that were made. I agree it was a political choice and before Brexit took over the language being used against those on benefits and immigrants to justify the cuts was shocking.

I just think, much like the myth that Labour caused the economic crisis, it's also a bit of a myth that we could have just carried on as normal in 2010 and ignored the £152bn deficit.

You are such a Tory.
 
As you would imagine I disagree with your economics. I do agree though that government investment absolutely has provided a foundation to a lot of the great technologies we have today, that's unquestionable. The question is whether those technologies (and others on top) would have been made had that money remained in the hands of business and entrepreneurs, rather than been stolen by government in the form of taxation. My view is they would have.

In terms of the deaths in hospitals you're acting like this isn't happening anyway in awful NHS hospitals around the country. Likewise deaths that needlessly occur on our dreadful road system every day.

I agree by the way that laws against monopolisation should be regulated more vociferously, however creating public sector monopolies is counterproductive to that.

The market we mustn't forget is merely a reflection of individuals. If consumers demand green products, they will get them. If they prioritise cheaper goods instead then they will get these. My faith is in individuals, not in business (business merely reflects those individuals).

The economics in my post weren't "mine". Econ 101 was a compuslory college course, and this is what I remember from it. Inelastic goods, the conditions for perfect competition, etc are all concepts not from Marx but from mainstream marginal economics. I used soe basic concepts from there to show what (successful) market competition means. If I wanted to be ideological, I would point out that a series of privatisations of basic services in the UK have resulted in a lack of competition, rising prices, and often worse serivice.

The excess death in the current NHS could very probably be solved by higher expenditure, to bring UK spending in line with more privatised systems like Switzerland or France:
2CXewQZ.png

(y-axis = percent GDP expenditure on healthcare; x-axis = percent of govt expenditure in total healthcare spending).


On your statement about monopolies - you don't seem to have read Econ 101 itself. Firstly the natural formation of monopolies (for example in the late 19th and early 20th century oil industry) shows that despite open competition (including the building of private railways) and the utter lack of government regulation, the market can tend towards larger size, less choice, super-profits etc. Secondly you seem to implicitly be saying, ignoring every point in my previous post, that competition, specifically market competition, is a cure-all and monopolies are necessarily bad. As a counterexample, you have the remarkable rapid gains in human health outcomes seen by monopolies as varied as the Soviet system, the Cuban system, and the NHS. None of these were subject to market competition, and they were at times greatly underfunded compared to others, yet produced better results. The same can be said for some transport companies like the publicly-owned trains in France. Again, no comeptition, great outcomes.

This doesn't mean the converse is necessarily true. But the trite, just-so, story about markets and competition and optimisation has a ton of caveats, holes, and failures too.
 
Yeah i meant to say spending to contrast austerity doh.

Indefinitely is a very misleading word to use, recessions take out your revenue yes but economies recover. You will always see spending increase as a % of GDP when a recession hits (obvious statement is obvious) and in turn deficits will go up. You can use that moment for political narrative as some do but most know it's just natural flow.

Our debt level on a historical basis was and remains low comparatively as does debt payments as % of gdp.
Austerity is the idea that the 2008 financial crash was caused by Wolverhampton having too many libraries.” Alexei Sayle
 
Mate.
You are putting forward the same arguments here in the US that the Republicans paint.

Cut benefits to reduce the National Debt.
The fact is if we do not invest in Health care, Education and Social Security (Yes. They are investments because a health educated population is needed to grow the economy.)

Giving tax cuts and countless wars, which the same people are responsible for are the real reasons why the National Debt grows.

EDIT:
I meant Tax Cuts to the top earners.
Not really. Republicans don’t care about the deficit at all.
 
Austerity is the idea that the 2008 financial crash was caused by Wolverhampton having too many libraries.” Alexei Sayle
It’s a nice line but the financial crash wasn’t caused by govt spending. But govt spending was affected by it.
 
The SNP look like they are now moving towards the prospect of installing Corbyn as temporary PM via a vote of no confidence given Johnson has made clear his readiness to ignore the law once again. It's going to place the Lib Dems in a very awkward position. Will Swinson budge?
 
The SNP look like they are now moving towards the prospect of installing Corbyn as temporary PM via a vote of no confidence given Johnson has made clear his readiness to ignore the law once again. It's going to place the Lib Dems in a very awkward position. Will Swinson budge?
Seems fairly obvious what should happen - vote of no confidence in Johnson, followed by a vote of confidence in Corb support by Libs and SNP. If that fails to win enough ex Tories, Lab find an alternative temporary figure.
 
Seems fairly obvious what should happen - vote of no confidence in Johnson, followed by a vote of confidence in Corb support by Libs and SNP. If that fails to win enough ex Tories, Lab find an alternative temporary figure.

Yes. Except that they need to agree the plan to it's conclusion. The stakes are high and can't risk failure caused by someone getting greedy.
 
The SNP look like they are now moving towards the prospect of installing Corbyn as temporary PM via a vote of no confidence given Johnson has made clear his readiness to ignore the law once again. It's going to place the Lib Dems in a very awkward position. Will Swinson budge?

I can see it happening. She can always paint it as ‘it’s this or no-deal and Brexit is the more damaging of the two options’. Plus it’s only temporary anyway. She’ll have to be very careful though not to scare off her moderate Tories.
 
I can see it happening. She can always paint it as ‘it’s this or no-deal and Brexit is the more damaging of the two options’. Plus it’s only temporary anyway. She’ll have to be very careful though not to scare off her moderate Tories.

Corbyn will also need plenty of the actual homeless Tories as well though. It's not gonna be an easy proposition for them to give Corbyn a go even with the pressure of all other parties acquiescing.

Like Ubik says it's maybe worth a shot at first then Corbyn standing aside if it doesn't work. Not sure what level of brinkmanship Corbyn and the rest would be willing to engage in as the seconds tick by though. Him refusing to budge and the rest refusing to accept his stewardship remains a very possible outcome.
 
Corbyn will also need plenty of the actual homeless Tories as well though. It's not gonna be an easy proposition for them to give Corbyn a go even with the pressure of all other parties acquiescing.

Like Ubik says it's maybe worth a shot at first then Corbyn standing aside if it doesn't work. Not sure what level of brinkmanship Corbyn and the rest would be willing to engage in as the seconds tick by though. Him refusing to budge and the rest refusing to accept his stewardship remains a very possible outcome.

Good point, and the major parties agreeing to him doing it might well then push him into agreeing to a compromise when the homeless Tories shoot it down. This could work.
 
Good point, and the major parties agreeing to him doing it might well then push him into agreeing to a compromise when the homeless Tories shoot it down. This could work.

I'd be very, very surprised if Corbyn agreed to step aside for someone else to lead the government because of the objections of some Lib Dems/independent Tories.
 
I'd be very, very surprised if Corbyn agreed to step aside for someone else to lead the government because of the objections of some Lib Dems/independent Tories.
But why, if the sole aim is to prevent no deal and call an election? He's surely not gonna refuse to support anyone else just to make sure he's goes into an election with the clout of being PM?
 
The remain tories plus Swingson will never say yes to Corbyn anyway. Because they genuinely think Corbyn is Lenin reincarnated and more importantly Corbyn being caretake PM is too sensible a move for this lot to vote for it.
 
But why, if the sole aim is to prevent no deal and call an election? He's surely not gonna refuse to support anyone else just to make sure he's goes into an election with the clout of being PM?

Because of this. If that's the case, then why would MPs object to supporting him if it's agreed that that is the only purpose? Aside from the principle and the absurdity of it, I do not believe he could contemplate it due to the damage it would do to his credibility. I don't see how his position as leader could remain tenable in such a circumstance.
 
The remain tories plus Swingson will never say yes to Corbyn anyway. Because they genuinely think Corbyn is Lenin reincarnated and more importantly Corbyn being caretake PM is too sensible a move for this lot to vote for it.

I do worry that Swinson would prefer to align herself with the Tories if she could secure a softer Brexit rather than contemplate any circumstance that installed Corbyn in No. 10, even if he pledged to revoke Article 50.
 
I kind of agree, though there are thresholds. I think the real issue is whether people trust the party spending those taxes. If people believe that the party will simply waste the money, then they’ll resist any increases in the amount taken. They may justify that feeling with some post hoc rationalisation, about laffer curves or whatever, but then we’re all guilty of that at times. Labour already have a harder time getting people trust them with money for various reasons. As their tax and spending promises increase that trust falls further and people push back more.
We truly aren't. I would be willing to pay more tax to improve hospitals, schools and the emergency services. I also trust Labour spending it more than I do the Tories.
 
Because of this. If that's the case, then why would MPs object to supporting him if it's agreed that that is the only purpose? Aside from the principle and the absurdity of it, I do not believe he could contemplate it due to the damage it would do to his credibility. I don't see how his position as leader could remain tenable in such a circumstance.
Because they're Tories and hate Corbyn. Like he hates them. I mean maybe they'd surprise everyone and back him, but probably not, and there needs to be a contingency rather than a plan to walk us off the cliff edge in order to save face.

I'm not sure how you can complain at Lib Dems for not backing him and simultaneously not complain at Corbyn for not backing someone else. The Lib Dems should back him, if they don't they're twats, and if that fails then Corbyn should back someone else, and if he doesn't he's as big a twat as the those that refused to back him.
 
I do worry that Swinson would prefer to align herself with the Tories if she could secure a softer Brexit rather than contemplate any circumstance that installed Corbyn in No. 10, even if he pledged to revoke Article 50.
Yeah I would be surprised if she does anything constructive with the labour party. Its in her interest to not work with Labour as her part of her goal is take away gullible labour ultra remain voters(hence the whole 'revoke'' Brexit shite). Plus Swinson isn't a standard liberal, she is on the right of the party and basically a tory.