Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

think the EHRC are far better placed to make that decision - you know given thats their legal role

also your seriousley saying vote labour based on that website when this is what they have to say about labour



pretty awful stuff Im sure you agree (the EHRC certainly seem to)

Has a formal complaint been raised to the EHRC asking them to investigate the Green party? Unless you've evidence that they've reviewed and decided not to investigate I'm not sure why you're taking such an aggressive tone.

I'm well aware that Labour has an anti-semitism issue within it's membership but it is small so it doesn't stop me supporting the party (not the view of every member). The complaints procedures in place are inadequate for any issue that isn't basic and they need to sort it out.
 
Ah, so you're the enlightened ones and everyone else has just fallen for negative media spin. Gotcha.
No politician is perfect and any vote is a compromise in the current system. In my opinion.

But, taking just a couple of examples you stated below. There is an argument for looking things it a bit further.

IRA:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland
Corbyn maintained links with Sinn Fein to work for a resolution to the armed conflict.

It is now known that the British government maintained contact to the IRA leadership through a secret back channel for much of this period too.

Hamas&Hezbollah:
I assume you mean when he referred to them as friends. He has said he was trying to use inclusive language to bring people around the table to find a solution.

“The language I used at that meeting was actually here in parliament and it was about encouraging the meeting to go ahead, encouraging there to be a discussion about the peace process,” he said.

Asked whether he still regarded Hamas and Hezbollah as “friends”, the Labour leader said: “No. It was inclusive language I used which with hindsight I would rather not have used. I regret using those words, of course.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends
 
Has a formal complaint been raised to the EHRC asking them to investigate the Green party? Unless you've evidence that they've reviewed and decided not to investigate I'm not sure why you're taking such an aggressive tone.

I'm well aware that Labour has an anti-semitism issue within it's membership but it is small so it doesn't stop me supporting the party (not the view of every member). The complaints procedures in place are inadequate for any issue that isn't basic and they need to sort it out.
To the best of my knowledge the ehrc does not list every complaint they receive however the bnp and labour party are the only parties on history who sufficient complaints have been received against by the ehrc to trigger a formal investigation

From the ehrc themselves

.
About the investigation
We contacted The Labour Party after receiving a number of complaints about allegations of antisemitism in the party.

We have carefully considered the response we have received from the Party and have opened a formal investigation.

We are using our powers under the Equality Act to open an investigation, which will look at:

  • whether unlawful acts have been committed by the Party or its employees or agents
  • the steps taken by the Party to implement the recommendations made in the reports on antisemitism by Baroness Royall, the Home Affairs Select Committee and in the Chakrabarti Report
  • whether the Rule Book and the Party’s investigatory and disciplinary processes have enabled or could enable it to deal efficiently and effectively with complaints of race or religion or belief discrimination and racial harassment or victimisation, including whether appropriate sanctions have been or could be applied
  • whether the Party has responded to complaints of unlawful acts in a lawful, efficient and effective manner
Any communications about the investigation may be sent to LPI@equalityhumanrights.com

On that basis I'm not sure how you conclude the greens have a bigger issue with antisemitism
 
Then why have then not met the criteria for an EHRC investigation into racism... you know like the BNP oh and yeah Labour
Its basically your word against the EHRC... I suspect they are a bit better qualified and have access to quite a bit more info than you?
But clearly you must have evidence to libel yourself by publishing such a claim and Im sure you will be collating it to present shorty in a post?

Are you actually saying that anyone not investigated by ehrc is not racist?

You know they have still refused to adopt IHRA right?
 
Are you actually saying that anyone not investigated by ehrc is not racist?

You know they have still refused to adopt IHRA right?
Im saying if the EHRC had recieved sufficient complaints they would have triggered an investigation
If that had happened then you would be perfectly entitled to say - hey look they are just as racist as labour
without that I think labour and their supporters should look internally before (without any real evidence) publishing accusations that the green party have a bigger problem with antisemitism
 
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Im saying if the EHRC had recieved sufficient complaints they would have triggered an investigation
If that had happened then you would be perfectly entitled to say - hey look they are just as racist as labour
without that I think labour and their supporters should look internally before (without any real evidence) publish accusations that the green party have a bigger problem with antisemitism

If this argument holds as much ground as you say, you need to pipe down until we see the outcome of the investigation.

It doesn't of course, and people can make their own conclusions before the ehrc get involved.
 
1. Bolded part: The evolution means multiple deaths due to poor care. Also competition is a dynamic thing not a static process. It is not that after x months, people will know the good from the bad private providers (in that process itself people have died). Players exit the market, others enter it, established ones change their practices, monopolies form, etc. Just because your initial experience with one place is positive does not mean it will continue to be that way. (Additional people die as they keep figuring this out).
Healthcare is not a TV, healthcare demand is mostly price- and supply-inelastic, and it is essential. When you're ill, you are not going from place to place to read Yelp reviews, check ambulance prices, bargain for procedures, ask which scans can be excluded, etc. You may have a relationship with a doctor but the hospital has some prohibitive fees or maybe likes taking an extra X-ray to make more money. In this system, you have to calculate these various things, knowing that they can change over time, and make your best decision, all the whle you're ill and your life might hinge on the outcome. It is pure absurdity.

2. The space program from both the USSR and USA showed the overwhelmingly quick and successful results if governments can throw money and resourcesa at a problem. It is only after the defunding of NASA and the collapse of the USSR that the scientists, trained at government expense, wth government-generated past knowledge, have been absorbed by private industry. India is a country with a notoriously corrupt government, whose space agency can launch satellites at roughly the same rates, sometimes lower, than SpaceX, without having the benefit of a pre-trained workforce.

3. Focusing on actual private sector products: the iPhone, batteries, etc. A lot of the technologies used in mobile phones has come from government departments as varied as the communications industry of the Soviet Union and the US Dept of Defence. No competition. Antibiotics and the polio vaccine was developed by scientists not operating in a competitive market.
So I take massive issue with that line. Does it mean the state can solve all problems? No, but it means the competition is not necessarily the answer.

And in fact this ties in with your posts on climate change. "The rewards are so great the company will solve it." Then why has the cost of solar panels been driven down most prominently by work in Germany and China, both on massive govt subsidies? Where is the plucky startup destroying the field to make a trillion dollars?
You seem to have a very Econ 101 view of what the world looks like, but even there it is made clear that there are many asssumptions to get the fantasy of perfect ompetitive markets. Individual players in most markets are massive, not so small that their effects will not be felt by the aggregate. As shown by Uber and Lyft and Amazon, firms with more resources can operate at a loss to create a barrier for entry into their markets against startups. There has been a lot of talk about information assymetry. Just like that, 3 of 7 assumptions of perfect competition are gone.

No, there are very strong reasons for the market not to solve climate change. The funds, firms and individuals who own the bulk of the market are interested in returns in the short and medium term. This makes sense, to paraphrase, in the long run we are all dead. A who invested in solar in the 90s would be dead before their investment bore fruit in terms of massive profits. B who invested in oil at the same time would be much richer. B would be correct, he was interested in profit maximisation and he got the rewards. The future rewards for investing in solar aren't going to matter to A, he's long dead. Short-term profit thinking dominates a lot of companies, and for good reason. It is profit maximisation in action. The type of firms that can afford to take long-term risks are Google or Amazon, whose existence violates perfect competition.

As you would imagine I disagree with your economics. I do agree though that government investment absolutely has provided a foundation to a lot of the great technologies we have today, that's unquestionable. The question is whether those technologies (and others on top) would have been made had that money remained in the hands of business and entrepreneurs, rather than been stolen by government in the form of taxation. My view is they would have.

In terms of the deaths in hospitals you're acting like this isn't happening anyway in awful NHS hospitals around the country. Likewise deaths that needlessly occur on our dreadful road system every day.

I agree by the way that laws against monopolisation should be regulated more vociferously, however creating public sector monopolies is counterproductive to that.

The market we mustn't forget is merely a reflection of individuals. If consumers demand green products, they will get them. If they prioritise cheaper goods instead then they will get these. My faith is in individuals, not in business (business merely reflects those individuals).
 
Predominantly his anti-Semitism. I can't in good conscience vote for a party who's leader I believe to be a racist. His handling of Brexit since 2016 has been poor, and they've changed positions numerous times, confusing everyone in the process. His support for terrorist regimes (IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah). His (paid) appearances on Iran's propaganda channel. His shift of Labour from an electable, moderate party into an unelectable, far left one.

I just don't think he is a very nice man, and I find him to be quite sinister. He spoke of a more open and honest politics but he's just as bad as the rest of them when asked difficult questions.

I could write whole lists of reasons why Corbyn doesn't hate jews, why 'support' for the IRA wasn't a bad thing(Its not your country), why the best chance for the UK to remain in the EU is with Labour and finally why Labour isn't a far left party. But as you said Corbyn is not a very nice man.

.Climate Change well Climate Breakdown(Which is caused by yes the current model of Capitalism) is destroying the world as we know it, there is only one party that is putting forward anything near a real plan but as you said Corbyn is not a very nice man.

.The genocide in Yemen has not ended and is turning into one of the biggest disaster in modern human history. And yet there is only one party that has anything near a humane foreign policy and would stop selling weapons to the Saudi Monarchy but as you said Corbyn is not a very nice man.

.Britain is the most unequal country in Europe. 4 million people live in deep poverty, to the point where there are now UN reports.
But as you said Corbyn is not a very nice man.

Alright you get the point I guess, now can you see why I'm so condescending at times ? We are literally seeing and living in two different worlds. If Labours Green New Deal and fight against Climate Change(Which still doesn't go far enough)can't win you over and a appearance on Iranian tv in the 2000's completely fecks up any chance of your vote, then what hope have I got ? For you(And this applies to many people on here)to back a Corbyn/Left Labour party would require a fundamental shift in how you see and live in the world, which simply isn't possible to do a football forum(Can we still can this place a football forum ?). And this isn't me making a moral argument, it certainly doesn't make anyone bad, stupid or god forbid a tory to worry about a left labour party but it show that the crisis we are in and the solutions needed are pushing the limits of this left and liberal' coalition.

Speaking for myself, those reasons are

* Remain is a pre-requisite for any party I'd vote for now. For me to vote for a party that "may or may not" back Remain is like asking me to vote for a party that may or may not oppose austerity.
Its really isn't at all. Anyway have a listen to Yanis



14:30 to 24:00
 
To the best of my knowledge the ehrc does not list every complaint they receive however the bnp and labour party are the only parties on history who sufficient complaints have been received against by the ehrc to trigger a formal investigation

From the ehrc themselves



On that basis I'm not sure how you conclude the greens have a bigger issue with antisemitism

I'm just saying if we take those numbers at face value and it seems a good source. 5 in 50k membership for the Greens, 39 in 500k for Labour and 5 in 100k for the Lib Dems.

It's fair to say the greens have an issue comparative to the size of their party isn't it? Of course they're a small party so won't have as many complaints to the EHRC.

39 in 500k is a ridiculously small percentage though isn't it? You'd expect 39k the way some speak.

I'd be shocked if the Tories didn't have more islamaphobia complaints than that
 
But this is the issue, isn't it?

Corbynites (and I think you're being incredibly disingenuous to pretend this is a left/centre issue in the party) insist there is a master plan stitching it all together and act like it's everyone else's fault that they can't spot it. Everyone else thinks it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes.
Yeah no one see it as some sort of master plan at all. My issue is certain people are actively no trying to even see it as a plan which is just odd.

But let's say it is a master plan and that Remain voters should vote for Labour because Labour will help the country Remain in the EU, how do you convince the Leave voters that you're keen to attract through this policy of neutrality that they should abandon their belief that leaving the UK when the time comes for a referendum on Labour's deal vs Remain?
This



Extending voting rights to all UK residents would give Remain give a massive boost and pretty much the win. If the Remain campaign somehow fecks it up then the blames on them.
 
Maybe the Green Party member who just reported me and threatened legal action can explain the reasons they have for being the only major party (aside from TBP and UKIP) to not adopt the IHRA definition.
 
I think you will find a lot of people have a lot of different reasons

For me two major factors are that I believe the best thing for the UK is to remain in the EU...
I wish to back a party who will offer remain as their prefered option (either via revoke or an unequivocal commitment to backing remain in a subsequent referendum)
i do not trust a a show of hands by a bunch of unelected people in a room chanting ooooh jeremy corbyn to decide on government policy in this regard

Furthermore Id say that as the bar for an EHRC investigation is so high (basically they have to believe they have seen enough evidence that a prosecution is in the public interest as the evidence they have seen shows a probable conviction in a criminal case (i.e. beyond a resonable doubt and that the party has failed to put in place procedures to tackle this)... i think electing a party that is very likley to face criminal prosecution for racism goes againt my core beliefs

Add into that my local Mp is stepping down and I have no faith in the local party which frankly has turned into a 1970's student politics club with an added dose of antisemitism in picking somebody who is capable of fulfilling the duties required of a local MP

Furthermore the local polling and the brexit fudge would indicate that the seat although traditional labour will now break down to a Brexit/ conservatives vs Liberal fight and Id much rather use my vote effectively against farage.

I think corbyn would on a personal level be an unispiring and ineffectual leader

and meh loads more reasons but frankly thats plenty

literally delegates selected / nominated / elected by their local CLP but of course the man planning to vote Lib Dem has no idea how the Labour Party functions
 
literally delegates selected / nominated / elected by their local CLP but of course the man planning to vote Lib Dem has no idea how the Labour Party functions
so a bunch of oooh jeremy corbyn types by show of hand are going to be the ones who pick how the governemnt will campaign in a referendum... does not sound very democratic
At least all the other parties are making their policies clear BEFORE any election
 
Can the Green Party member lurking here explain why their deputy leader retweets anti-semitic cartoons?
 
Yeah no one see it as some sort of master plan at all. My issue is certain people are actively no trying to even see it as a plan which is just odd.


This



Extending voting rights to all UK residents would give Remain give a massive boost and pretty much the win. If the Remain campaign somehow fecks it up then the blames on them.



Wait a minute, wait a minute..

Giving these rights will convince Leave voters.. are you quite sure about this and Remain should now win easily.

Does this mean that the 2017 Labour Manifesto and I quote: "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union." is obsolete and Labour have had a complete turn around.

Are you feeling OK, getting worried.
 
But this is the issue, isn't it?

Corbynites (and I think you're being incredibly disingenuous to pretend this is a left/centre issue in the party) insist there is a master plan stitching it all together and act like it's everyone else's fault that they can't spot it. Everyone else thinks it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

But let's say it is a master plan and that Remain voters should vote for Labour because Labour will help the country Remain in the EU, how do you convince the Leave voters that you're keen to attract through this policy of neutrality that they should abandon their belief that leaving the UK when the time comes for a referendum on Labour's deal vs Remain?

I would have thought that there are some sane brexiters who don't actually want no-deal and would take a referendum that includes a deal over the alternative of Tory chaos.

Similarly there are remainers who would prefer a referendum over straight revoke as they think we should respect the original vote to at least some extent.
 
Ah I see we are back to blaming the media influence and calling everyone else secret lib dem voters.

And around we go.
Just waiting for Dobba to arrive with a few laughing emojis and a snarky comment or two then we'll be there.
 
No politician is perfect and any vote is a compromise in the current system. In my opinion.

But, taking just a couple of examples you stated below. There is an argument for looking things it a bit further.

IRA:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland
Corbyn maintained links with Sinn Fein to work for a resolution to the armed conflict.

It is now known that the British government maintained contact to the IRA leadership through a secret back channel for much of this period too.

Hold on... let's be clear about this. Corbyn maintained links with Sinn Fein because he supported their goal of a united ireland. He wasn't some neutral referee trying to find common ground. He was taking their political side at a time when their armed wing was murdering British citizens. The people who were actually working for a resolution to the conflict, eg the SDLP (who also supported a united ireland, but peacefully) - Corbyn didn't have anything to do with them. That's why he is criticised over Northern Ireland - and rightly so.

The British govt maintained contact... in their official capacity as the British govt. They get to do stuff like that. Interestingly, Corbyn wasn't one of the back channels. I wonder why?
 
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Wait a minute, wait a minute..

Giving these rights will convince Leave voters.. are you quite sure about this and Remain should now win easily.
You simply out number the leave voters.

Does this mean that the 2017 Labour Manifesto and I quote: "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union." is obsolete and Labour have had a complete turn around.
So a political party can't change its platform ?



Expanding free movement sounds interesting.
 
You simply out number the leave voters.


So a political party can't change its platform ?



Expanding free movement sounds interesting.


It's not me you have to convince but you were quoting me the 2017 manifesto not very long ago. It's not remainers you have to convince either other than you're completing changing policy, which begs the question will Labour completely reverse policy again in another year or two. What you have to convince remainers is that you have a policy and will stick with it. Trust must be at a very low point by traditional Labour voters.

Personally I like these points but I would hazard a guess that the leave section and or anti-immigrants/immigration part of the party may not be so pleased.
 
It's interesting that the Green party - which definitely doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism - are quick in attempting to suppress any such accusations, but aren't interested in engaging with the discussion openly. It should be pretty easy to answer the question of why they refuse to adopt IHRA and why their leaders retweet anti-semitic content.
 
It's not me you have to convince but you were quoting me the 2017 manifesto not very long ago. It's not remainers you have to convince either other than you're completing changing policy, which begs the question will Labour completely reverse policy again in another year or two. What you have to convince remainers is that you have a policy and will stick with it. Trust must be at a very low point by traditional Labour voters.

Are you new to politics?

I do not believe the Conservative policy in its 2017 manifesto was to push for No Deal and remove the whip from MPs who dared to oppose this. I do not believe in 2017 the Lib Dems had committed to revoking Article 50. It's almost as if a party's policy changes according to circumstance/external factors, or big events, such as say an annual conference where members are allowed to push forward and vote on policy proposals.
 
Are you new to politics?

I do not believe the Conservative policy in its 2017 manifesto was to push for No Deal and remove the whip from MPs who dared to oppose this. I do not believe in 2017 the Lib Dems had committed to revoking Article 50. It's almost as if a party's policy changes according to circumstance/external factors, or big events, such as say an annual conference where members are allowed to push forward and vote on policy proposals.

Yes just born and wet behind the ears.

Why are you quoting Conservative or Libdems policy at me.
This is not just a minor change it's a massive change.

However, my point was not about the changing of policy as such but how the Leavers or some of those who were Remainers may now swing to Leave because of it. I.e. it may attract some voters but alienate others or entrench others even more. Thinking a bit further ahead which sometimes proves useful. Remembering that Corbyn is trying to please everyone, seemingly unsuccessfully.
 
Are you new to politics?

I do not believe the Conservative policy in its 2017 manifesto was to push for No Deal and remove the whip from MPs who dared to oppose this. I do not believe in 2017 the Lib Dems had committed to revoking Article 50. It's almost as if a party's policy changes according to circumstance/external factors, or big events, such as say an annual conference where members are allowed to push forward and vote on policy proposals.
Pretty much this.
 
Why are you quoting Conservative or Libdems policy at me.
This is not just a minor change it's a massive change.

However, my point was not about the changing of policy as such but how the Leavers or some of those who were Remainers may now swing to Leave because of it. I.e. it may attract some voters but alienate others or entrench others even more. Thinking a bit further ahead which sometimes proves useful. Remembering that Corbyn is trying to please everyone, seemingly unsuccessfully.

Because they are examples of major shifts in policy, unless you think Labour's shifting stance on FoM is more significant than Lib Dems pledging to revoke A50 or Tories ardently pursuing No Deal? Moreover, it is not a massive change, as it is one more of language than substance. Yes, Labour's previous policy was to end FoM, but that was to only really be in name only. I mean, their proposals for the EU exit-deal include membership of CU and close alignment with Single Market. It's obvious that such an agreement, leaving aside discussions about its feasibility, would be certainly reliant on Labour agreeing to something akin to FoM.
 
Because they are examples of major shifts in policy, unless you think Labour's shifting stance on FoM is more significant than Lib Dems pledging to revoke A50 or Tories ardently pursuing No Deal? Moreover, it is not a massive change, as it is one more of language than substance. Yes, Labour's previous policy was to end FoM, but that was to only really be in name only. I mean, their proposals for the EU exit-deal include membership of CU and close alignment with Single Market. It's obvious that such an agreement, leaving aside discussions about its feasibility, would be certainly reliant on Labour agreeing to something akin to FoM.

You're still missing my point about voters but continuing your line of thought if they are in the single market they have no choice but to accept freedom of movement and in the (not a) customs union they can't do their own deals. Is the policy therefore changing on Brexit as well?
 
You're still missing my point about voters but continuing your line of thought if they are in the single market they have no choice but to accept freedom of movement and in the (not a) customs union they can't do their own deals. Is the policy therefore changing on Brexit as well?

No, I am demonstrating to you that it is a moot point, Mr. Wolf. You're arguing that the electorate will now have doubts about trusting Labour because in 2019 the party membership has voted for a policy that was not in its manifesto for an election in 2017. On that basis, who can the electorate trust? Because in 2017 they voted for Theresa May to bring back a Brexit deal, and now they have Johnson breaking the law and lying to the queen to secure a No Deal exit. In 2017 they voted for Tim Farron and the promise of a second referendum, now they have Swinson and a pledge to revoke Article 50.
 
Why do you keep saying this?
What else is there to say to Paul pointless comments. What was the point of this conversation ?

Yeah no one see it as some sort of master plan at all. My issue is certain people are actively no trying to even see it as a plan which is just odd.


This



Extending voting rights to all UK residents would give Remain give a massive boost and pretty much the win. If the Remain campaign somehow fecks it up then the blames on them.



Wait a minute, wait a minute..

Giving these rights will convince Leave voters.. are you quite sure about this and Remain should now win easily.

Does this mean that the 2017 Labour Manifesto and I quote: "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union." is obsolete and Labour have had a complete turn around.

Are you feeling OK, getting worried.

You simply out number the leave voters.


So a political party can't change its platform ?



Expanding free movement sounds interesting.



It's not me you have to convince but you were quoting me the 2017 manifesto not very long ago. It's not remainers you have to convince either other than you're completing changing policy, which begs the question will Labour completely reverse policy again in another year or two. What you have to convince remainers is that you have a policy and will stick with it. Trust must be at a very low point by traditional Labour voters.

Personally I like these points but I would hazard a guess that the leave section and or anti-immigrants/immigration part of the party may not be so pleased.

Are you new to politics?

I do not believe the Conservative policy in its 2017 manifesto was to push for No Deal and remove the whip from MPs who dared to oppose this. I do not believe in 2017 the Lib Dems had committed to revoking Article 50. It's almost as if a party's policy changes according to circumstance/external factors, or big events, such as say an annual conference where members are allowed to push forward and vote on policy proposals.

Pretty much this.

Pretty much not.

Complete waste of everyone time.
 
No, I am demonstrating to you that it is a moot point, Mr. Wolf. You're arguing that the electorate will now have doubts about trusting Labour because in 2019 the party membership has voted for a policy that was not in its manifesto for an election in 2017. On that basis, who can the electorate trust? Because in 2017 they voted for Theresa May to bring back a Brexit deal, and now they have Johnson breaking the law and lying to the queen to secure a No Deal exit. In 2017 they voted for Tim Farron and the promise of a second referendum, now they have Swinson and a pledge to revoke Article 50.

Personally I wouldn't trust any politician of any party .Trust is part of it but also policy change towards more immigrants and votes for immigrants will surely upset part of the electorate and part of the Labour supporters- my point is that changing policy may lose as many voters as it gains. Trying to walk a tightrope between two opposing factions in one party. The Tories are imploding for the same reason but they still look much more like getting elected despite the incompetence and terrible leadership and downright lies.
 
Personally I wouldn't trust any politician of any party .Trust is part of it but also policy change towards more immigrants and votes for immigrants will surely upset part of the electorate and part of the Labour supporters- my point is that changing policy may lose as many voters as it gains. Trying to walk a tightrope between two opposing factions in one party. The Tories are imploding for the same reason but they still look much more like getting elected despite the incompetence and terrible leadership and downright lies.

I do not disagree about the potential for the policy change to cause a loss of some voters who are worried about immigration, of course that is a risk. I disagreed that it would prompt a lack of trust in Labour though. It's the change itself that will be damaging, not the notion that they are untrustworthy. Hopefully more of the electorate will see the appeal in it than are upset by it, and I'm glad that the party has been compelled to adopt a more proactive and forceful position on immigration, as opposed to having to tiptoe around the issue for fear of upsetting some voters.
 
I do not disagree about the potential for the policy change to cause a loss of some voters who are worried about immigration, of course that is a risk. I disagreed that it would prompt a lack of trust in Labour though. It's the change itself that will be damaging, not the notion that they are untrustworthy. Hopefully more of the electorate will see the appeal in it than are upset by it, and I'm glad that the party has been compelled to adopt a more proactive and forceful position on immigration, as opposed to having to tiptoe around the issue for fear of upsetting some voters.

As I said, I like the policy change - but I won't be voting - trying to put oneself in the mind of a hesitant voter, who are the ones who will decide an election, not the ardent 'don't criticise our leader' voters- tiptoeing is exactly what has been the problem imo.
 
Strange I'm debating sensibly with Bobby which you must be incapable of.
Joker.
What were we debating ?

All I did was point out the idea that extending voting rights to all UK residents would be a massive boost to Remain in another referendum and that its ok for political parties to change policy(But apparently something something I've quoted the 2017 Labour manifesto before ?).

I'll happily engaged in a conversation but I can't do much with this

Pretty much not.
 
What were we debating ?

All I did was point out the idea that extending voting rights to all UK residents would be a massive boost to Remain in another referendum and that its ok for political parties to change policy(But apparently something something I've quoted the 2017 Labour manifesto before ?).

I'll happily engaged in a conversation but I can't do much with this

I was going to discuss the point about changing policy whilst gaining some voters would alienate others and therefore not assume a Remain victory as you seemed to think would be easier , but you can see that with the exchanges with Bobby.

My response below was in response to your similar response which I disagreed with.

Pretty much this.

Pretty much not.
 
I was going to discuss the point about changing policy whilst gaining some voters would alienate others and therefore not assume a Remain victory as you seemed to think would be easier , but you can see that with the exchanges with Bobby.

My response below was in response to your similar response which I disagreed with.

This is why i kept saying to ignore the 6 test based policies because they were always going to be changed by conference as is the Labour way.

I do agree with you that it'll alienate the leavers further. It's a good policy but it's not an electable policy if you're relying on leave voters. Unless and i haven't read the detail this is to align all immigration as that's one area some of the labour leave would like as discussed in this thread.
 
I was going to discuss the point about changing policy whilst gaining some voters would alienate others and therefore not assume a Remain victory as you seemed to think would be easier
Just in terms of a Remain winning another referendum, the gain of extending voting rights to all UK residents will massively out number the people who will be alienated from such polices . Its a simple numbers game once we are at that point(If people want to remain in the EU then the best chance is with a Labour majority, just for this one single policy).

As for a general election, yes possibly but thats where class politics comes into play.

My response below was in response to your similar response which I disagreed with.
Why you disagree would have helped.
 
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