Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[F-Red]

And if Labour only had 15 or so seats in the HoC, I'm sure their Brexit policy would look a hell of a lot different too.

Having a position on what is essentially a binary vote position gives the credibility. Labour have everything to gain by doing so, but for some weird reason they aren't taking the opportunity to oppose the government. If they can't do it, then i would rather someone else step in and hold the government accountable.

Labour have a plan its that you just disagree with it. Which fine whatever but that different than saying Labour have nothing.

Also the Lib Dems are campaigning for a people vote. The revoke stuff(Which will far more unlikely to happen than a Labour government)was to get headlines and energise their base.

They don't really have a plan though, sitting on the fence and making no decision isn't a plan. Asking for a second vote isn't a plan. It's essentially putting a head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass. In times like this, it's clear that people are after leadership. If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.

In your opinion maybe. Lots of Labour constituencies voted leave.

Which is bizarre with the approach of sitting on the fence, he's literally appealing to no one externally apart from loyal people in his party. Frustrating to watch.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You were just being a sarcastic child.

Don't be so touchy

 

[Redlambs]

Corbyn in his conference speech today called for Johnson to resign. But he won't vote against him in a vote of no confidence. And the Labour position isn't unclear at all. Yeah, right.

What's not to get?

They want him out, but they don't want him out. Not yet anyway, they want to wait so brexit is or isn't brexit so they can maybe or maybe not push for a GE.

Perfect sense.

 

[DOTA]

Don't be so touchy

I'm not. Just pointing out why the two letter response you got was no less than your contribution merited.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm not. Just pointing out why the two letter response you got was no less than your contribution merited.

Do I care.

 

[DOTA]

Do I care.

Starting to look a bit like it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Starting to look a bit like it.

Where?

 

[BobbyManc]

Such as losing an election. And more than likely losing the next one.

To this current Tory party.

I mean, I'm not sure what more evidence you need that their fence sitting isn't working and I'm sure you'll try to dress it up and make excuses, but to me that's part of the problem. They keep doing the same old thing, well not doing anything really, they aren't getting in. And people just accept it thinking it will all miraculously change and Labour will find themselves back in power.

Hold on. Labour's position for the last election was not 'no decision'. It was unambiguously to Leave; they pledged to honour the result of the referendum. Moreover, that was a good election result for Labour. A big improvement on Miliband's performance, largest increase in a vote share since Attlee's government, and while having to contend with Brexit and a more hostile media than Miliband's Labour did.

You've literally offered no evidence that their fence sitting isn't working/going to work compared to their other options (the 2017 election is literally not evidence that a stance adopted only after 2017 is not working, and a prediction for an upcoming election is literally not evidence either), and now you're claiming what more do I need. That's the main problem. People making claims with nothing to back it up and dressing it up as fact.

 

[BobbyManc]

Having a position on what is essentially a binary vote position gives the credibility. Labour have everything to gain by doing so, but for some weird reason they aren't taking the opportunity to oppose the government. If they can't do it, then i would rather someone else step in and hold the government accountable.

Blocking No Deal and supporting a second referendum is opposing the government. Just because Corbyn is not coming out waving an EU flag does not mean that Labour are not opposing the government on Brexit.

 

[Red Dreams]

Blocking No Deal and supporting a second referendum is opposing the government. Just because Corbyn is not coming out waving an EU flag does not mean that Labour are not opposing the government on Brexit.

True.

He does not want Brexit to suck the air out of the GE.

By talking about policies that would help people, he wants to differentiate from the other parties.

 

[Red Dreams]

This was better than the TUC speech.

 

[Red Dreams]

Good him bringing up Trump several times.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Having a position on what is essentially a binary vote position gives the credibility. Labour have everything to gain by doing so, but for some weird reason they aren't taking the opportunity to oppose the government. If they can't do it, then i would rather someone else step in and hold the government accountable.



They don't really have a plan though, sitting on the fence and making no decision isn't a plan. Asking for a second vote isn't a plan. It's essentially putting a head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass. In times like this, it's clear that people are after leadership. If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.



Which is bizarre with the approach of sitting on the fence, he's literally appealing to no one externally apart from loyal people in his party. Frustrating to watch.

Having a second referendum is not sitting on the fence.

 

[esmufc07]

Having a second referendum is not sitting on the fence.

They are remaining neutral, it absolutely is sitting on the fence.

 

[esmufc07]

Hold on. Labour's position for the last election was not 'no decision'. It was unambiguously to Leave; they pledged to honour the result of the referendum. Moreover, that was a good election result for Labour. A big improvement on Miliband's performance, largest increase in a vote share since Attlee's government, and while having to contend with Brexit and a more hostile media than Miliband's Labour did.

You've literally offered no evidence that their fence sitting isn't working/going to work compared to their other options (the 2017 election is literally not evidence that a stance adopted only after 2017 is not working, and a prediction for an upcoming election is literally not evidence either), and now you're claiming what more do I need. That's the main problem. People making claims with nothing to back it up and dressing it up as fact.

You forgot to mention they were also helped by the worst run GE campaign from a government in history. That won't happen again.

Still, can't wait to see what excuses are made when Labour fail to win another election. I'm sure the enemies from within and Israel will be blamed.

 

[Smores]

Corbyn in his conference speech today called for Johnson to resign. But he won't vote against him in a vote of no confidence. And the Labour position isn't unclear at all. Yeah, right.

See this is why i say people just moan for the sake of moaning.

How can anyone remotely following proceedings not understand why they're delaying the VONC. That delay is a joint decision between the opposition parties for a specific purpose to get BoJo to extend first.

Perfectly clear simple position.

 

[Smores]

You forgot to mention they were also helped by the worst run GE campaign from a government in history. That won't happen again.

Still, can't wait to see what excuses are made when Labour fail to win another election. I'm sure the enemies from within and Israel will be blamed.

Haha funny israel, hilarious

 

[esmufc07]

Haha funny israel, hilarious

There's a reason they are only the second political party after the BNP to be investigated by the EHRC

 

[Sweet Square]

They don't really have a plan though, sitting on the fence and making no decision isn't a plan. Asking for a second vote isn't a plan. It's essentially putting a head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass.
.

Well we've made some progress. But I'll just repeat my point

Labour have a plan its that you just disagree with it. Which fine whatever but that different than saying Labour have nothing.

A second referendum and staying neutral(Allowing Labour MP's to back Remain or Leave) is a plan, you again can disagree with it but to state ''they don't really have a plan though'' is just untrue and odd.

In times like this, it's clear that people are after leadership. If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.
If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.

We are talking about a national referendum not running a local corner shop.

 

[nickm]

What's not to get?

They want him out, but they don't want him out. Not yet anyway, they want to wait so brexit is or isn't brexit so they can maybe or maybe not push for a GE.

Perfect sense.

They want him out in the way that is most damaging for the Tories. What's wrong with that? They are playing their tactical advantage.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

They are remaining neutral, it absolutely is sitting on the fence.

Agreeing to call a second referendum is the decision. People have already proved that they will not vote leave or remain along party lines (Labour or Conservative). So why are you so caught up on Labour not confirming what they will campaign for in a referendum which has not yet been enacted?

I think it makes perfect sense to run a second referendum. The country is split down the middle from the previous referendum and stuck in stasis. The detail has evolved from what was available 3 years ago. It's possibly the only fair and rational way to decide how to move forward.

 

[Sweet Square]

Agreeing to call a second referendum is the decision. People have already proved that they will not vote leave or remain along party lines (Labour or Conservative). So why are you so caught up on Labour not confirming what they will campaign for in a referendum which has not yet been enacted?

I think it makes perfect sense to run a second referendum. The country is split down the middle from the previous referendum and stuck in stasis. The detail has evolved from what was available 3 years ago. It's possibly the only fair and rational way to decide how to move forward.

Because admitting Labour have a plan on Brexit would mean there's no excuse to not vote for them in the next general election. The constant moving of the goal posts by Remain supporters, first it was Labour don't support a second referendum, now its Labour won't campaign as a party for Remain and finally if Labour did say they would campaign for Remain, it would be well Labour aren't a real Remain party because they don't have revoke in their manifesto.

Basically certain people on the centre to centre left are depressingly trying to find any excuse to vote Lib Dem.

 

[esmufc07]

Because admitting Labour have a plan on Brexit would mean there's no excuse to not vote for them in the next general election. The constant moving of the goal posts by Remain supporters, first it was Labour don't support a second referendum, now its Labour won't campaign as a party for Remain and finally if Labour did say they would campaign for Remain, it would be well Labour aren't a real Remain party because they don't have revoke in their manifesto.

Basically certain people on the centre to centre left are depressingly trying to find any excuse to vote Lib Dem.

There are a myriad of reasons why I'm, and a lot of others, are struggling to vote Labour anymore. You continue to simplify it though and be condescending to the very people who's votes you need.

 

[Sweet Square]

There are a myriad of reasons why I'm, and a lot of others, are struggling to vote Labour anymore. You continue to simplify it though and be condescending to the very people who's votes you need.

Such as ?

 

[esmufc07]

What are the reasons ?

Predominantly his anti-Semitism. I can't in good conscience vote for a party who's leader I believe to be a racist. His handling of Brexit since 2016 has been poor, and they've changed positions numerous times, confusing everyone in the process. His support for terrorist regimes (IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah). His (paid) appearances on Iran's propaganda channel. His shift of Labour from an electable, moderate party into an unelectable, far left one.

I just don't think he is a very nice man, and I find him to be quite sinister. He spoke of a more open and honest politics but he's just as bad as the rest of them when asked difficult questions.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Because admitting Labour have a plan on Brexit would mean there's no excuse to not vote for them in the next general election. The constant moving of the goal posts by Remain supporters, first it was Labour don't support a second referendum, now its Labour won't campaign as a party for Remain and finally if Labour did say they would campaign for Remain, it would be well Labour aren't a real Remain party because they don't have revoke in their manifesto.

Basically certain people on the centre to centre left are depressingly trying to find any excuse to vote Lib Dem.

But this is the issue, isn't it?

Corbynites (and I think you're being incredibly disingenuous to pretend this is a left/centre issue in the party) insist there is a master plan stitching it all together and act like it's everyone else's fault that they can't spot it. Everyone else thinks it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

But let's say it is a master plan and that Remain voters should vote for Labour because Labour will help the country Remain in the EU, how do you convince the Leave voters that you're keen to attract through this policy of neutrality that they should abandon their belief that leaving the UK when the time comes for a referendum on Labour's deal vs Remain?

 

[sun_tzu]

Such as ?

I think you will find a lot of people have a lot of different reasons

For me two major factors are that I believe the best thing for the UK is to remain in the EU...
I wish to back a party who will offer remain as their prefered option (either via revoke or an unequivocal commitment to backing remain in a subsequent referendum)
i do not trust a a show of hands by a bunch of unelected people in a room chanting ooooh jeremy corbyn to decide on government policy in this regard

Furthermore Id say that as the bar for an EHRC investigation is so high (basically they have to believe they have seen enough evidence that a prosecution is in the public interest as the evidence they have seen shows a probable conviction in a criminal case (i.e. beyond a resonable doubt and that the party has failed to put in place procedures to tackle this)... i think electing a party that is very likley to face criminal prosecution for racism goes againt my core beliefs

Add into that my local Mp is stepping down and I have no faith in the local party which frankly has turned into a 1970's student politics club with an added dose of antisemitism in picking somebody who is capable of fulfilling the duties required of a local MP

Furthermore the local polling and the brexit fudge would indicate that the seat although traditional labour will now break down to a Brexit/ conservatives vs Liberal fight and Id much rather use my vote effectively against farage.

I think corbyn would on a personal level be an unispiring and ineffectual leader

and meh loads more reasons but frankly thats plenty

 

[Smores]

But this is the issue, isn't it?

Corbynites (and I think you're being incredibly disingenuous to pretend this is a left/centre issue in the party) insist there is a master plan stitching it all together and act like it's everyone else's fault that they can't spot it. Everyone else thinks it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

But let's say it is a master plan and that Remain voters should vote for Labour because Labour will help the country Remain in the EU, how do you convince the Leave voters that you're keen to attract through this policy of neutrality that they should abandon their belief that leaving the UK when the time comes for a referendum on Labour's deal vs Remain?

Are you under the impression they'll be no remain campaigns unless Labour officially do one? Or that Labour voters won't listen to Labour MPs unless its got a "this message is endorsed by Corbyn" tagline?

Of course you don't because that would be daft. The outrage here is in a very thin scope of "Corbyn may be able to convince some leavers to vote Remaim". How many people do you think he'd actually convert?

Given as above he's apparently an anti-semite terrorist supporter

 

[esmufc07]

Given as above he's apparently an anti-semite terrorist supporter

Well argued.

 

[Silva]

Are you under the impression they'll be no remain campaigns unless Labour officially do one?

maybe we can roll out Alan Johnson again to inspire the country

 

[esmufc07]

maybe we can roll out Alan Johnson again to inspire the country

Nearly as inspiring as Abbot and Burgon.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Are you under the impression they'll be no remain campaigns unless Labour officially do one? Or that Labour voters won't listen to Labour MPs unless its got a "this message is endorsed by Corbyn" tagline?

Of course you don't because that would be daft. The outrage here is in a very thin scope of "Corbyn may be able to convince some leavers to vote Remaim". How many people do you think he'd actually convert?

Given as above he's apparently an anti-semite terrorist supporter

Not really, I'm questioning why Remain supporters should be expected to support a party that may or may not (tbc) support Remain in a future referendum rather than a party that more concretely supports their position on the issue right now.

There's plenty of things you're entitled to think about people who want to vote Lib Dem, especially the Lib Dems under Swinson; I'm simply struggling to think what Corbynites think the Labour party is offering people who think think that Remaining in the EU is the most pressing issue facing this country that the Lib Dems aren't, or why there is surprise that people that think that way are drifting towards a party that has taken a more definitive position?

 

[sun_tzu]

I thought you were gonna vote for the greens? They have a bigger problem with anti semitism than labour.

Then why have then not met the criteria for an EHRC investigation into racism... you know like the BNP oh and yeah Labour
Its basically your word against the EHRC... I suspect they are a bit better qualified and have access to quite a bit more info than you?
But clearly you must have evidence to libel yourself by publishing such a claim and Im sure you will be collating it to present shorty in a post?

 

[EwanI Ted]

Such as ?

Speaking for myself, those reasons are

* Remain is a pre-requisite for any party I'd vote for now. For me to vote for a party that "may or may not" back Remain is like asking me to vote for a party that may or may not oppose austerity.
* I think the Labour Party is headed for a major fall out once Corbyn leaves, and there's no viable replacement in sight. Once he goes, which will be in the next Parliament probably, I expect open warefare among the various Labour groupings. That's not appealing for an incoming Government.
* Specific policies that relate to my line of work (homelessness & housing) range from the impractical through to the downright poor, and make me doubt some of their other policies I know less about
* Labour are taking a "us vs them" approach, and I dont feel like "us" includes me any more.
* The two party system has been shown to be unable to deal with modern politics. I won't vote Labour simply to game the FPTP system, since that vote no doubt will be taken as explicit support of the party rather than a vote grudgingly given.

 

[Smores]

Not really, I'm questioning why Remain supporters should be expected to support a party that may or may not (tbc) support Remain in a future referendum rather than a party that more concretely supports their position on the issue right now.

There's plenty of things you're entitled to think about people who want to vote Lib Dem, especially the Lib Dems under Swinson; I'm simply struggling to think what Corbynites think the Labour party is offering people who think think that Remaining in the EU is the most pressing issue facing this country that the Lib Dems aren't, or why there is surprise that people that think that way are drifting towards a party that has taken a more definitive position?

I would have been tempted to vote Lib Dem but i dislike Swinson and i don't think revoke off the back of a GE is the right way. Labour are the only one offering a referendum so that's the definitive position. Lib Dem getting power and revoking won't be the end, it'll spur on brexiteers further and we'll loop back round next GE.

It's irrelevant really as you vote for whichever remain party may win in your constituency, if you don't then you simply can't complain.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Because admitting Labour have a plan on Brexit would mean there's no excuse to not vote for them in the next general election. The constant moving of the goal posts by Remain supporters, first it was Labour don't support a second referendum, now its Labour won't campaign as a party for Remain and finally if Labour did say they would campaign for Remain, it would be well Labour aren't a real Remain party because they don't have revoke in their manifesto.

Basically certain people on the centre to centre left are depressingly trying to find any excuse to vote Lib Dem.

Yep, and the goal posts will continue to move. No matter what they do will be framed negatively. If Labour back remain they will be "losing Labour heartlands to the brexit party or tories". If Labour back leave they are "losing the backing of centre left, lifelong Labour voters who will now vote LD".

The billionaire owners of most UK media outlets stand to lose out if Labour are elected. No surprise that their coverage reflects this.

Unfortunately the constant negative coverage has impacted some peoples opinions now. Tell the same lie enough times and people begin to believe it.

 

[Smores]

Then why have then not met the criteria for an EHRC investigation into racism... you know like the BNP oh and yeah Labour
Its basically your word against the EHRC... I suspect they are a bit better qualified and have access to quite a bit more info than you?
But clearly you must have evidence to libel yourself by publishing such a claim and Im sure you will be collating it to present shorty in a post?

Because they're a tiny party?

Here's some objective figures https://antisemitism.uk/politics/

More bad outcomes by percentage and cases per membership as well I'd assume

 

[esmufc07]

Unfortunately the constant negative coverage has impacted some peoples opinions now. Tell the same lie enough times and people begin to believe it.

Ah, so you're the enlightened ones and everyone else has just fallen for negative media spin. Gotcha.

 

[esmufc07]

Because they're a tiny party?

Here's some objective figures https://antisemitism.uk/politics/

More bad outcomes by percentage and cases per membership as well I'd assume

Also there's a difference between antisemitism within political parties, and an anti-Semitic leader.

 

[sun_tzu]

Because they're a tiny party?

Here's some objective figures https://antisemitism.uk/politics/

More bad outcomes by percentage and cases per membership as well I'd assume

think the EHRC are far better placed to make that decision - you know given thats their legal role

also your seriousley saying vote labour based on that website when this is what they have to say about labour

The supposedly anti-racist Labour Party has failed to firmly and consistently address antisemitism, even proving incapable of expelling a Holocaust revisionist, a senior MP who said that “Jewish money” controls the Conservative Party, and another prominent official who claimed that Jews were “among the chief financiers of the slave trade”. It has compounded its antisemitism problem by shrouding all disciplinary matters in secrecy under guidelines introduced by Baroness Chakrabarti, thus concealing its failure to enforce discipline. Furthermore, senior figures commonly claim that the Jewish community’s collective complaints of antisemitism are essentially fabricated for concealed political purposes.

pretty awful stuff Im sure you agree (the EHRC certainly seem to)